Dems Want Iraqis To Pay Up: With Oil
- Thread starter xd9fan
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Kreyzhorse
New member
Why shouldn't they pay to rebuild their own country?
Curtis(USAF)
New member
Seems like a clear and easily negotiable solution time to me. Should the US leave Iraq? Lets ask the Iraqi government, How much oil are you willing to pay to ensure the American Security presence for the next year?
None? You saying you can handle the insurgency and the nation building on your own? Okay, we'll grab our stuff and be leaving. Ya'll have fun.
What, your willing to pay Xmillion barrels a year for our presence for the next five years, negotiable upon the end of that term? Sweet. Sign right here, and get those tankers rolling.
None? You saying you can handle the insurgency and the nation building on your own? Okay, we'll grab our stuff and be leaving. Ya'll have fun.
What, your willing to pay Xmillion barrels a year for our presence for the next five years, negotiable upon the end of that term? Sweet. Sign right here, and get those tankers rolling.
War for oil WAS appauling, now it is fine.
US military become soldiers for hire?
When the reason becomes money over protecting America and it's interests we are dealing with people hat have no business leading our nation. For Pelosi to say that she's fine with Iraq for money is a revealation of her true lack of moral substance, lack of respect for those in uniform, and lack of courage of conviction. How many times did she claim this war was wrong of moral grounds?
Petreaus and Crocker already have in place Iraq taking the financial burden for thier security. That has and will further increase. For Democrats to claim that this is their initiative is dishonest.
US military become soldiers for hire?
When the reason becomes money over protecting America and it's interests we are dealing with people hat have no business leading our nation. For Pelosi to say that she's fine with Iraq for money is a revealation of her true lack of moral substance, lack of respect for those in uniform, and lack of courage of conviction. How many times did she claim this war was wrong of moral grounds?
Petreaus and Crocker already have in place Iraq taking the financial burden for thier security. That has and will further increase. For Democrats to claim that this is their initiative is dishonest.
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The is a difference between using money and taking care of America and using America to take care of money. Yes, money matters. But when you start realizing that what makes currency valuable is that it represents hours of life in that it took the effort of someones finite time of living to generate the wealth represented.
Getting money isn't the point. Money matters as a tool not a goal. When money is the goal your lost. Many people die rich and are forever forgotten. All of us WILL die. A day will come when we have been dead for SO LONG there will remain nobody alive that knows we EVER lived. Your impact won't be the money you make or spend. It will be only the lives you impact. For most that will be the value of the children we leave behind.
OIF is already being funded at a greater and greater level by Iraq itself. Their expenditures already exceed ours. Ours is going down, theirs up. What we leave behind there, the impact of the lives there, is what will determine if it was worth it. Liberty is the force that is making Iraqis ally with us, not money. The money won't mean squat in history. The fire of liberty spreading through the middle east will.
The suggestion we are willing to give the lives of our soldiers for money is so far off point it makes one wonder if the person making that suggestion gets the scope of what is taking place.
If you sincerely believe that those that don't subscribe to love of money are living in fantasy land of idealistic horsepucky then what is your perspective of money?
See the signature line below...........
Getting money isn't the point. Money matters as a tool not a goal. When money is the goal your lost. Many people die rich and are forever forgotten. All of us WILL die. A day will come when we have been dead for SO LONG there will remain nobody alive that knows we EVER lived. Your impact won't be the money you make or spend. It will be only the lives you impact. For most that will be the value of the children we leave behind.
OIF is already being funded at a greater and greater level by Iraq itself. Their expenditures already exceed ours. Ours is going down, theirs up. What we leave behind there, the impact of the lives there, is what will determine if it was worth it. Liberty is the force that is making Iraqis ally with us, not money. The money won't mean squat in history. The fire of liberty spreading through the middle east will.
The suggestion we are willing to give the lives of our soldiers for money is so far off point it makes one wonder if the person making that suggestion gets the scope of what is taking place.
If you sincerely believe that those that don't subscribe to love of money are living in fantasy land of idealistic horsepucky then what is your perspective of money?
See the signature line below...........
shepherddogs
New member
I'm with Bruxley.
I wasn't talking about private funds, everyone can do what they like with them. It's not important to the discussion. Public funds, however, will always be spent and saved with a certain disregard for human life and the things we hold to be important as individuals. Things get murky and personal ethics get crushed under the wheels of necessity. That's the way it has always been, and always will be.
They don't want our liberty. They want to be told how to live and forced to live that way under threat of decapitation. Democracy is poisonous to Islam. They don't want it, and never will want it, as long as perfect conformance to religious ideas matters more to them than being "free". Maybe I'm just not idealistic enough to think that 1000 years+ of culture and belief can be undone by an invading nation of infidels telling them they should adopt a foreign system they don't understand.
They don't want our liberty. They want to be told how to live and forced to live that way under threat of decapitation. Democracy is poisonous to Islam. They don't want it, and never will want it, as long as perfect conformance to religious ideas matters more to them than being "free". Maybe I'm just not idealistic enough to think that 1000 years+ of culture and belief can be undone by an invading nation of infidels telling them they should adopt a foreign system they don't understand.
I certainly hope your being sarcastic. If not you are very much out of touch with the reality of what is taking place there, why it is taking place, and how the current progress is taking place.
Let's get the terminology straight. Liberty is the ownership of ones own life. Your life belongs to you is liberty. Stating they don't want 'our liberty' leads me to believe that you mean they don't want to become Americanized. Either that or your saying they don't want ownership of our lives. Either way I agree. They do however want ownership of their own lives.
You don't have to be idealistic to understand that people want ownership of their own lives. Arabs and Persians, whether Islamic Muslims or not, are as human as you. The Islamic fascists don't define the culture. In fact they are currently being FOUGHT by the very people you claim don't want liberty. The work of General Petraeus over the last year is succeeding BECAUSE they want liberty and the Petraeus approach has been a bottom up, or local to central, assurance that they CAN live how THEY want as long as they DON'T kill their neighbor for living how THEY want. Then keeping that promise. Soon the people themselves saw AlQ as the one telling them under threat how to live not the Americans. And as the promise was kept the Iraqis chased AlQ off with the Americans.
Take hold of the concept of liberty as ownership of ones own life and that Persians and Arabs are human and also desire that. As Americans we take for granted our liberty. We have enjoyed it for so long that we have developed an expectation of justice. We actually EXPECT justice. This is counter the the culture in the middle east where people expect injustice. The desire for liberty is usurped by the desire to survive. The assertion of their desire for liberty has been met with death until now as they didn't have the strong ally we did in France to overcome the overwhelming power that kept that desire down.
The dramatic progress in Iraq wasn't from bombing Iraqis into submission. It has been by a bottom up or local to central change in the expectations of Iraqis. They are seeing a possibility that they may be able to expect justice.
Dollars and oil are of less value then the force of liberty and the change of expectation from expecting injustice to expecting justice in the culture of the middle east. The spread of that will do more damage to the threat of terrorism then bombs. That is the WHOLE Operation Iraqi Freedom premise. To spread this in the middle east. THAT, not money is the POINT.
That Iraq carry it's own water is ALREADY HAPPENING via Petraeus and Crocker. It's the very fact that people didn't care to watch their testimony that the Dems are counting on to take credit for it.
And if Sara cured cancer she would be exonerated for her prior actions. But I'd bet she would use the accomplishment to further advance her gun control agenda.
I wasn't being sarcastic so much as stating how I see things in the most brutal way possible. Sometimes a few strong words seem more apropriate than a large number of carefully qualified words. Such is the case when you are talking about a culture that thinks about life in a very different way than Americans do.
I agree they want to run their own lives in certain ways. In other ways, though, that is certainly not the case. With the exception of Kurdistan, I don't think either of the two of the three nations now (and surely temporarily) know as Iraq have any interest in the things Americans think of when they hear the word "liberty". I think you underestimate how radical "mainstream" Islam is compared to our western sensibilities. I'm glad it works for them, it's an ancient and noble way of life, but the difference between our cultures makes it totally impossible for us to swap ways of life without unfortunate results and the inevitable swap back.
Hell, I don't pretend to understand Iraqi culture, but I'm doing my best to figure it out. I've read the Koran cover-to-cover numerous times and have tried to scratch for information everywhere I thought I could find it, but I'm still woefully ignorant, I suspect.
I don't think you are any better equipped than I am in this weird situation we find our nation in. In fact, Bruxley, your unfounded optimism and idealistic fervor get in the way of your seeing facts. We will never be accepted in Iraq as an occupation force, and our ideas, no matter how right for us they are, will always be tainted in their eyes because they are ours.
I agree they want to run their own lives in certain ways. In other ways, though, that is certainly not the case. With the exception of Kurdistan, I don't think either of the two of the three nations now (and surely temporarily) know as Iraq have any interest in the things Americans think of when they hear the word "liberty". I think you underestimate how radical "mainstream" Islam is compared to our western sensibilities. I'm glad it works for them, it's an ancient and noble way of life, but the difference between our cultures makes it totally impossible for us to swap ways of life without unfortunate results and the inevitable swap back.
Hell, I don't pretend to understand Iraqi culture, but I'm doing my best to figure it out. I've read the Koran cover-to-cover numerous times and have tried to scratch for information everywhere I thought I could find it, but I'm still woefully ignorant, I suspect.
I don't think you are any better equipped than I am in this weird situation we find our nation in. In fact, Bruxley, your unfounded optimism and idealistic fervor get in the way of your seeing facts. We will never be accepted in Iraq as an occupation force, and our ideas, no matter how right for us they are, will always be tainted in their eyes because they are ours.
Petraeus testimony said:
This is from the text of the testimony and associated chart outlining that Iraq is already CURRENTLY spending more then us on thier own security and that we are significantly dropping (by nearly half) what we pay and reducing it even further and Iraq is contributing further.
This is not a new Democrat idea. It was given to them by General Petraeus in his testimony.
Well I don't claim to be an expert in Iraq. I do consume mass quanties of information on the matter however and all of my assertions are based on fact, not over optimism. You will find with more exposure to my posts I am very much a fact person.
Don't take my posts as personal challenges. They are not. The challenge is to your assertions not to you and don't reflect my opnion of you. By default I respect you. That will increase or decrease in time but will still not become how or if I challenge your assertions.
Don't take my posts as personal challenges. They are not. The challenge is to your assertions not to you and don't reflect my opnion of you. By default I respect you. That will increase or decrease in time but will still not become how or if I challenge your assertions.
If Liberty in the mideast means being able to revert to 1100 year old barbarism (sharia law), treat half the population like dogs (women) and continous low-grade civil war, maybe it's not in our country's best interest. Our State Dept certainly felt that way for the past 40 years (minus the last 7).
Here's how much this adventure is costing us and this doesn't even account for lives lost or care for wounded vets:
http://zfacts.com/p/447.html
I don't see any problem with the democrats asking for oil money. That's where Cheney said the money would come from before this whole mess started.
The huge amounts of debt we incur from borrowed foreign capital stand a better chance of destroying our way of life than Saddam ever did.
Here's how much this adventure is costing us and this doesn't even account for lives lost or care for wounded vets:
http://zfacts.com/p/447.html
I don't see any problem with the democrats asking for oil money. That's where Cheney said the money would come from before this whole mess started.
The huge amounts of debt we incur from borrowed foreign capital stand a better chance of destroying our way of life than Saddam ever did.