Democrats fail to back Murtha

IIRC the tour of duty for Vietnam was one year (I was in the Army), recall
reading it was 13 months for the Marines. Regarding Murtha's problems with his fellow Democrats, in the Democratic Pary at present you follow the Party
Line rigidly or you are "purged". A few years ago in New York State (on Long Island, IIRC, a pro-life Democrat won a Congressional seat, at the next primary election he was defeated by a pro abortion candidate, the Republicans won that seat in the General Election. In Pennsylvania, a lot of the liberals are having to hold their noses because their Senatorial Candidate
Bob Casey Jr, is pro life and is the son of prominent pro life advocate the late
Governor Robert Casey Sr.
 
I haven't ever heard Murtha discuss his military record once. All I have heard what what I felt was his honest evaluation of the situation. Does anyone disagree with that evaluation? Are things not going from bad to worse?
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Neither have I, although I don't spend my life glued to CNN. In my opinion, Murtha's called it right every time Iraq's been brought up.

President Bush and VP Cheney are not holding up their service as a license to judge
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It's hard to point to a non-existant service record as something to be proud of, especially if you're trying to convince people that you're the only group of guys that knows how to deal correctly with a military situation...
 
Murtha tauts his service and status as a retired Marine Colonial. However that is only part of the story. Col Jack Murtha was an officer in the Marine Corps Reserves. He served almost all his time in the reserves and not on active duty. USMCR promotions for officers are based upon 2 things 1) willingness to participate, SMCR officers normally have limited opportunity to drill since there are few units in every state. Most of the units are company level organizations, as such only rate a few officers and by TO/E are normally Capts and lower. So they must be willing to go to locations that have higher headquarters to drill as they gain rank. 2) Their non-drill activities, all SMCR officers are required to what amounts to a resume to the promotion boards. Since Col Murtha listed himself as a Congress in his CRC, this would ensure him getting selected for promotions. So his status as a Col means nothing in regards to his actually knowledge of the military. SMCR Colonials normally have what amounts to the equivalents of 5-7 total years of service in their careers scattered over 20-30 years under their belt since they normally only on duty 38 days a year.
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Now for the rest of the story:

he enlisted in the USMC

Murtha was also a drill instructor at Parris Island who was selected to attend OCS and got a commision as an officer.

While in the Reserves volunteered for duty in Vietnam


Most reservists are just as good as thier active duty counterparts. I served in the Reserves from 1975-2004. We participated with Brigades from units of the 101st, 1st Cav Division, 82nd and other units spending every other year from 93 on at either JRTC or NTC supporting these active duty brigrades. When we got deployed in the Afghan Theater we hit the ground running. Eventually the unit was doing not only the initial tasks assigned to it but also took over the duties of the Active Duty Group HQS at that same site as they redeployed. We were performing the same tasks with less people. Our reserve unit was put in for a meritorious unit citation. A lot of folks forget that reservists bring a wealth of knowledge from their civilian jobs that isnt available in the regular military services.

Lets not forget that citizen soldiers have served in every conflict from the Revolutionary War till the present. So basing a comparison on quality on the length of time one has served is flawed. That over 40% of the total amount of troops used in the start of the War on Terrorism were Guardsmenn and Reservists.
 
Eghad

The propaganda is that reserve forces are ever bit as good as the active component. The facts on the ground suggest otherwise, Marine Reserve Units have taken a significantly higher causality rates for similar operations when compare to their active component breathen.

When we look at them we consider the junior enlisted about 85 percent solution, however we consider the officers as no where up to the ability they should be. The simple fact is most left the FMF as Lts and are not MOS qualified to serve in the MOS billet they hold in the reserves or you often fine allowed to get their MOS with a 2 week summer reserve course. How does one become MOS qualified in some cases 1/4 the time and in extreme cases 1/15th the time? The simple answer is they don't. But that doesn't stop them from being awarded the MOS, drilling or in worse cases leading people in combat. You also look at the chronic shortages of officers in the reserves you understand why any warm body, no matter how capable is allowed to drill.
 
How does one become MOS qualified in some cases 1/4 the time and in extreme cases 1/15th the time?
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I was in the logisitcs career fields. I had two petroleum NCOs who had over 60years combined experience in the petrochemical industry. From making oil to construction of processing units and delivery systems. They were light years ahead of thier AC counterparts. We were buying fuel from the local industry. The AC guys couldnt understand why they couldnt get fuel during certain periods from the local refinery. My guys had to explain to them about shutdowns and how they effect production. THe AC guys never had a clue because they had no civilian experience. Once they understood the process no more fuel shortages.

In the civilian world time is money and you get paid to make money for you company. So sometimes in the logisitcs side of the house this boils down to folks with the experience to make things happen.
 
Let's not and say we did....

I'm pretty sure that abortion is a much bigger deal to most voters than gun rights. If Murtha had been more Pro -Choice, the gun thing would be a non-issue. I have a question for the group. Who would you vote for in this mock election?
Candidate "A"= Anti-gun & Anti-abortion
Candidate "B"= Pro-gun & Pro-choice
Let's assume that the "Anti's" are VERY anti & the "Pro's" are VERY Pro.
To get the ball rolling, I'll cast the first vote for Candidate "B"
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This is going to get the thread closed, you know.....

Besides, I hate straw men, which is what you've set up, although if I understand you correctly, what you're getting at is that the Dems eat their own if they're moderates, and I think *that* is true.

Worse than straw men are internet commandos that denigrate the honorable service of a veteran who actually WENT to Vietnam, unlike our current President. Oops....did I type that out loud???? ;)

Springmom
 
Some career fields do have civil counterparts, aviation being the one example that reserve forces are actually better than the active forces. However there aren't many civilian artillery, armor, or infantry counterparts out there. Even MPs tend to be doing more infantry work these days than law enforcement.

A female 0402, logistics officer, were actually talking about this very topic several weeks ago. She as a 1stLt had to work with allot of reserve 0402 Majors and LtCols working for I MEF during OIF 1. She said they often did have really good ideas but civilian world logistics sometimes doesn't work well when dealing the variables of combat. I can attest to that since my battery went many days without food and ran out of ammo when we got to Baghdad.

Time may very well be money, but life (and death) is a much more important commodity.
 
"B" I think we could probably get rid of the "need" for abortion. They'd get them anyway if they were illegal. ;)

Yeah, Murtha's pretty complicated, and neither party likes that.

BTW Carney want's you to have a license to own a gun.
 
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