Delicate issue- legal/moral advice

What should I do if he refuses to have the gun examined before the sale?

  • Refuse to by the weapon, and report him to his local LE

    Votes: 3 10.0%

  • Refuse to by the weapon, but make no report to LE

    Votes: 20 66.7%

  • Buy the weapon, but only for a reduced price

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Buy the weapon, and don't ask any more questions

    Votes: 7 23.3%
  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
As to the "partial match"- that is what I believe I heard. I may have misunderstood, since I was on my cell phone having this conversation when it happened. One person I talked to off-line said that the larger PDs won't even run the number unless they have the weapon in hand, so that if it is stolen, it can be confiscated. It may be for that reason- I don't know for sure.

@icedogg88- the seller requested a face to face exchange.
 
Well, if you as the buyer feel sketchy about the sale, and he as the seller doesn't want to meet your criteria for the sale, you should probably look for another gun IMO.
 
@Icedog88- that makes sense. Once he calls back, we'll see. I may decide to be bad and not get it checked out, but I just feel like I would rather know for certain than have to wonder. I don't want to come across as too demanding, but I do want to make sure I am operating in the clear, and I want to make sure I am spending my money wisely.

As for turning down the buy, I have to say, as much as I might want to, dad gum its a nice piece. :) That might just get the best of me.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, and a little healthy debate to get me through a 3rd shift with no sleep.
 
JimmyR, you do realize don't you, that even if a used gun doesn't show up as stolen, it could well be stolen and not reported as such...even if you bought it from a dealer. A subsequent serial # check a few months or years down the road could show you are in possession of a stolen firearm. There are very few guarantees in life.
 
OK here is a perspective from me ( a Texas Police Officer) as to why I have to have the gun in my hand BEFORE I will run a serial number for anyone. Every department I know of has this policy of "don't run the number unless you have the item in front of you, and you are able to seize it if it comes back stolen".

When a serial number is checked, this is what happens. A computer inquiry is routed from that department to the state & to the federal database of stolen items. The federal database is maintained by the FBI. The inquiry is either sent by the officer at a computer or by the dispatcher at a computer at the station. Only specially authorized computers can make this inquiry. The officers NAME and DEPARTMENT are on this inquiry. This activity is ALL recorded by the system.

If the number comes back to a stolen gun, the agency (say somewhere in Arizona) that entered that gun as stolen automatically gets a message (normally an instant computer message) from the national system that officer 'x' at 'xyz' police department (in Texas) just ran that serial number.

Regulations dictate that the two agencies then have "x" number of minutes to make direct contact with each other (either by phone or over the computer teletype). Details of the matter are verified and 'stolen confirmation' is either verified or declined if things don't match up.

If either agency fails to make this contact within 'x' minutes, then automatic flags go off at the state and federal levels and inquires are started by either the state or the feds as to what is going on. When it gets to that point, people can get fired and/or get charges brought on them. These regulations I refer to are the operating rules that all users of the system must agree to before being given access to the system.

The officer that checks the item for stolen is mandated to seize the item once the confirmation has been made that the item is indeed stolen. The only way to absolutely make sure it is possible to seize the item is for the officer to have physical control of it before he starts the inquiry.

The explanation you got of "we need to see it to make sure every other identifier matches up" is a partial truth. The original stolen item report will have other identifiers on it, such as model number, physical description, etc. This helps eliminate the possibilities that numbers got transposed or entered incorrectly. The department to department contact after that first computer 'hit' is the time that this is done.
 
I don’t quite understand what you’re asking about. Are you trying to find out if its stolen? If you think its stolen don’t do the trade.

None of this would occur in Texas. While they might do it, I’ve never ever heard of someone bringing a pistol into a police station to get “checked.” If you told me that was a condition for sale my reply would be impolite at best. You’d never find a seller in Texas like that.

If you want to be perfectly safe why don’t you have the sale done through an FFL that can call in a standard check? (I’ve not done that but assume that’s not a problem). I’m really not getting what you’re trying to do here.
 
What is that supposed to accomplish?

The FFL has no way of checking.
Click to expand...

When they do the sale, the numbers are run through the state police before the transaction can be completed. At least, that's what happens at my LGS.
 
News flash: this is a typical response by an Leo when you do not have the suspect item in hand. The only confirmation is if YOU gave him the number of a stolen gun by accident!

Morally, ethically and legally, you have no direct knowledge this gun is stolen at this point, but I would not deal on it because it is suspect.

I would simple tell the seller you have no interest. Now, if you do have direct evidence or information that the gun is stolen, I'd say you pass what you know onto the police.

In the future, I would only get police involved in a gun deal when you have evidence the other side is breaking the law. Asking police to confirm if a gun is stolen is asking for trouble. What if they have a bad number in their system? I don't trust any of it. The system is about getting guns off the street. It is not designed as a lost and found.
 
You might also consider the fact that in many states, if you purchase an item you know or reasonably suspect to be stolen, you could be looking at a Receiving Stolen Property charge.

Some things are simply not worth the attendant risks. It's up to you to decide.
 
I didn't vote because you didn't have an option that I would have chosen.

Here's the thing - I've bought and sold numerous guns privately. I'll buy a gun either from a private individual or from a LGS and then if I decide I don't like it enough to keep or end up not using it enough to warrant keeping I'll sell it. I won't give an exact number as to how many I've gone through that way in the last few or several years but I can say its been quite a few.

I always ask for a signed bill of sale - by both of us - when either buying or selling privately. I also ask to see a state issued photo ID and copy down the ID number. This way if the gun ends up being contraband (stolen, used in a crime etc.) I know who to send the police after. Aside from that buying a used gun in a private sale is ALWAYS a risk. Legalities aside you never know if there's something that's wrong with the gun - I've had guys hide the fact that their gun was broken in one way or another and try to sell it as a functional weapon. One guy tried to sell me a gun that was missing the extractor and the ejector had broken off inside the gun for near retail pricing since he claimed the gun was NIB and would function fine. As I said its ALWAYS a risk.

I've never asked a seller to accompany me to a police station. I HAVE however been asked if I would submit the gun to a serial number check. At that point I will tell the buyer if that's what he wants then we can meet at my favorite LGS and do the transfer through the FFL. The price of the gun remains the same however I'll pay for the FFL fee and he can pay for the background check. Sometimes they go for that and sometimes they back out of the deal because they don't want to go through the background check. I've also had people say, "I'm going to take this gun to the police to have it registered under my name so would you be willing to take $X?" to which my reply is, "That's fine that you want to register the gun in your name but that doesn't have any effect on me so no the price is not going down."

I did have ONE guy threaten to call the police on me if I wouldn't submit the gun to a serial number check with HIS local police department (he lived in a city 4 hrs away from me) or sell the gun to him at a reduced price to avoid the trouble. I told him to go pleasure himself and go ahead and call the police because I'll be calling them myself to report his attempt at extortion. He hung up quickly and I DID call his local police dept. to report his attempt. I haven't heard anything about it since.

If I were dealing with you I'd tell you to go jump off a cliff (but in more colorful terms) and never contact me again.
 
I also live in Indiana. I have also performed numerous private Firearm sales buying/selling/trading. I also have to assume what you are asking, you are asking simply out of being naiive regarding firearm sales.

What you are asking is ridiculous. The vast majority of property in this country, firearms included, are not stolen and will never be stolen property. If you bought a vintage jacket at a second-hand store, I have to wonder if you would go out of your way to attempt to contact the original seller to find out whether or not the article of clothing in question had ever been stolen. The consequences are essentially the same. But there is no National Stolen Clothing Registry, even considering there are several articles of clothing in this country that cost exorbatantly more money than your standard service firearm. The thought of such a Registry is ridiculous, is it not?

After you opened a Birthday present at your last birthday event, did you make sure to ask the gift-giver if the item was stolen as well, or at least insist on seeing proof of purchase?

There isn't any reason in the world (or at least the State of Indiana) that you should treat this any differently. I create a Bill of Sale, or receipt, with my and the other party's information on it for every transaction. That is it. Assume property is not stolen property. I guarantee you will be right with better than House Odds. And in the case that you're not right, your liability and responsibility for the property will be covered with your bill of sale. And you will be able to aid the police in their property investigation by pointing them in the right direction.

But as far as requesting a lower price, or requesting the man submit his gun to a database test that puts him at additional risk of even a "False Positive", is ridiculous and incredibly one-sided. It is not something that will be received well in this community, and likely something that will be seen as nothing short of an insult by the majority.

If you showed me your nice new shiny car that you had just worked your butt off to pay for, my first response would not be to ask you if you had considered that you may be in possession of stolen property unknowingly.

I also realize it might upset you to read some of these responses, but I assure you that the dissonance you are feeling is simply a lack of understanding. This is not something that is commonly done, and for a reason. It is not needed, and largely is a power that can be used to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens with regulations like "False Positive/Partial Match SOP". And possession of our guns is something this community takes very seriously and very close to heart.

~LT
 
"When they do the sale, the numbers are run through the state police before the transaction can be completed."

Maybe in the Peoples Democratic Republic of CT, but not in most other places.

The gun is entered in the bound book, then a 4473 t trasnfer it back out to the new owner.

No checking.
 
Maybe in the Peoples Democratic Republic of CT, but not in most other places.

The gun is entered in the bound book, then a 4473 t trasnfer it back out to the new owner.

No checking.
Click to expand...

This has happened in both of the sales run through the FFL I have done with individuals. Not in new sales from the store to me. Both times the serial # of the gun was read to the State police in what I thought to be a check of the gun.
 
Let me understand this...right now, your only reason for suspicsion is the low price, and a single police officer's response that it could be a "partial match" to the serial number of a listed stolen gun? Is that right?

I would have my doubts about the "partial match" information. If there is a stolen gun with the numbers "34" in the serial number, and your gun also has the numbers "34" in the number, that's a "partial match"? "34" in the middle of the number of one gun, and "34" at the end of the number of another gun could be a "partial match" to a police officer, particularly one who is not expert in the details of this kind of thing.

Personally, I think you are borrowing trouble. Get a signed bill of sale, include the ID of the seller, and your butt is covered if the gun comes up stolen. You will likely be out your money, but that's a risk you take.

Since you have doubts about it, probably the best thing for you to do is pass on the sale.
 
Why does everyone trying to do a FTF sale think the other person is trying to pawn off stolen goods?

OP if you are that paranoid about it, don't bother and only buy new guns from your local gun store - problem solved
 
I'm wary of this 'partial match' justification as well. If I were the Police officer that responded to the OP's phone call, and he asked me to determine whether a gun was stolen - I would probably ask him to bring it in as well. Because I'd have reason to suspect that he believes it may be a stolen firearm. I'm sure that people call the Police all the time w/ bogus stories, trying to determine if they're aware of a crime that has been committed, or whether a given action is, or was, illegal. So of course they'll ask you to come in. The inquiry itself is going to raise suspicion.
 
@44 Amp: I had no suspicions until the police officer said there might be an issue. I was doing what I assumed was my due dilligence before buying a firearm from an individual.

To all, it ends up being a moot point, since the seller decided to sell it to someone closer to his area. He would have had to drive an hour away to meet me half way, and he found someone else closer to home. Thanks for the suggestions, and I think I am going to stick to buying used guns from a gun shop rather than individuals.
 
If you're local police are like mine, they won't give you an answer either way without the gun in hand. They take it to the back room and run the numbers. If it's stolen they keep it, if not you get it back, but you won't get any anwers unless they have possession of it. Go to your local FFL and see if they will run the serial number for you. Some will do it for a small fee. If you don't want to try that, here's a website that may help you, but it will only show guns that have been reported to this site. Otherwise, you'll just have to go by what your gut tells you. If it feels like a bad deal and you think it will worry you from now on, you're better off just passing on this one & moving along to the next deal.

http://www.hotgunz.com/search.php
 
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