Spats McGee
Administrator
Since I started carrying, I have made an effort to run through as many possible interactions involving carrying as I can. Why? Because I like to have a plan. I don't like the thought of having a situation arise in which I have absolutely no clue how I'm going to handle it. Naturally, situations like muggings, home invasions, etc. are (by their very nature) surprises. However, I do plan for those situations in which planning is at least possible, like how to respond to LE if I'm stopped for a traffic violation, or how to handle the police if I'm ever (Heaven forbid) involved in a SD shooting.
Last Saturday, a situation came up (with no bad consequences, thankfully) for which I had never even considered a plan of action. I thought that I would put this situation in front of the wise inhabitants of TFL and get y'all's thoughts on it. So here it is: Mrs. McGee and I were out last Saturday morning doing our "Saturday morning rat-killin'." That means recycling, grocery shopping, etc. I was carrying, naturally. After she and I paid for our groceries, of course, we left the store. Our grocery store has those thingamabobs that have flashing lights on top to keep folks from stealing unpaid-for merchandise. They look sort of like metal detectors, but I guess they're RFID detectors? We had paid for everything, but the lights went off, anyway. I stopped and waited for some kind of personnel to respond, but nobody came over. Apparently, those things go off with some regularity, even when you're not stealing stuff.
As we walked to the car, loaded it, etc., I began to wonder how to handle the situation if it happens again. Some stores use off-duty, but certified LE, to handle their security. While I have some reservations about the authority of the police to disarm me, the grocery store lobby is really not the time or the place to argue that point. OTOH, if I were approached by store security, or maybe a clerk or manager, then I'd be faced with a different kettle of fish. Under Arkansas law, a person engaged in conduct giving rise to a presumption that he or she intended to shoplift may be detained by a merchant, an employee of the merchant, or a law enforcement officer. When an anti-shoplifting device is triggered by a person, that person may also be detained. This is known as the "merchant's privilege," if memory serves. If the detection device were to be activated and I were approached by an employee, I don't see myself arguing over the detention. I wouldn't care for it, but I'd wait patiently (assuming there wasn't some other emergency to which I had to attend).
For reference, here's the statute:
The questions are:
1) What to do if the manager/employee asks me to empty my pockets? My CHCL is in my pocket, and if I'm waiting on police to arrive, I'd prefer to keep that in my possession, as CCing without that is (at least considered to be) illegal.
2) I'm under no legal duty to inform a store manager or store security that I'm carrying, and I certainly wouldn't want it to sound like a threat if I did so inform, but . . . if they do ask me to empty my pockets and I decline, I could simply say "no, thank you." OTOH, I could simply explain that I decline to do so until LE arrives. As a 3rd option, I could explain that I do have a CHCL and I will only hand over same to a LEO. (I'm not real keen on Door #3 here.)
3) Assuming that the manager does somehow figure out that I'm carrying, I wouldn't be altogether too surprised if he or she asks me to surrender the gun. Now THIS causes me some heartburn. As mentioned above, if a LE asks me to hand it over, that's one thing. Having a store manager or store security (private, not off-duty LE) tell me to hand over my gun . . . not comfortable with that at all, having no earthly idea about that person's training, safety level, etc. With LEOs, I at least know they've had some training with firearms, and handle them regularly.
4) The question then becomes, if I decline and store security decides that they really need to disarm me (seems much more likely than a manager doing it), what then? Hand it over, or fight? The statute quoted above makes no reference to the merchant or an employee disarming me, so I do not see any way they have a right to do so. However, I really have no desire to explain to a judge how the situtation got to the point that I had to shoot a store security guard who was investigating me for allegedly shoplifting.
What say you, TFL?
Last Saturday, a situation came up (with no bad consequences, thankfully) for which I had never even considered a plan of action. I thought that I would put this situation in front of the wise inhabitants of TFL and get y'all's thoughts on it. So here it is: Mrs. McGee and I were out last Saturday morning doing our "Saturday morning rat-killin'." That means recycling, grocery shopping, etc. I was carrying, naturally. After she and I paid for our groceries, of course, we left the store. Our grocery store has those thingamabobs that have flashing lights on top to keep folks from stealing unpaid-for merchandise. They look sort of like metal detectors, but I guess they're RFID detectors? We had paid for everything, but the lights went off, anyway. I stopped and waited for some kind of personnel to respond, but nobody came over. Apparently, those things go off with some regularity, even when you're not stealing stuff.
As we walked to the car, loaded it, etc., I began to wonder how to handle the situation if it happens again. Some stores use off-duty, but certified LE, to handle their security. While I have some reservations about the authority of the police to disarm me, the grocery store lobby is really not the time or the place to argue that point. OTOH, if I were approached by store security, or maybe a clerk or manager, then I'd be faced with a different kettle of fish. Under Arkansas law, a person engaged in conduct giving rise to a presumption that he or she intended to shoplift may be detained by a merchant, an employee of the merchant, or a law enforcement officer. When an anti-shoplifting device is triggered by a person, that person may also be detained. This is known as the "merchant's privilege," if memory serves. If the detection device were to be activated and I were approached by an employee, I don't see myself arguing over the detention. I wouldn't care for it, but I'd wait patiently (assuming there wasn't some other emergency to which I had to attend).
For reference, here's the statute:
(a)(1) A person engaging in conduct giving rise to a presumption under § 5-36-102(c) may be detained in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable length of time by a law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee in order that recovery of a good may be effected.
(2) The detention by a law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee does not render the law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee criminally or civilly liable for false arrest, false imprisonment, or unlawful detention.
(b)(1) If sufficient notice has been posted to advise patrons that an antishoplifting or inventory control device is being utilized, the activation of an antishoplifting or inventory control device as a result of a person's exiting an establishment or a protected area within the establishment constitutes reasonable cause for the detention of the person so exiting by the owner or operator of the establishment or by an agent or employee of the owner or operator.
(2) Any detention under subdivision (b)(1) of this section shall be made only in a reasonable manner and only for a reasonable period of time sufficient for any inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the activation of the antishoplifting or inventory control device or for the recovery of a good.
(3) A detention under subdivision (b)(1) of this section by a law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee does not render the law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee criminally or civilly liable for false arrest, false imprisonment, or unlawful detention.
(c) As used in this section, “antishoplifting or inventory control device” means a mechanism or other device designed and operated for the purpose of detecting the removal from a mercantile establishment or similar enclosure or from a protected area within a mercantile establishment or similar enclosure.
(d)(1) Upon probable cause for believing a suspect has committed the offense of shoplifting, a law enforcement officer may arrest the person without a warrant.
(2) The law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee who has observed the person accused of committing the offense of shoplifting shall provide a written statement that serves as probable cause to justify the arrest.
(3) The accused person shall be brought immediately before a magistrate and afforded an opportunity to make a bond or recognizance as in other criminal cases.
Ark. Code Ann. § 5-36-116 (West)
The questions are:
1) What to do if the manager/employee asks me to empty my pockets? My CHCL is in my pocket, and if I'm waiting on police to arrive, I'd prefer to keep that in my possession, as CCing without that is (at least considered to be) illegal.
2) I'm under no legal duty to inform a store manager or store security that I'm carrying, and I certainly wouldn't want it to sound like a threat if I did so inform, but . . . if they do ask me to empty my pockets and I decline, I could simply say "no, thank you." OTOH, I could simply explain that I decline to do so until LE arrives. As a 3rd option, I could explain that I do have a CHCL and I will only hand over same to a LEO. (I'm not real keen on Door #3 here.)
3) Assuming that the manager does somehow figure out that I'm carrying, I wouldn't be altogether too surprised if he or she asks me to surrender the gun. Now THIS causes me some heartburn. As mentioned above, if a LE asks me to hand it over, that's one thing. Having a store manager or store security (private, not off-duty LE) tell me to hand over my gun . . . not comfortable with that at all, having no earthly idea about that person's training, safety level, etc. With LEOs, I at least know they've had some training with firearms, and handle them regularly.
4) The question then becomes, if I decline and store security decides that they really need to disarm me (seems much more likely than a manager doing it), what then? Hand it over, or fight? The statute quoted above makes no reference to the merchant or an employee disarming me, so I do not see any way they have a right to do so. However, I really have no desire to explain to a judge how the situtation got to the point that I had to shoot a store security guard who was investigating me for allegedly shoplifting.
What say you, TFL?