Denial of reality

Can anyone older than me (I am 32) possibly point a specific reason why ''feel good'' replaced the reality that bad guys exist and a few need lead injection therapy?

It hasn't. You are just suffering from "In the gold old days..." syndrome. It is a form of nostalgia which is a form of self deception.

It is interesting that you entitled the thread, "Denial of reality" and asked for an explanation for events prior to 1970. Yep, the people in the 1960s, 50s, and 40s were all about reality. People used to leave their doors unlocked, keys in the ignition, and thought "duck and cover" was a valid for of defense against atomic bombs. I grew up watching public service TV commercials about the dangers of leaving keys in the ignition of the car, LOL. People believed crime would not happen to them. That form of denial continues today. After all, you would not want to have to admit to your lazy self by taking the keys from the ignition and locking the car that you might live in a place where a crime could occur.
 
As one who has a Masters Degree in Sociology, I may offer a humble opinion, and feel free to treat it as such.

I believe that this society began a downward spiral when it became fashionable to be a "victim" of some sort or another. People were going on talk shows and television interviews and talking about how they were a victim of this and a victim of that, and everyone was supposed to feel sorry for them.
I believe that the spiral steepend dramatically when our society became extremely litigous, and people were afraid of doing what they knew was right or what was for the good of society when they ran the real risk of being sued for it. When the first criminal who sued a homeowner for being injured when he broke into the home to do harm or other, it was the beginning of the end. People KNOW what the right thing to do is, but they are afraid of the consequences doing that good. How many times have you allowed that screaming, misbehaving child in the grovery line to act that way and not say anything? You did not want to cause a problem or confrontation with the parent. How many times have you let some minor wrong go because you did not want to bother with the possible consequences.

The people who open their mouths and spew garbage have been allowed to do so for too long by those who should have opened their mouths, yet chose not to.

That being said, I know from watching how people react to disasters and difficulty and I can say without hesistation that Americans are at their best when things are at their worst.

If we could stand together as a group (voting block) we could easily get the reforms we need, but people are afraid of the consequences and the disruption of the routine of their lives.

The good news is that all things are cyclical, and I have seen signs of change and the change is for the better.
 
Change occurred in mid 60's and grew like a tornado in the 70's, cause, haven't a clue, I think television had a large impact and the Vietnam war.

It's been pretty much a trip into weird land since and no improvement in
sight.
 
1963

While society has been slowly changing since the Industrial Revolution, and the civilization and growth of our nation has gradually turned us from a rural nation to an urban one, with the focus of society more on collectivism than the individualism needed (and preferred) for a rural society, I believe the one major tipping point for the last half century would be the 1963 assassination of President Kennedy, and particularly the aftermath.

After the initial shock wore off, the nation wanted answers, and the only official answers we got was the report from the Warren Commission. And that report did not provide enough (or according to some, the right) answers. This led to a general feeling of distrust in the honesty of the Federal govt, which had never been felt before. Even though many people still believed that our govt was always working in our best interest, and had always done so, so many people felt that there were things they knew, but would not tell us that a general feeling of suspicion began to develop. Where as before, our govt, which had won WWII, and was protecting us from the Russians (communism), the idea that they were deliberately misleading us began to become part of the popular culture. It didn't happen overnight, but it did happen.

Aided by the news media (who felt the same way), everything the people in govt did became targets for closer scrutiny than was customary before. The Vietnam war, and the news media, for the first time being able to bring the war into America's living rooms every night played another large part. The mishandling of the Vietnam War (fighting without any clear idea of achieving a victory) further increased the people's dissatisfaction with our govt. The Peace movement, and the counterculture revolution of the "hippies", the popularized use of recreational drugs, the govt's often heavy handed and cruel attempts to control the people, the civil rights movement, all were ingredients in the stew that has fermented for the past 40 odd years leaving us with the stinking rotten mess we have today.

There is no one point anyone can point to and say "Here is where it all went wrong", only numerous points where one can say "Here there was a change, greater than before". Some of the changes were large, and others small, but all had effects that grew and changed over time.

Somewhere in our law schools the idea that "better 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be hanged (or go to jail) became the popular standard, and eventually came to be the accepted "proper" ideal. Lawyers, judges, and even politicians trained to this standard came to dominate our legal and political system. A hundred plus years ago the idea that "if we hang an innocent man every once in a while it is tragic, but it is the price we must pay for getting the guilty, and protecting society" was the popular and proper ideal. That has changed.

Another contributing factor in the past century has been the growth of the insurance industry. I am not against insurance as a concept, it is a pretty good idea, generally, BUT, one real world consequence of the power and wealth of the insurance industry has been the idea that since insurance will replace or compensate you for stolen/damaged property, you ought to have insurance, so you were no longer justified in defending your property. Over time, we generally lost the legal right to use (deadly) force to defend our property, which had always been recognised before. We didn't hang horse thieves and cattle rustlers because horses and cattle were as important as people, but because they were people's livelihoods. And outside of neighbor's and church charity, there was no replacement. If you stole a man's money, you went to prision. If your stole his plowhorse, you took away his means to grow food, and more. You went a long way towards killing him and his family, and it was considered a much more serious crime, so when caught, you hung. After insurance companies established themselves, it became more morally acceptable to pay a portion of your hard earned wages, for your entire life, to an insurance company rather than defend your property (including your money!).

While made into popular heroes for the entertainment of people who were never affected by them, the bank robbers and train robbers of the Old West were hated by the ordinary folk, because they stole their life's work, and there was NOBODY who would replace that! That is why ordinary folk formed posses, and one some occasions fought it out with the bank robbers in the streets (such as Northfield Minn), to protect their money. There was no FDIC to replace your money, when the bank got robbed, your life savings were just gone, and gone forever!

The Great Depression, and Prohibition were other huge turning points, affecting how the people felt about how govt handled our lives, and the reason why moonshiners and even bank robbers became popular icons, because these people were beating the system. Even though bank robbers stole from us, they were daring glamorous figures, at least for a time.

WWII, and later the Cold War brought the country back closer to being content and trusting of our govt, but not completely, as not all of us forgot what our Founding Fathers knew.

FDR pushed this country further on the path of socialism than anyone before (basically prohibiting common ownership of automatic weapons and personal ownership of gold, among a host of other things), and had it not been for the insanity of the Second World War, and the US role in winning it, I believe FDR would not be considered by history as the great man he is often regarded as today.

I could go on, but there are nearly as many views of where we went wrong and right as there are people. Your question has no simple easy answer, only that our situation today came about as a result of the best of intentions, and the law of unintended consequences.
 
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" is a quote attributed to William Blackstone.

The Supreme Court first commented on the issue in 1895, when the majority opinion in Coffin v. United States cited Athenian law, Trajan, Fortescue, Hale, and Blackstone all at once, to underscore the long history of the presumption of innocence, but refused to commit to an actual number. The Court did not revisit the issue until Henry v. United States , which established that "it is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches, that the guilty sometimes go free than that citizens be subject to easy arrest."

FDR's presidency should be evaluated based on the circumstances he faced. There was a real possibility of revolution and severe crisis faced this country. The status quo was not working.
 
My opinion is that there is no such thing as personal responsibility anymore. It's always the fault of society when someone turns out to be a waste of human flesh. In today's age, we pump kids full of Ritalin and spend huge sums of money curing ADD. When I acted up as a kid, my Dad whipped my ass and didn't worry about having me diagnosed. Having grown up in the 60s and 70s, I've really seen the world turn into a place I dread in many ways.

The one thing I taught all my children (besides how to shoot and play poker) is that you - and you alone - are responsible for your actions.

BTW, I'm 52 years old; a retired military member; have 2 kids that served (one goes to Iraq in January); and left liberal Minnesota and enjoy living in the South...
 
44 Amp

thank you for your thoughtful and well reasoned response. Posts like yours are why i come here...
 
It was said that I suffer from ''gold old days'' syndrome. I don't see how seeing as don't have too many good old days to remember.

The condition has gotten worse and markedly so. I was trying to determine how. It is known that crime has been with us since day one. Even animals commit acts against one another and they have been around far longer than us.

Lots of people can remember when it was generally safe to leave the house unlocked and it was highly unlikely that your vehicle would be stolen regardless of wether or not you left the keys in it. Granted this does not apply to the major urban areas that have been in existance far longer than the newer rural and subrural/suburban towns. Crime has plagued those area for quite some time, but it has gotten worse there to.

I would like to submit that I believe part of the downward spiral has also come from the removal of peace officers and their replacement with LEO. For the most part people used to trust the police and maybe were on personal terms with them provided the area had a beat cop (I really wanted to be a beat cop when I grew up only to discover that I would be expected to be a para military law enforcer). Officer so and so could actually investigate any problems (now days you get a detective who works bankers hours) and complaints while the people felt they were actually being protected to limited degree. No there is distrust on both sides. Police see us as potential threats to their lives regardless of why they are dealing with you and the public has no desire to be friendly in return. Being polite to police is not the same as friendly.

This trend has given criminals an edge because law abiding folks are less likely to contact the police. Who calls someone about a crime when you will be treated like a criminal as well? Even asking a cop for directions means he will a check on you for warrants.

Then there is 911. Great for emergencies if you have some time to spare. This phone system has instilled a false sense of security that when you call the cavalry will come in a flash and save the day.

I blame people for refusing to actively take part in their own self preservation. If a person is afraid of guns there are lots of places and classes to help alleviate those fears and possibly help them to determine which firearm is right for them. You would think that at the very minimum these people would want a very effective means of defense in their homes to defend their children. We have gun safes for a reason. If these people think owning, maintaining and practicing with a firearm is inconvenient why haven't they considered how inconvenient it is it to be murdered and/or have to bury a spouse or child due to the criminal element.

Finally, I blame the statistics theory. The idea that ''it won't happen to me'' has taken hold. You are more likely to die in a car wreck than be murdered so why bother with self defense? I say that taking that chance is as good as painting a target on your head.
 
Yes, and in the good old days where it was so safe, everyone was always shocked when their houses were burgled and their cars were stolen. Why? Because they all suffered from the idea that "It can't happen to me" and "It doesn't happen around here."

CDH, you may not be old, but you are a sufferer. Every generation feels as they decline in age that things are going to hell. Politicians since the early 1800s (as far as I am aware) in the US have campaigned on the issues of the declining American society. Apparently, it has always been better in the past. Food was better. Streets were safer. People were more polite. People were more responsible. In the good old days, people even seem to forget about the ravages of the times.

Of course, in the good old days, the population was remarkably smaller than it is today. America suffers like many places with a fixed amount of land and and expanding population. Increasing population densities is virtually never seen as being beneficial to the overall welfare of the population.

You don't have to be very old to suffer from the self deception that things were always better in the past. It is part of the memory process for many people.
 
The damage done by King FDR to the Constitution is the idea that government is inherently good, and that central fallacy is perpetuated by the donkey party. The Constitution was written from the mindset that government is inherently bad.
 
The real answer is Mrs. Paul's Fish Sticks and affordable school lunches.

Our country went to pot precisely after cheap fish sticks were available to an entire generation of school children.

Before that time, even amid a Japanese emporer and a German dictator, people in the USA slept with their doors open.

The timing of this plan is undeniable.

The Trilateral Commission, flush with a wave of cash from Euro-Sino conspirators, dumped scientifically altered mercury into prime fishing areas, while funding underwritten school lunch programs.

While my Dad studied in college, I was so zonked on Commie mercury fish, the only thing I did was chase women, guzzle tequila and wear out Harley engines.

The Euro-Sino fish conspirators have beaten me...
 
You don't have to be very old to suffer from the self deception that things were always better in the past. It is part of the memory process for many people.[/QUOTE


It would appear there are those who are in denial of the condition of our society, It's ok to live your life to the best of your ability and be happy however you seem to believe things always improve in society and if in truth you believe that it is simply incorrect.:barf:
 
wingman said:
It would appear there are those who are in denial of the condition of our society

And just exactly how is "now" really different from "then"?

Did you ever really listen to the words of "Mack the Knife"?

It is the story of a serial killer that robs the dead and who uses gloves to evade police. They even list the names of the victims.

How is a 'highway' man truly different from a home invader?

A old pirate has now been replaced by a new pirate. Yes, piracy is once again on the rise.

My nose was broken twice around 1968. Will it hurt less now?
 
The real answer is Mrs. Paul's Fish Sticks and affordable school lunches.

Our country went to pot precisely after cheap fish sticks were available to an entire generation of school children.

Oh sure, it's always Mrs. Paul's fault! Without her there wouldn't be cheap fish tacos.
 
You are all wrong. I am older than most all of the above. The cause was Rock & Roll... Elvis, Little Richard, and hot rods. That was the start of the undoing of this country. But we had more fun than any of you ever will. Now you and our children have to live the lesser life. Oh well, somebody had to live the good times.:D
 
Reduced family size has probably got something to do with it. When you've got ten kids, you can't keep track of them and if one or two don't make it, you've still got eight left. When you only have two kids, you focus on them and raise them like princes. That kind of parental focus on the kids may have created the monster 60s generation who are now the Liberals.


Other segments of the population went the other way, abandoning marriage as a concept and letting the kids raise themselves, producing today's gang members and prison population.


As a result, we've got at least two main categories of dysfunction: the unsocialized cavemen who commit the crimes and the effete, self-absorbed blissninnies who can't be bothered.
 
44amp, the time you speak of was all before i was born, but it makes good sense to me. I must say that I agree with you, for the most part. Thanks!
 
Did I miss where is said they are members of the Communist Party?


From Here: http://www.postchronicle.com/commentary/opinion/article_21219819.shtml

The Democratic Progressive Caucus (DPC) is an organization comprised of about sixty Members of Congress. It was founded in 1991 by Rep. Bernie Sanders, former socialist mayor of Burlington, VT and member of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA). The DSA describes itself as, "the principle U.S. affiliate of the Socialist International."

The DPC advances its communist agenda behind innocuous sounding phrases, such as social and economic justice. The three core principles of The Progressive Promise are:

1. Fighting for economic justice and security for all. (Code for: We're going to 'eliminate poverty and suffering' by taking away all of your possessions and redistributing them.)

2. Protecting and preserving our civil rights and civil liberties. (Code for: We're going to 'eliminate' all differences and pound everyone down to the lowest common denominator).

3. Promoting global peace and security. (Code for: We-your Superiors-will finally feel secure and at peace once agendas 1-2 have been carried out to completion.)

In "Pelosi - Leader of Progressive Caucus," it was revealed: "Until 1999, the website of the Progressive Caucus was hosted by the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA). Following an expose of the link between the two organizations in World Net Daily, the Progressive Caucus established its own website." (WorldNetDaily.com, Nov 11, 2002)

On the website of the DSA it boldly declares: "We are socialists...Democracy and socialism go hand in hand...wherever...democracy has taken root, the vision of socialism has taken root as well."
 
Back
Top