Denver Shooting. Are the parents really responsible?

Rob, no offense 'cuz I don't know you that well, but I think the above may be a rant.

I hope you didn't mean it. Fine parents because they let a boy have the same decoration on his hands that a girl can? No right to go against "acceptable" norms?

Who gets to define what "acceptable" norms are?

Let me share something with you. I shaved my head for years when it was unpopular. As soon as I began to grow the hair out, it became fashionable to wear flat tops and cue balls. Right now, my hair is at my shoulders. I have painted my fingernails black, blue, purple (my high school colors) and green. I wear an earring. I wore combat boots and black clothes when it wasn't "cool" to do so.
If my kid wants to do one of these things ( doubt it, they'll probably be uncool by then) I'll let him. His BEHAVIOR is what counts, not some objects like nose rings or nail polish. To be honest, I'm a little surprised that any advocate of the right to keep and bear arms would buy into the argument that an inanimate object (a t-shirt, a bottle of nail polish) can be responsible for crime. If that's true, let's just ban all those awful guns and get it over with. . . . .
 
Yeah, like I said, the fine thing was tongue in cheek. But the day that Boys wearing make-up and fingernail polish become acceptable.. I'm gonna have to think something is really wrong.

You are correct that a T-shirt or earing (okay, yeah, I had one...) are not in and of themselves indicators of some type of serious problem, but they are clues... If your kid is acting/dressing/smelling "a little different" that might be a big clue to have a long talk.. to check out his friends, to search every one of his belongings, read his email and screen his phone calls.

Some of the best kids in the world have a littel rebel in them, but every possible indicator that something *might* be wrong should be taken seriously be a parent who is serious about raising healthy, productive children, as far as I am concerned.

Honestly, the more I hear about these kids, the more they sound like people I knew in highschool... If they played Dungeons & Dragons it might turn out they I know their parents! But seriously, These paintball playing, wargame loving little whackos had more going on in their skulls than "a litle rebellion."

and, one more time, I do not see a paralell between the way free adults should be treated by a gov't and the way kids should be treated by the parents.. I thin kthe relationship is completely different.
 
Rob,

Obviously we agree that the parents have a moral responsibility to their children. I'll even stretch a bit (though it hurts some) to say we all have some obligations to "society". (Not as much as the government believes, however!)

But (chuckle) as you noticed upon trying to figure out a "system", neither of us want to trust a morally bankrupt government (including their public schools) to tell us what values we should teach our kids.

I don't pretend to have an answer either, Rob. But contemplate our former Texas Governor, Ann Richards, demanding that masturbation, same sex marriages, condom usage, etc. be taught to elementary school students and you can see why I freaked out....

It's a real bugger to try to resolve without trampling people's rights, beliefs, etc.
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Hey, Gwinny!
If you go to such an effort to display rebellion against the values of the majority, don't be upset when they consider you odd. If my daughter came into our home with a boy who had a shaved head, green fingernails, his face painted white with black lightning bolts, wearing a Marilyn Manson T-shirt and baggy pants - I'd probably have an aneurysm! And I didn't even mention body-piercing and tattoos!

All such signs of "individuality" were duck-tail haircuts and our shirt collar turned up when I was a kid. (Chuckle) I just ain't geared for punk rock, I guess. Break me in slooowwwly, OK?
 
Let's not overlook a major point in this, peer pressure. Parents can do their best, but who is it kids really listen to? Other kids, that's who. The killers are discribed as "outsiders" and "strange" by other kids at the school. While indeed they were strange, they developed a hatred for the popular kids who did not accept them. The phrase "alone in a crowd" comes to mind. A lack of acceptance from others can be very painful to a child. OTOH, making good friends can be a very positive influence.
Your child is much more concerned with what other kids think of them than what you think of them. Make an effort to get to know your child's friends. Encourage good friends, and let questionable ones know in no uncertain terms where you stand. Never assume you can control who your child hangs out with. Once that kid is out of your sight, the only control you have is the values they have learned from you. But, bear in mind that they will also learn from their peers.
 
I gotta agree with Rob to a point. My parents flat out did not let me pierce my ear, period. They said that as soon as I was an adult, I could make that decision but as long as I was their child in their house, it was not an option.
No, having a pierced ear does not make you bad, but the fact that my parents watched me that carefully indicated that they were keeping an eye on everything else too. Many parents don't give enough of a darn to set parameters for their kids, and that is seen as a symptom in how the kids dress.
Once you are an adult, do as you choose. As one of my rights of passage I got my ear pierced when I was 19. Then I got even more piercings and tattoos. Ooh aah, I stepped out on my own and that was a symbol that showed I was my own person. That is fine, I am an adult, and every person, at some point in ADULTHOOD has to step out and be their own person. Not when they are kids. I think my parents were glad that I was stepping out on my own, and I think that was a secret part of their plan: to give me something to do as a "right of passage". Kinda like letting your daughter wear makeup at a certain age, and suddenly she feels so "adult". It is a priviledge, not a right when you are a child. Once again, wearing black, shaving your head and piercing your body does not make you bad, many of my friends did when they were teens...but those friends also had parents that didn't concern themselves with their lives enough to care, and those kids were trying to get attention. My parents cared, they set parameters, and they kept an eye on what I was "into".
(Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that all kids that dress wierd have parents that don't care, I am saying that it CAN be a symptom of parents that don't care).


My thing about the parents is (as if we haven't heard enough opinions on this): how did those kids spend all weekend making over 30 bombs in their garage, and even their neighbors heard the noise, but the parents never once went outside to see what the kids were doing. Some of these bombs were BIG, made out of propane tanks, and also the home showed signs that they had been testing bombs in the house as well as perfecting timing devices etc for many months.
Over the recent weekend they were sawing the butts off of their shotguns and building bombs, and no one, all weekend, cared enough to just step out in the garage and see what was up, if nothing else, just to say "hello".
If I stayed in my room for more than a few hours reading a book or something, my parents would always come in and just say "hello". They weren't "spying" on me, they just wanted to say "hi". You know, they liked to talk to me, I am their son, that is what parents and kids do.

I tell you what: if my teenager is in the garage for more than a few hours working away on something, if even just out of courtesy and to show some interest, I would go out there and ask them "how's it going?".
Furthermore, if my teenager had his own website, I would care enough about my child, what he did in his spare time, how he felt etc to go see what his website was. I run my own website now in my mid twenties, and my parents still care enough to go check it out.
Don't these parents care what their kids are into and what they are doing? Not necessarily to "watch over them", but just because they are your children! Shouldn't they have some interest in what they are doing, and maybe some pride in their ability to run a website? At least enough to go look at it and say "hey, that is talented computer work...good job!".
These parent didn't give a damn about their kids, and it is evident not only in how they acted and dressed, trying to reach out for attention, but in the fact that these kids were doing all this and the parents were clueless.
I think that opinions on parenting seem to run as hot as abortion. But, no one can argue that parents should at least show enough interest in their kids' lives to know what their hobbies are, what they are doing for hour upon hour on the internet and what they are doing all weekend in the garage etc.

thanks for listening,
thaddeus
 
Rob, talking about kids painting their fingers etc., i never thought i'd see men dying their hair to cover up the gray. sheesh! what's the world comming to? ;)

not being a parent, it's hard for me to say
what it takes to be a good parent. BUT, all our friends are parents, and over the years i've been able to see how their kids turned out. i'm happy to say that they've turned out fine. this is not to say that they didn't have problems, drinkin', drugs, fights, etc.. the only sure enough common denominator
i've seen, is that these parents took interest
in what their kids were doing, being there when they were needed, and an unconditional
love for them no matter how they wore their hair, dressed, etc., and some got pretty wild
even for me. but the main thing i think they taught them was, right from wrong. not this, well that's ok, touchy, feely stuff. if they did wrong they were punished, if they did right, they were praised, and instilled in every one of them the knowledge of what is right, and what is not. having said that, when i was comming up, i had the same thing, but reckon i had more of the rebel in me than i should have, and am still paying for things i did years ago. but one thing they taught me that really took, was to take responsibility for my own actions. what all this crap i wrote is boiling down to is, i don't think that the parents are teaching their kids to take responsibility for what they do!! ok! that's it for me :)

longhair... your longhaired, tattooed, earring
wearing, fuzzy faced, 40 year old, paranoid, fat, loner, on & on & on... forum member :)

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fiat justitia



[This message has been edited by longhair (edited April 23, 1999).]
 
Okay, all former pipe-bomb hooligans, raise your hand... I'm with Rich and Rob, as is one of my very closest friends, who's now in an elite MD/PhD program - and HE was a loony. He and I both used to have weird colored hair, wear too much black (he still does!), and we both love our industrial music.

My point is that we were both freaks of a sort, but both of us had strong, principled fathers. I could do just about anything when was a kid as long as I kept out of trouble and got good grades. I now know my dad knew a lot more about my foolish stunts then I thought he did - funny how he always stepped in just before I did something REALLY stupid.
 
Well, let's see... I never made any pipe bombs; Do Nitroglycerine and thermite count?
(My high school chemistry prof. was really impressed with my recipe for copper oxide based thermite; It's more energetic than the iron based kind.)
 
Children need from parents:

1) Love … unconditional and they need to know it.

2) Admiration and approval … If you children cannot find admiration and approval from mom and dad they will find it somewhere else.

3) Instruction … Teach them how to live, do and think. This is by your example as well as by decree. Establish standards. Monitor what they do and who the hang out with.

4) Discipline … Enforce your standards. Punish wrongdoing. Be consistent in this.

5) Start from the day they are born and be attentive every day… don’t wait until they are 14 and in trouble.

Drop the ball on any of the above and the potential for problems increases. Drop one of the parents out of the picture and there is a potential for problems.

Do all of the above and your children may still have serious problems with their behavior. However it is far less likely ... but if they do recovery from that is more possible if a foundation had been laid from birth. It is an assumption but I will bet that Gunslinger and his wife had such a foundation with their daughter.

Some acts, such as mass murder, cannot be recovered from.

Eventually we all must chose how to live our own lives. Each individual must be held accountable for their actions.

The parents in this case may indeed have things to answer for. What they knew and when … what they knew and ignored … what level of preparation was preformed in the home … is likely to establish more then a small measure of culpability. After all if my dog bites you I am responsible … if my kid breaks your window who will pay? My kills 15 + at school …
 
Just a few points from my experience as a parent, and a child... :D

1. Concerning the earrings, long hair, funky colors, military boots, and other rebelliously indicitive accessories:

It is my experience that these things indicate an area of association. Association is a very powerful influence. An individual does not have to wear these thing to have a negative association. Several people I went through school with would look the part of a choir-boy, but act the part of the hellion, primarily because of those he/she chose to associate with.

I believe the most important questions I must answer concerning my children are, "Who are they associating with on a consistant basis?", and, "Is that association compliant with the rules and priciples that govern this household?", and,

"Do my children have a consistant positive interactive association with me?" Because I don't completely buy into the BS about "Quality time" as opposed to "Quantity time". I believe that there is no, "Either/or" but it's a well balanced blend of both.

2. I know very few parents that feel like they have done enough. Eventually, my children will reach an age of accountability. After that point, if they chose to go on a slaying rampage (such as the Littleton massacre), I would be the first in line to press for their execution, and I would also be the first to volunteer to be executed with them.

3. If the government steps in with their measuring rod for parental quality... Rob, don't even go there, because it violates every basic tenant of freedom, free choice and consequence that I know of, and it would be impossible to determine the quality of parenting that was invested into those kids.

Why? Because in the name of "diversity", and "Equal voice", and "Minority rights", and "Political correctness" the whole process would be caught in a morass of conflicting values and judgments. Beside adding another link in the chain.

I'm so damned worked up about that one point that I've forgotten the rest of them...

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."



[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited April 23, 1999).]
 
No!

It's true that the parents will always be the most influential factor in anyone's life. It's true that sometimes, parents ARE to blame for their kids. But realize that these gunmen are teenagers. They're old enough to do what they want, but apparently too young to know any better. And being teens, they probably did the exact opposite of what the parents would have wanted. Anyone who has teens or have been one ought to know that.

If you HAVE to find someone to blame, try blaming the gunmen.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited April 25, 1999).]
 
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