You want to start a newbie at 3 yards so they have instant feedback and gain confidence. You get the fundamentals down first: stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. Then you move the target out further. Starting at 25 yards, or even 25 feet just causes frustration if they don't have the fundamentals down. If you do, they wouldn't be asking about group size because they would already know how to shoot. It's possible the sights are off, or it could be 147 gr bullets that will shoot higher than 115s, but again, without the fundamentals newbies can't tell the difference.
Diagnosing Range Shooting
- Thread starter SailingOnBy
- Start date
I think your big hole at 11:00 suggests that is where your sights are placing your bullets. This can differ a little from what a machine rest does because that eliminates recoil against your hands from the equation, and they can cause a push one way or another by a little bit. It just means your rear sight needs to be drifted slightly to the right. If it's not your hands it is just your sights being where they are. You can check that with a laser bore sighting tool. Insert it in the barrel and see where it points. Rotate it 180° and look again. Your actual POA will be about half way between those points.
Distance to drift move the rear sight right:
Right Drift = POI inches left of center × distance between front and rear sights / range in inches
It looks from placing your holes over a copy of the B27 target I have, that you are about 0.9" left and 3.25" high. Using the above formula for your Glock, we have:
Right Drift = 0.9" × 6.02" / 300 inches = 0.018" to the right.
If you are standing at the firing line and holding the gun out 2 feet while shooting, then the actual range to the gun is probably more like 23 feet, in which case the drift would be closer to 0.020" to the right.
Shooting a lighter bullet weight will lower point of impact. If that's not an option, then the front sight needs to be shaved about 0.07" or replaced with a sight that much lower (same formula as above, but with the vertical error substituted in, and because we are looking at the front sight, it alters in the same direction you want the point of impact (POI) to move, rather than the opposite direction as you must do with the rear sight).
If we are correct that the big hole is the current sight POI, then the holes not in the group are mainly low and left. For a right handed shooter this is the classic result of a flinch sneaking in. Usually it is from attempting to force the gun to go off right at the exact moment the sights are perfectly aligned. One of the hardest things for a new shooter to learn is that some noise and wobble will always be in the hold and that the main thing is to focus on not disturbing the sights when the trigger releases the striker. If you try to force a release at an exact moment rather than letting it be off a tenth of a second or two, then the additional muscles you have to contract to accelerate the pressing of the trigger invariably increases your hand's force on the back of the frame opposite your trigger finger (in order to hold against the more rapid press) and that pushes a handgun down. The same contractions always bend your wrist slightly toward your body centerline, too, and thus the shots are low and left for a northpaw and low and right for a southpaw.
Distance to drift move the rear sight right:
Right Drift = POI inches left of center × distance between front and rear sights / range in inches
It looks from placing your holes over a copy of the B27 target I have, that you are about 0.9" left and 3.25" high. Using the above formula for your Glock, we have:
Right Drift = 0.9" × 6.02" / 300 inches = 0.018" to the right.
If you are standing at the firing line and holding the gun out 2 feet while shooting, then the actual range to the gun is probably more like 23 feet, in which case the drift would be closer to 0.020" to the right.
Shooting a lighter bullet weight will lower point of impact. If that's not an option, then the front sight needs to be shaved about 0.07" or replaced with a sight that much lower (same formula as above, but with the vertical error substituted in, and because we are looking at the front sight, it alters in the same direction you want the point of impact (POI) to move, rather than the opposite direction as you must do with the rear sight).
If we are correct that the big hole is the current sight POI, then the holes not in the group are mainly low and left. For a right handed shooter this is the classic result of a flinch sneaking in. Usually it is from attempting to force the gun to go off right at the exact moment the sights are perfectly aligned. One of the hardest things for a new shooter to learn is that some noise and wobble will always be in the hold and that the main thing is to focus on not disturbing the sights when the trigger releases the striker. If you try to force a release at an exact moment rather than letting it be off a tenth of a second or two, then the additional muscles you have to contract to accelerate the pressing of the trigger invariably increases your hand's force on the back of the frame opposite your trigger finger (in order to hold against the more rapid press) and that pushes a handgun down. The same contractions always bend your wrist slightly toward your body centerline, too, and thus the shots are low and left for a northpaw and low and right for a southpaw.
"...try it competitively once I get..." Do not wait to shoot matches. Nobody will laugh(certainly not with shooting like your's) and you will get free help. Shooters are just like that.
Start here, but I think it's more about sights needing adjusting. Way too consistent grouping for much of anything else.
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf
Start here, but I think it's more about sights needing adjusting. Way too consistent grouping for much of anything else.
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf
SailingOnBy
New member
I am trying to keep the front sight square and level with the rear sights, and place the X on the silhouette about where the center of the front sight's dot would be.
I suppose I'd have to say my trigger is centered between the pad and first joint of my trigger finger, possible more towards the pad? I'll have to try and pay more attention when I go shooting next.
Thanks everyone so far for the replies.
SailingOnBy,
(Just caught the initials
). Next range session, put up a blank sheet of paper or turn a target backwards and focus your attention on the front sight. Don't worry about where the hole goes. Just press the trigger so as not to disturb the sights. (I used to find it helpful to imagine I had balanced a dime on the font sight and wanted to drop the hammer without disturbing it.) Keep your eyes open through the discharge and watch where the front sight comes down. If if consistently lands left of the rear sight notch, you probably do have something in your grip biasing the muzzle. If that's the case, try shifting the gun slightly clockwise (from above) to see if you can adjust your hold so it naturally tends to return to a good sight picture, plus or minus a little tolerance.
Also, I should have mentioned dry firing practice. In order not to disturb the sights the old rule of thumb for pistol shooters used to be to dry fire three times for every live round you put down range. This was to train the habit of keeping the sight alignment still through the firing pin strike. If your gun maker recommends against dry firing in an empty chamber, get some plastic dummies to do it with.
(Just caught the initials
). Next range session, put up a blank sheet of paper or turn a target backwards and focus your attention on the front sight. Don't worry about where the hole goes. Just press the trigger so as not to disturb the sights. (I used to find it helpful to imagine I had balanced a dime on the font sight and wanted to drop the hammer without disturbing it.) Keep your eyes open through the discharge and watch where the front sight comes down. If if consistently lands left of the rear sight notch, you probably do have something in your grip biasing the muzzle. If that's the case, try shifting the gun slightly clockwise (from above) to see if you can adjust your hold so it naturally tends to return to a good sight picture, plus or minus a little tolerance.Also, I should have mentioned dry firing practice. In order not to disturb the sights the old rule of thumb for pistol shooters used to be to dry fire three times for every live round you put down range. This was to train the habit of keeping the sight alignment still through the firing pin strike. If your gun maker recommends against dry firing in an empty chamber, get some plastic dummies to do it with.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Dry fire with a laser target system intalled. If the laser doesn't move when you pull the trigger it is probably your sights. If the laser mover high left you are doing something wrong.
Well, not really wrong, just not quite right. I've had people make claims just short of Gecko45 realm, then watched the shoot much worse groups. Whatever is happening, it is happening reasonably consistently. That usually means the fix isn't that difficult.
Well, not really wrong, just not quite right. I've had people make claims just short of Gecko45 realm, then watched the shoot much worse groups. Whatever is happening, it is happening reasonably consistently. That usually means the fix isn't that difficult.
With a kid I would agree. An adult should be able to handle imperfection at 7. Maybe I'm wrong on that one.
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SailingOnBy said:
Also concentrate on centering the front sight between the rear blades. There should be equal amounts of light on either side of the front sight. A small lateral misalignment might be a source of your shots being pushed leftward bias.
SailingOnBy said:
I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet: When shooting for groups (i.e. pure marksmanship), I recommend using an appropriately-sized bullseye-type target (though not a Shoot-N-C type; see my comment about "peeking" below). It's a much better target, as it offers you a more precise aim point than a plain silhouette.
And, as others offered, stay focused on the front sight. Implicit in that is avoid peeking at the target between shots. Peeking is a bad habit and a real accuracy killer.