Democrats fail to back Murtha

Murtha

I'm pretty sure that abortion is a much bigger deal to most voters than gun rights. If Murtha had been more Pro -Choice, the gun thing would be a non-issue. I have a question for the group. Who would you vote for in this mock election?
Candidate "A"= Anti-gun & Anti-abortion
Candidate "B"= Pro-gun & Pro-choice
Let's assume that the "Anti's" are VERY anti & the "Pro's" are VERY Pro.
To get the ball rolling, I'll cast the first vote for Candidate "B"
 
Murtha

Is a fine Veteran that deserves more respect than he is getting. Didn't he mention a long time ago that this war was going nowhere? He's experienced enough to have that insight and remembers who our enemies still are. Too bad his comrades can't see this.
 
Murtha tauts his service and status as a retired Marine Colonial. However that is only part of the story. Col Jack Murtha was an officer in the Marine Corps Reserves. He served almost all his time in the reserves and not on active duty. USMCR promotions for officers are based upon 2 things 1) willingness to participate, SMCR officers normally have limited opportunity to drill since there are few units in every state. Most of the units are company level organizations, as such only rate a few officers and by TO/E are normally Capts and lower. So they must be willing to go to locations that have higher headquarters to drill as they gain rank. 2) Their non-drill activities, all SMCR officers are required to what amounts to a resume to the promotion boards. Since Col Murtha listed himself as a Congress in his CRC, this would ensure him getting selected for promotions. So his status as a Col means nothing in regards to his actually knowledge of the military. SMCR Colonials normally have what amounts to the equivalents of 5-7 total years of service in their careers scattered over 20-30 years under their belt since they normally only on duty 38 days a year.
 
STLRN I am delighted you bought this up. In two local races in my AO the democratic challengers both tout themselves as military officers. This is important in rural PA where military service is still looked upon with respect. One says he is a Lt Commander in the Naval Reserve (He is really a small college Professor). The other claims to be a Lt Colonel retired from the National Guard (High school Principal)

Neither served active duty. Both are in my age group, that means they came of age when the Vietnam Draft was a fact of life. In those days the Reserves and Guard were a way to avoid a trip to SE asia.

Today the Guard and Reserves can expect to serve active duty, and probably in the sandbox. They are every bit as military as the active forces. A far cry from the Vietnam era.

Both candidates profess to be pro gun however. Even going to local R & G clubs to look for votes.

I believe Rep. Murtha has been endorsed by the NRA in the past, he isn't stupid enough to support anti gun measures. Most of his constituency is from Pittsburgh. Unionized Steel Workers. They vote for Dems but like their guns.
 
The Democrats want an anti-gun majority leader? I can't believe it! :rolleyes: Don't worry, though. I hear that Nancy is a long-time hunter who only supports "sensible" gun control laws. She likes to hunt, too. ;)
 
Murtha left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marine Corps and was awarded the American Spirit Honor Medal for displaying outstanding leadership qualities during training. Murtha rose through the ranks to become a drill instructor at Parris Island and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia. Murtha was then was assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

Murtha remained in the Marine Corps Reserves, and ran a small business, Johnstown Minute Car Wash. Murtha attended the University of Pittsburgh on the G.I. Bill, and received a degree in economics. Murtha later took graduate courses from the Indiana University of Pennsylvania. Murtha married his wife Joyce on 10 June 1955 — they have three children and live in Johnstown.

In 1959, Murtha, then a captain, took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for service in the Vietnam War, serving from 1966 to 1967, serving as a battalion staff officer (S-2 Intelligence Section), receiving the Bronze Star with Valor device, two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He retired from the Reserves as a colonel in 1990, receiving the Navy Distinguished Service Medal.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_murtha#Early_life_and_military_service

I think you've double parked your swiftboat, STLRN, you might wanna go move it.

edit to add:
K80Geoff, as a PA resident probably somewhere not too far from you, which two canidates are you referring to?
 
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No actually I am a Marine Officer and dealt quite a bit with my SMCR counterparts. A year in Vietnam as a S2? Do you know what an S2 is? It is an intel staff officer, As a Major in an intel section I would really like to see the SOAs (Summary of Action) for his BSM-V. Intel staff Os work in the COC (combat operations center) doing reports to help the CO decide what he would do, nothing more, especially as a major. It it very interesting that a political player did receive a BSM-V, same with purple hearts, most cases they are deserved but people have got them before for heat stroke, and getting cuts, so I would like to also see the causality card to see why in fact he did receive a PH.

But that aside, 1 year in Vietnam and the little amount of service he has done beside that makes him no expert in what is going on in the current war or military afairs. Hell by the measure of only spending a year making someone an expert I did 3 tours in Iraq does that make me more of an expert?
 
Given the military combat experience of Bush, Cheney, et.al., I have to wonder why it seems so important to you, STLRN, to minimize John Murtha's military record.
He is a senior member of Congress, and as such, receives briefings and has access to information. He is the senior member of the House Appropriations Committee Subcommittee on Defense and is a former Chairman of that subcommittee. His military record is not his only claim to "expertise" with respect to the war in Iraq.
Even if, like many high-profile war supporters, he'd never served a day in uniform, John Murtha would still be right about Iraq.
 
Well at least Rep Murtha served in a combat zone. A rare thing for most of the LTC's I knew in the Army Reserves. I spent time in the reserves after 7 years active. STLRN is absolutely correct about rank in reserve/guard components. I myself was discharged as a Captain because I never completed my required schooling to make Major. A couple of my cronies made rank and never served a day of active, one even made BG (Thats a one star general for you draft dodgers)! They basically went to various schools to get promoted. They get retired pay when they turn 60!

As to the PA Dems, one is Chris Carney, who is running against Incumbent Don Sherwood in the 9th CD. His ads tout him as a 'Naval Reserve Lt Cmdr" as if that is his full time occupation, when in fact he teaches at a local College. Checking on him, he may have actually spent some enlisted time on active duty, but my objection is that he tries to convey himself as military when he is a college prof.

The other guy is running for state senate. His name is Bob McNamara and he is a retired LTC in the PA Natl Guard. He is running in the 20 Senatorial district (PA). He never served on active duty as far as I can determine, just Natl Guard. He also toots the Military service horn in his ads. He is a local high school Principal.

The Dems are using military service as a selling point for their candidates all over the country.

Now any military service is admirable in my book, but some of these candidates border on false advertising.
 
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Well at least Rep Murtha served in a combat zone. A rare thing for most of the LTC's I knew in the Army Reserves.
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It has been my impression that serving in combat is relatively rare among all military vets as a group. Many troops are in support positions and do not see combat. At any given time, the US has troops stationed all over the world, so not all troops will be assigned to the combat zone. Then, of course, we also have to consider that the US isn't always at war, kind of hard to be a combat veteran when there isn't any combat to be had.

I know a fellow who was in the US Navy during the Vietnam conflict. He wasn't a SEAL or a medic attached to a Marine unit or anything like that. He was a seaman on board a ship. The closest he came to service in Vietnam is if he had shore leave there. This doesn't stop him from dressing up in tiger stripe fatigues every Veteran's Day or from describing himself as a Vietnam veteran. That is a dishonest overstatement of a military record.

As for the candidates in question, they are in a difficult spot as Democrats. They constantly take flak from Republicans for being part of the party that is "soft on defense." They try to compensate for that by showing personal military service and get blasted anyway with accusations of overstating or outright lying. I'm not a particular fan of either the Donkey Party or the Elephant Party, but I do think the Donkeys have a lot to learn about using military service as a campaign issue. They're getting denounced as cowards and liars by the Elephant Party which could, just as accurately, be described as The Chickenhawk Party.
 
I did not know this:

"...he volunteered for service in the Vietnam War, serving from 1966 to 1967, serving as a battalion staff officer (S-2 Intelligence Section)..."

Anyone here know how someone volunteers for and receives a ONE-YEAR battalion staff officer position in Vietnam? I have heard of two-year appointments, but never one... Other web sites list Murtha's in-country service this way: "a First Marine Regiment intelligence officer in 1966 and 1967..." Apparently he was in Vietnam less than a year (with no apparent career-ending injury) yet he received two Purple Hearts. Why so short a tour of duty?

Read this though:

"...another source, World War II Navy veteran Harry M. Fox, previously indicated that Murtha in 1968 personally asked Fox's boss, then-U.S. Rep. John Saylor (R-Pa.), for assistance in obtaining the Purple Hearts, but was turned down because Saylor's office determined that Murtha lacked sufficient evidence of wounds. Murtha later challenged Saylor for his House seat in 1968 and lost. Fox said he personally viewed Murtha's military records in 1968 as Saylor's aide..."

From here.

Still curious how he get sent to Nam for only a year?
 
And all of this debate about Murtha's service record is irrelevant, because it doesn't address the fact that the Democrats will insist on electing a majority leader who favors gun control.

The silence concerning the election of an anti-gun Democrat majority leader is deafening.

Then again, maybe it is easier to bypass this matter entirely by talking about service records.
 
I hate to see this degenerate into a "Mine is bigger than yours" debate.

I served during Viet Nam and never got near 'nam or combat. The closest I came is eyballing E German Border guards through a fence.

People serve honorably in many different roles during wars, and they have my respect and gratitude.

The late Col Jeff Cooper was recalled to Viet Nam, because his expertise in small arms was needed, all kinds of folks went there for various reasons. Perhaps Mr Murtha had some expertise to contribute. Respect him for his service, although not his politics.

But when a local Democrat challenger refers to himself as "Navy Reserve Lt Commander Carney" as if he is somehow still associated with the military, rather than the lefty college professor he is, to garner votes I have a problem. If he gets elected and the Dems regain the house, that will put Charlie Rangel in charge of the purse strings as head of the house Appropriations committee. He has publicly stated he will cut off funds for Iraq. What effect do you think that will have on the folks serving now???

And to keep this somewat gun related, what effect will Nancy Pelosi as Speaker have on RKBA?
 
Well Joe, when someone war record is used to give them credence in a subject than that record should be open to review. Having heard said member speak about Iraq and redeploying to Okinawa (some 5000 plus miles away) in order to act as a QRF for the region. I do question his ability to think in a operational and strategic context. Knowing that said member did serve most of his time in the reserve it puts the context of his military service and knowledge in context.
 
Exactly right

President Bush and VP Cheney are not holding up their service as a license to judge

Murtha is

The leftist media acts like his service makes him credible....

So it is fair to ask if his service was credible

Much like John Kerry...his service was irrelevant...until he tried to run for office on it
 
I haven't ever heard Murtha discuss his military record once. All I have heard what what I felt was his honest evaluation of the situation. Does anyone disagree with that evaluation? Are things not going from bad to worse?
 
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