Denver Shooting. Are the parents really responsible?

G

Gunslinger

Moderator
I had to do some serious soul searching before making this post. Partially because of the heat that I know it will stir up and because it deals directly with a very personal part of my life. However after reading yet another post blaming the parents for the actions of the so called "children" I feel compeled to write this.

Several years ago, while still married to my now ex-wife, her 14 year old daughter, my step daughter, developed a drug addition. Nothing unique in this, sadly, it happens to literaly thousands of families in this country every year. Nothing unique except that my wife and I were both police officer and assigned to convert narcotics operations! To maintain at least a small amount of anonimity I will not name the department we were working for at the time.
We spent time with our daughter. Family outings. Hours helping with home work (often times during hours that we should have been sleeping ourselves) Always willing to listen to any problems and/or questions she might have. Met what we thought were all of her friends. Discussed current issues regarding drugs, peer preasure etc. Basically the whole 'Father knows best', Leave it to Beaver' typical all American family.

Being in the job we were we discovered the situtation VERY soon after it started. Also being in that job we were in a better position to be able to seek help from the courts and juvenile authorities better then anyone else in the city. The SYSTEM simply didn't work!!! We were not allowed to lock her in the house (even if we were at home) in spite of the fact that she would "slip out" and then be gone for days. (On each of these occassions every officer on the department would devote every free minute looking for her.) The authorities insisted that she remain in school. We would take her to school and then when we returned to pick her up she was gone again. At great expense we enrolled her in a private school equiped to handle "children' with just such problems. Same results. The juvenile authorities had facilities designed to help "children" like these complete with in house accredited schooling. Even though she had "progressed" to theft and prostitution to support her habit the court would not order nor allow the juvenile authorities to assist. After locating a doctor to file the necessary paper work we enrolled her in an adolecent behavoral modification unit, which is simply a private facility designed exactly like the state funded facility. Since the treatment was not covered by our insurance the total out of pocket cost to us was $17,000.00. I am happy to report that that was over fifteen years ago and she is now married, has children of her own and works at a good job. (The 17K was well spent. I'd put a smiley face here but frankly there isn't a damn thing about that entire situation that I feel like smiling about even today.)

I'm not defending the parents. I don't know enough information about them and their "child" rearing to form an opinion as to their suitability as parents. However I am informed enough about the diffculties involved with troubled "children" to not pass judgement on them quickly. If eventually we actually do receive factual information about the parents it may come to light that they are in fact irresponsible and were not suitable to raise a child. And if that is the case I'll provide the rope for a public hanging. But until then I'll reserve judgement.

If I've offended anyone with this I apologize. I have found it both refreshing and a little ironic that the "gun nuts" on this forum are so emotionally involved with this tragic event. There is more of a voice of reason, logical thinking and enlightened discussion taking place here then in the news media as a whole by the so called experts. I find myself wishing that some of the "antis" could read some of the post on this matter. Maybe then they would have a better understanding of gun owners and our genuine concern for issues that affect the country.

Gunslinger
 
You won't get any heat from me and I'm glad things turned out well for your daughter eventually.

I think, myself included, people get upset about the parents because the media, pundits, ambitious politicians, et al immediately have to have a reason and solution to these things....those solutions always go after the wrong things and people. All of us have a need to understand this sort of thing and hopefully stop them. I tend to blame parents because they are the first line...who on earth should know a child better than its parents? My son will be a year old next month, so perhaps I am unqualified to speak about parenting pitfalls...but, I can't help believing that the shooters' folks couldn't see how tweaked those kids were. I do see it as a moral crime to refuse to see your kid in a realistic fashion...."No, not my kid, he wouldn't do that"......Nah, he is just being a teenager". As a parent, if your kid is screwing up to any degree, you have to help them and your love for them doesn't decrease because you acknowledge reality.
I'm also not saying you have to be on your kids like a prison guard, but neither do you abrogate your responsibilities in the direction of permissiveness.

The news is reporting more stories about how these kids were scary...pulling guns and knives on other kids before yesterday, talking about killing and death, etc. Now if thats not screwed up and a clear declaration of a problem I don't know what is. So...who didn't pay attention to the signs? Parents and school personnel. But, to do something even as small as counseling would force these people to face reality....that they didn't do something right early on. The condemnation results when a clear problem is ignored until it blows up.
So, an incident happens and rather than face responsibility for it, the solution is to blame guns, the NRA, the nutcase gunowners. Gov't gladly steps in and says it will fix it with more laws and regulations, more bureaucracy and more platitudes along with a requisite decrease in your and my freedoms....yet, we didn't have a single whit of involvement.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Very good points made Gunslinger and DC. My boys are not teens yet but I have spent a few years in youth ministries in our churches.
My opinion is that there are 3 types of teens: 1) the kids are very similar to their parents, whether good or bad; 2) the kids turn out worse than their parents. The parents may be the best parents in the world and the kids are just wild. I have seen this many times, even with pastor's kids. 3) the kids turn out much better than the parents. I have seen teens come out of the worse homes, yet are absolute angels.
I am so glad that you went the extra mile to get your stepdaughter the help she needed.
With the church youth kids, I gravitate towards the bad kids, hoping I can make a difference in there lives. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
 
Gunslinger, I empathize. I have a 19 year old daughter who is going through a very similar thing now, only her mother & I are not LEOs. I'm glad it turned out well for yours, I can only hope the same for mine. Similar thing happened to my sister, and she turned out pretty well.

I've heard so many talking heads asking "Why?" Can no one grok to the fact that sometimes stuff happens with no rhyme or reason, and efforts to find out "why" are just wasted? If anyone truly had the answer to the "why" in this case, he'd be the most renowned psychiatrist in history. What ever motivates anyone to do anything they do? Why does bad stuff happen to good people? Why does good stuff happen to bad people? Why is there injustice? Why, why, why....because we live in a universe where the only certainty is uncertainty, and ulitmate security & safety are but illusions grasped at by minds too weak to realize that what little safety & security there is can be secured only by dint of one's concerted and unrelenting personal efforts.....

Off my soap box now.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
 
Thanks to all of ya'll.

Very well stated Richard. I sincerely hope that your situation turns out favorably. I only wish I had some sort of constructive advise that would help.

Gunslinger
 
People usually go with the simple answer when it involves children and the simple answer is to blame the parents.
The really simple answer is to blame the people who did the deed.By the time they are in high school they are making their own choices.
The only piece of the puzzle that doesnt fit for me is the reliable rumor that they had been boasting about the event for months on the internet and in homemade or classroom made videos.
In two short days "society" has blamed the parents, the school, movies,music,video games,sexual preference(s),guns, NRA,the government and no telling what else.
All of these and more could be factors in these guys' development,but I sure cant pinpoint it.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Gunslinger-
Thanks for sharing that. I happen to be one of the first to look to the parents. But let me put that in perspective. You were a good father and stepdad...look at what you did and how things turned out.

It would be heartless of me to blame each of these perps' parents. I do not. But, as these types of incidents grow, I have come to the conclusion that it is inappropriate to look to peers, movies and rock groups as the most likely problem/solution. While lack of parental guidance is not always the culprit, it is *ceratainly* the logical first place to look for the answers...and the only hope for redemption.

The Littleton case is even more pointed given the extent of aberrant behavior: dress, makeup, Hitler worship, inability to identify with mainstream peers and, of course, the explosives.

Let's face it. We all made pipe bombs as kids. But, I'd have to expect that these kids made and tested a *lot* more than we ever did. Somehow, I can't believe that involved parents could miss the signs in so many cases.

I say "many" because I believe that others in this click knew of and assisted in this "event". It's *inconceivable* to me that two members of an outcast group could plan such a crime and publish it on the internet while hiding it from their fraternity.

In short, I'm certain that the parents of some of the cretins who have committed such crimes in recent years were great. Others have a great deal to answer for.
Rich
 
Rich;What you say is true-mostly!I never made pipe bombs.We did make a few cannon. That way we could reuse the pipe.
The blame will go to GUNS.And olslick will ban something else.I wish FOUP were ready to go.It would be good timing.
I think these are exciting times that we are living in.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Ed---you said you think these are exciting times we're living in...

Isn't there an old Chinese curse, something like, "May you live in interesting times."?

:D

BAB




[This message has been edited by BAB (edited April 21, 1999).]
 
Here's my two cents worth:
I personally believe that the lack of personal responsibility and self respect that is generated by it are some of the major causes of crimes like these school shootings. As an example of this, these teenagers in Colorado were not stopped or punished for what amounts to threatening many of the students, making them think that maybe they were not even worth anothers notice.
Look at their victims of choice, athletes and vocal members of minorities, both of these groups of people usually believe in bringing up their status in society, the playing field, or both by working hard by and for themselves. Also, these groups ingrain a person with a felling of reponsibility to their team or race. This "trench coat mafia" group seemed to base their hatred of these groups on their success at their chosen areas, and some supposed great insult committed by the groups against them.
This is all to similar to what I see on my college campus, and at work, if someone does well, and you don't, it is ok to blame them or someone else for your failings and not your unwillingness to improve yourself. everyday I see people blame their upbringing, thier non-minority status, the other students race or sex, or even a supposed built-in bias against them for the poor performance. In my field of study, mining engineering, most of the students are from a low income area, or a foreign country. The vast majority do well despite these supposed problems because of one reason only, they are much more reponsible than many other people at this University and take it upon themselves to do well.
Unfortunately, this problem doesn't seeme to be limited to the individual anymore. Recently a prisoner was executed here for committing a couple of brutal murders. While he accepted his punishment, many of his family, friends, and supporters tried to blame everything from his race to drugs, and an extremly rare mental problem that he was proven not to have for his actions.
All of these things make me wonder, are we as a society doomed to suffocate on our own irresponsiblities?
 
Gunslinger,
Wouldn't it be nice if kids came with an instruction manual specific to not only their "make" & "model", but also that particular "serial number?" Alas, such is not to be. We have to make it up as we go along. We do our best, and usually it's good enough; sometimes it's not. Sometimes it just takes a long while to see that the good has sunk in. Were my parents still alive, they'd have a hard time believing the adult I am today was the same kid they raised. They would be pleased. I can only hope that one day, I'll be able to say the same.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
 
Gunslinger,
Again, I am a victim of my own “fuzzy thinking”.

(Long, rambling post deleted by Dennis.)

In one respect, raising a child is similar to performing CPR. You do your best. You hope and pray for a favorable outcome. But all you can do, is all you can do. Sometimes, despite the most heroic efforts, we struggle in vain.
The parents (or the rescuers) I would hold responsible would be those who do not do their best.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 22, 1999).]
 
Most of the regular reads of these forums know that I am a Boy Scout leader and have been for over eleven years. I'd like to share some of the things I have learned.
Some parents are, in their opinion, too busy with their work or their own life to be bothered by their children. They pay little or no attention to their children, yet are completely shocked and surprised when these kids get into trouble.
Some parents try to raise their kids right, but turn a blind eye to any possibility that they may do wrong. When these kids do something wrong and get into trouble the parent's response is denial. They refuse to believe that their child could do such a thing and will even go to great lengths to defend the child despite hard evidence that the kid is guilty.
Some parents, unfortunatly, just don't give a damn.
And then there are parents who do everything right. They pay attention to their kids, spend time with them, teach them and take good care of them. However, sometimes despite all of this, the child goes bad.
Teenagers are by nature rebellious creatures. they are at a time in their lives when they are trying to find themselves, to discover just who they really are. It is quite normal for them to question authority, to experiment with danger and push everything to the limit. Most learn from this difficult period of trial and error. Some don't. For those who don't, now is the critial time for parents, teachers or other responsible adults who may be close to them to step in and do whatever it takes to straighten these kids out. Unfortunatly, far too many don't and a kid who could have been saved ends up lost. Sadly, we must also accept the fact that dispite our best efforts, some kids can't be saved.
Bottom line: Parents are the first and best hope for our children. Don't let them down.

[This message has been edited by Grayfox (edited April 22, 1999).]
 
Lots of good thoughtful posts here, and thanks, Gunslinger for kicing it off. At the risk of promoting deceased equine flagilation, all I can add here is the observation that the only guarantee that comes with kids is that they're a lot of work. We all know of kids who went amuck despite the best, conscientious efforts of their parents, as well as kids who turn out great dispite no discernable effort by their parents, and everything in between. However, I've got to agree with the two points that keep popping up here - parents are the biggest single influence in a kid's life (one way or the other), and that ultimately, the resposibility/accountability for any deed must rest with the individual who performed it.

JMO, M2
 
Gunslinger,

In many ways, I think you've proved the point that parenting is vital. No amount of parenting, attention, etc, can possibly prevent all problems/difficulties from occuring. However, many parents don't have the necessary crisis management skills to deal with those that arise. In the case of your step daughter, you and your ex-wife showed excellent parenting skills. You gave the attention and the environment for things to go well. When they went south anyway, for whatever reason, you stepped in and managed the crisis. You went to great personal and financial lengths to solve the problem and get her on the right track, and are to be commended for your actions.

As a former special ed teacher, I wish I had seen more parents like you. Unfortunately, my general experience with parenting (and yes, I'm generalizing) is that many parents expect the schools to solve their problems for them. While we did our best, if parents didn't follow through at home, there was nothing that we could do that would have any lasting effect. I'm afraid (and again, speculating and generalizing, I have no proof of this, just a thought) that in many cases such as the recent tragedy, the parents didn't follow through. Either they weren't aware, (which is highly possible, we all know how tricky teens can be,) or else they thought it was a phaze, or they thought the school would take care of it. There is also a chance that they did everything right, and their kids still screwed up. Of course, on a darker note, the parents could have nurtured the alleged racial loathing and anti-social attitudes the teens held. We don't have enough information to know for sure, and I doubt we ever will.

OK, I'm rambling now, so I'll stop.

Aahzz
 
Thankyou for posting that difficult to read story, Gunslinger. While I and many others are inclined to point fingers at parents (who ultimately should be the most important adult figures in any childs life), you have shown that in some cases the matter is more complex and heartwrenching than we would like to believe. It is so much more comforting to blame first and ask questions later.

That said, the scope of the preparation that went into the Colorado massacre and outbursts that led up to April 20 do not leave the adults or a number of teenagers in a good light. No one put the pieces together, no one tipped the authorities off.

I do believe it was in Delaware - a young boy going door to door on some school project or another was raped and murdered by Sam Manzie. Yet another troubled teen, Sam had his own website. He also used public transportation to repeatedly visit a child molestor a great distance away. Sam's parents attempted to have him recieve treatment under lock and key but during one of their futile attempts, a judge loudly berated them and refused to remove the boy from his parent's custody. They simply could not watch him every moment and so...
 
As a former Pipe-bomb maker, I must agree with Rich. In this case it looks like there was a complete lack of parental influence over these guys.

If you let your kids dress and look like Marilyn Manson, in any way, I think you should be fined in the first place. Make-up on boys: min $1000 fine, "Gothic" accessories: $50 per item ($100 if it is pierced into them).

That may be a little tongue in cheek, but I seriously think that parents need to step in and make thier children conform to some sense of "acceptable" standards. My wife and I argue about my 13 year old son wearing his shirts untucked.. so we have it pretty mild, but I think we would both agree if he painted his fingernails black that something was wrong...

Furthermore parents should know what their kids are reading, listening to, talking about, watching, etc, just about 20 hours of the day.. Let the kids have some REM type deep dreaming sleep to themselves, other than that.. open the doors, look through the closets, etc, etc...

Do I think adults should be treated this way be the gov't .. NO.. obviously, but wee need to establish certain standards of behavior and responsibility in our kids before we let them out of the house to be "free" citizens..

Too many frekain liberal parents think that the same rules that should apply to free Adults should apply to children.. "HELL NO!", I say..

They are Property.. Prisoners even. They don't have rights to privacy from their parents.. they don't have the right to be an "individual" against acceptable norms....

Parents need to stop worrying about "stiffling creativity" and start worrying about TRAINING kids to become responsible adults.

Those os you who give us examples of Good Parenting not being enough are missing the point... If the parents of these freaks WERE NOT good parents, then they should be held responsible. IMHO, There should be a trial to determine just how responsible they are/were.
 
Rob,
I realize you are having a "tense" day. But ye Gods! You, of all people, saying the government should determine who is a good parent and who is not? The same folks that bring us EPA, BATF, IRA, the Post Office, etc. are going to judge ME AS A PARENT?
NO WAY! NO TIME! NO HOW!

If you want Janet Reno in your home feel free but by God you better bring guns to get her, Hillary and that bunch into my home.

Wait a minute. You were out of town.....
OK! I know you are an alien! Bring back our Rob!

(mumble, grumble. "Good Parenting" trials my rosy red rectum.)


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 22, 1999).]
 
WEll, maybe the wording was a bit strained..

Not a trial per se to gauge their "parenting".. but, try this:

If a manufacturer makes a product, and through poor quality control, that product hurts/kills someone, then that manufacturer could be held resposnible. A trial could be held to see if there is any blame to be placed on teh manufacturer.. or if it was just an uncontrollable accident, etc..

Why not have a trial to see if the Parents were negligent in their Job of properly producing a product.. the kids..

Does that sound better?

Not Really? hmmmmmm, I need to think about it a little more. I really do think the parents should be held responsible, if they had not exhausted every effort to get a handle on their kids.
I guess the idea of a "parenting trial" sounds all wrong.. but what else would you call it? "Product Liability" trial ain't gonna fly, either.

Put it this way.. if one of YOUR kids (anyone reading this, indcluding me) did this, would you FEEL responsible?

I say "Hell, yes!".. so If I FELT responsible it seems like I would be willing to pay a price for my responsibility.

Now, here is where my wife chimes in: "They've paid enough, they lost their children.."..

I think that is a load of crap.. Lot's of other parents have paid that same price, but they did nothing wrong.. so these people need to pay even more if they were really as negligent as parents as I believe they were.
 
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