Defund the Police?

[FITASC]

As for the racist rubbish about blacks being more prone to crime, on a state by state basis African Americans are two to three times more likely to be living below the federal poverty line than whites so I'm gonna challenge that racist crap with the hypothesis that POOR PEOPLE in URBAN SETTINGS commit more crimes than wealthy people in the suburbs.

Poor folks in the sticks commit more crimes than wealthy folks as well; think meth heads.

As to the comment about blacks being 2-3 times more likely to be living below the poverty line, just why is that? it isn't like they haven't been given more opportunities since LBJ's great Society, Affirmative Action, etc. Crime is crime; protesting the death of someone peacefully is a lot different than just looting, stealing, and committing terrorist acts against society.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

I've thought that the main reason for the current antipathy towards police by non-crazies is based on two factors.

1. The police have become militarized through the purchase of military surplus equipment and have developed a "warrior" ethos of us vs them.

2. The Police Unions and their protections have created a "blue wall of silence" and allowed bad cops to operate with impunity. This is shown by the fact that I believe 3 other officers watched the Minneapolis cop murder George Floyd and did nothing to stop him.

So, if defunding the Police means not spending money on MRAPs and military equipment and neutering the Police Unions (FWIW I oppose ALL public sector unions) thne I am in favor of it. Spending money on other resources like training seems to make more sense than kevlar helmets.

 

[CowTowner]

This is shown by the fact that I believe 3 other officers watched the Minneapolis cop murder George Floyd and did nothing to stop him.

This is no longer a fact. The autopsy showed none of the signs that the officer committed murder. In fact, death has been ruled to be caused by heart failure along with a high dose of fentanyl and other drugs in his system. The weakened heart can be partly due to Mr. Floyd having had COVID-19.

 

[FITASC]

So, if defunding the Police means not spending money on MRAPs and military equipment

Who would you then have go against the well-armed international drug cartels who, in today's world, have no problem with killing cops? Do we keep a separate military/National Guard/State Police unit for that action?

 

[Metal god]

Cowtowner , just so I understand you correctly. You are saying Mr Floyd was going to die that day regardless if he interacted with the police or not ? It was just an unfortunate coincidence the cops were there when he died ?

 

[44 AMP]

the current antipathy towards police by non-crazies is based on two factors..

The two factors you name are big ones, but I don't think they are the only ones. How about adding in 30 years of "COPS" type tv shows teaching us that talking to the police, and any hesitance to do exactly what the officer says, the instant he says it gets you body slammed over the hood of a car and handcuffed....

No, this isn't the "typical" interaction with the police (or shouldn't be) but we've been TAUGHT by the tv for decades that it is.

3 cops watched another commit murder? I don't think so. 3 cops watched another "restraining" a guy. Sadly that lead to his death, but I seriously doubt that any of those 3 cops thought they were watching a murder and did nothing.

Who would you then have go against the well-armed international drug cartels who, in today's world, have no problem with killing cops?

Certainly a valid point, but it appears not quite as valid a reason to outfit, train, and conduct police operations as military assaults, based on real world results.

Apparently, while rogue individuals do kill cops, the "international cartels" and gangs rarely ever do so, in the United States. Seems the overwhelming majority of shootouts when cops raid drug dealers happen on TV.

We see, time after time, after time a drug raid where lots of weapons are seized, where the "gang/cartell" could have fought back seriously, but didn't.

Those big arms caches aren't used against the police, they're there to intimidate (and be used if needed) OTHER CRIMINALS. The drug dealers rarely shoot at the cops, because they know that if they don't shoot at the cops, odds are high they are going to be out of jail in a matter of a few days, if not a few hours. IF they DO shoot at the cops, they're going to be in lockup a LOT longer.

Not saying the really bad stuff doesn't happen, it does. But I have to wonder, when someone says the cops need X+ because the crooks have X, I wonder how many cops were lost to X in the hands of the crooks??

Don't know if its still true or not, but for generations, the most statistically deadly weapon to the cops was their own sidearm.

Back to defunding the police.... I think there are several basic flaws in the idea, one of the big ones is the ASSUMPTION that with less money to spend, there will be fewer "bad cops" on the streets.

It assumes that the people who do the police budgets now, will somehow become enlightened about what funds they put where, if they have less funds to work with.

Doesn't work that way folks.

And, a word about police unions...
Defunding the cops will have no effect on the power of the unions, as long as there are cops to pay union dues.

 

[FITASC]

Defunding the cops will have no effect on the power of the unions, as long as there are cops to pay union dues.

Unless more of them leave for nicer places with no unions. In certain places, NYC for example, you MUST join a union to get a job.

 

[HiBC]

Cowtowner , just so I understand you correctly. You are saying Mr Floyd was going to die that day regardless if he interacted with the police or not ? It was just an unfortunate coincidence the cops were there when he died ?

Metalgod. Your question is irrational hyperbole. Are you saying "Don't confuse me with the facts,my mind is made up? "

Mr Floyd placed himself close to death via Fentanyl. You don't know if he would have died without the cops,and neither do I.

Mr Floyd is alleged to have tried to pass a counterfeit $20 bill.Who owns that?

Had Mr Floyd not tried to pass funny money,the cops would have rather been eating donuts,right? Its usually "Doing stupid stuff" that leads to police contact.
I'm not dismissing the video. Its typical of tragedy that Party "A" ,who is screwing up,meets party "B" who is screwing up. Their combined energy gets someone killed.Mr Floyd's death,IMO,is not excused. As second degree murder may be an overcharge,(prosecutor error) acquittal is ,IMO,likely.

Had Mr Floyd purchased alcohol with the counterfeit $20, add that to the Fentanyl and Mr Floyd may have had a cop-free death.

Your bias is costing you credibility points

 

[Mainah]

We are world leaders in terms of incarcerations: https://www.statista.com/statistics...h-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/

We are outsourcing corrections to the private sector, so this is now a profit center. If the folks who want to defund the police could do a better job of articulating this problem I think we might be able to have a real conversation.

I saw a local officer pull his cruiser over the other day and jump out to play football with some kids on the street. I think this is a policy issue that got perverted into a debate about police.

Who would you then have go against the well-armed international drug cartels who, in today's world, have no problem with killing cops? Do we keep a separate military/National Guard/State Police unit for that action?

The cartels wouldn't have the funds to create their own armies if the demand here for their drugs wasn't so gigantic. Ignoring that part of the issue while engaging in an arms race with them won't end well.

 

[Metal god]

I’m a recovering drug addict , I’m in a unique situation to understand and believe that no he would not have died without the cops kneeling on his neck & torso for eight minutes . You don’t walk around , go to the store and drive around in your car if you’re about to die from substance abuse . Trust me I’ve been close you’re not moving around or doing crap . You’re just sitting there hoping you don’t die . He may have had drugs in his system but I promise you he was not about to die because of it at that very moment of the day . If he never encountered the cops and went home and did more maybe he dies that day but I promise you this , during the trial it will be shown that there wasn’t enough in his system alone to kill him .

Furthermore isn’t there competing autopsies ? One by the city/state examiner , and the other by a world renowned pathologist considered to be literally the best in his field .

To be fair I’m not saying the drugs weren’t a contributing factor but to ignore the cops roll of leaning on his neck and compressing his torso making it very hard for him to breathe and get oxygen to the brain was not a significant contributing factor as well Is unreasonable .

I strongly believe the cops are overcharged and will be found not guilty . I personally thought negligent homicide was a slam dunk but second-degree murder ain’t gonna happen . If we’re not in a Civil War type situation by January or February due to the lack of confidence in the election we absolutely will be when the verdict comes down not guilty for those officers . Either way we all better prepare .

 

[heyjoe]

Unless more of them leave for nicer places with no unions. In certain places, NYC for example, you MUST join a union to get a job.

It is absolutely incorrect that you have to belong to the police union to be a police officer in New York City. You dont know what you are talking about.

 

[SHR970]

Metal God said:To be fair I’m not saying the drugs weren’t a contributing factor but to ignore the cops roll of leaning on his neck and compressing his torso making it very hard for him to breathe and get oxygen to the brain was not a significant contributing factor as well Is unreasonable .

Body Cam footage from more than one PoV shows Floyd complaining about being unable to breath BEFORE they even tried to put him into the back of the squad car. Floyd was even asked what he was on by that point in time. The PoV by some that he may have had comorbid conditions, Covid, been on the edge of O.D., AND having a panic attack for knowing he was going back to prison have zero to do with the videos from several PoV's that he was not being leaned on by the police officer to the point where he was being suffocated. His 'I can't breath complaint' was in evidence for several minutes BEFORE he was restrained on the ground; BEFORE he was put in the back of the police car.

Just like "hands Up Don't Shoot"....this story is built on a lie. There are 4 police body cams and several witness videos to back that up.

Edited to corrct the timing of the "I can't breath" complaint as evidenced by police body cameras.

 

[Metal god]

A panic attack is your brain playing games on you and you hyperventilating which means getting too much oxygen , he was not gonna die Maybe pass out but not die .

It’s all the same basic arguments when that big fat dude got put in a chokehold and died . It turned out he had a bad heart and had a heart attack . He was not gonna have that heart attack without the police roughing him up and putting him in that headlock .

I’m not a doctor and I did not examine him but I stand by my opinion that he would not of died if the cops didn’t kneel on his torso and neck for eight minutes regardless of any other condition he was in . This is why I made the other point of being overcharged. I don’t think the police murdered him but I believe they were negligent in their duties which resulted in the death of a man they were responsible for . Once you put the handcuffs on somebody they can no longer adequately defend themselves or control their immediate destiny. It is up to the law enforcement officers on scene to secure and keep safe the person they have in custody .

I have nothing more to say about this at least in this thread because it’s not what the thread is about and I’d rather it not get closed .

 

[HiBC]

The relevance to the original topic (defunding) is that many who advocate defunding resent cops for any number of reasons.
It could be a lack of a Father figure in the house left them with authority issues.

It might be the micro culture they live in just does not like cops.

Generally those sympathetic to criminal activity do not like cops.

Metalgod,you cite being a recovering drug user as "been there,done that" source of credibility.

I'll just say I graduated high school in 1970, and I jumped in and lived my times. I have a certain amount of "been there,done that" myself. Got the Tee Shirt.

Sometime back in the 20th Century, I came to the "Adulting" fork in the road.

I had a good job,a mortgage,a family,etc. My employer made a drug policy testing announcement.
I also read,and took seriously,the language of form 4473,"I am not an unlawful user of...." and something about felonies and prohibited persons.
I did fancy myself a defender of the 2nd Ammendment. I strongly believe making life choices that keep me from becoming a "prohibited person" is a cornerstone place to start.

Along with that,drugs are expensive,and so are kids. Hmmm. I have $30 and the kid needs shoes. Choices.

Every day,we make choices. I made the right choices. With good reasons for motivation.

I've also studied alcoholism and addiction some.
There is a problem with honesty that is a core characteristic of alcoholics and addicts. It includes being honest with the self.

From that,springs forth an unlimited capacity to blame others for a situation the addict or the addiction caused. Get a copy of theAA Blue book. Read the chapter on "Stinkin Thinkin"

Among the people who are most often blamed are cops.

Drunk drivers blame,or hate cops because they get a DUI bust. I'm sure a lot of drunk drivers are all in favor of defunding cops.

The recent case of the guy fighting ,running,taking the taser and getting shot would never have happened if the poor victim was not passed out at the wheel in line at he burger joint. He was drunk enough to kill people with his car. But its those mean cops that killed him.
I had to walk away from a best friend due to alcohol/addiction. 95% a good guy. Decades,he was my hunting/fishing buddy.

But too many times things went wrong because he crawled into the bottom of a bottle. What tore it,I heard in his 50's he took up meth. I could not have that in my life.

Yes,it was painful. I could have reconnected. I would have,if he could have ever just owned "I "f'd" up" And that never happened. It was always "That was a bad deal" or his Ex,or whatever. He died without ever owning his own life.

And MetalGod,I've heard it all.

I'll also tell you that among the drug culture,there is universal anti cop sentiment.

It never occurs to the drug users that they are the ones on the wrong side of the law. Like drunk drivers,(who generally feel "I'm OK,I don't have far to go")

Drug users are not too good at knowing if they are OK. Thats why ,in 2019,just one year,nearly 68,000 of them died believing it would be OK.
These folks generally were not trying to commit suicide. But they "knew" They were experienced.Been there,done that! Yeah.
https://drugabusestatistics.org/drug-overdose-deaths/

One year. Ten years of VietNam did not kill that many.(US troops in combat. Yes,I am aware the post-war toll is much higher,and Vietnamese lives matter)
Oh,you might take a moment to thank the cops who prevented OD deaths by giving Narcan? or whatever the opioid antidote is. Can we credit the cops with lives saved?
Jeez,sounds like the gun arguement! The news and some politicians never credit the armed citizen with saving lives,
Defund cops makes as much sense as "confiscate all guns"

George Floyd died. IMO,(I get to have one) He 90% set himself up to die. The cops may have made up the other 10%.

If I was Judge Judy,....

There is nothing about the Floyd case that calls for defunding. Nothing!!

It calls for training,standards,and sometimes,culling cops from the force before they do harm.

I'll let the court decide the rest

Anne Wilson Schaeff writes from a militant feminist point of view. I managed to get past that to read her book "Society as an Addict" (or something close to that)The book had merit.

A large percentage of our population are either addicts or codependents

They share common behavioral characteristics. As a political block of voters,they are easily manipulated..Especially by those who study addictive behavior.

No disrespect intended,but Karl Marx coined the term "Useful Idiots"

If chaos in the streets and rebellion is the goal, tweakers,drunks,potheads,etc are great rabble to rouse.

 

[Metal god]

HiBC , Excellent points well said I agree almost 100% .

 

[Doyle]

So, if defunding the Police means not spending money on MRAPs and military equipment

Who would you then have go against the well-armed international drug cartels who, in today's world, have no problem with killing cops?

I can somewhat see that need in certain places. However, generous federal grants have allowed small BFE towns in the middle of nowhere to purchase MRAPs. Towards what REAL purpose or need?

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Kneeling on someone's neck who is already handcuffed is by any means of decency excessive and wrong. Those cops who watched that and did nothing to intervene and are complicit in murder. Probably second degree (or manslaughter) and I believe based on the evidence that they will be convicted. But the larger matter is that bad cops are tolerated in the culture and that will have to stop. The unions exacerbate this and laws may curtail their activities.

Soldiers make poor cops. A military mindset and warrior ethos has no place in the police forces of this country. Look for pushes to change that soon.

The handwriting is on the wall folks. The winds they are a changing for police.

 

[zxcvbob]

Kneeling on someone's neck who is already handcuffed is by any means of decency excessive and wrong. Those cops who watched that and did nothing to intervene and are complicit in murder. Probably second degree (or manslaughter) and I believe based on the evidence that they will be convicted. But the larger matter is that bad cops are tolerated in the culture and that will have to stop. The unions exacerbate this and laws may curtail their activities.

Soldiers make poor cops. A military mindset and warrior ethos has no place in the police forces of this country. Look for pushes to change that soon.

The handwriting is on the wall folks. The winds they are a changing for police.

We were discussing this on another board. I agree that it was some degree of murder, however that doesn't matter. The cop was following procedure. (keep the detainee restrained until EMS arrives.) So qualified immunity applies; the case will get thrown out.

"Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg, and it doesn't work for our military, but the Supreme Court has set the bar much lower for our police. Maybe this will be the last straw the breaks qualified immunity.

The riots we've seen so-far are nothing like what happens when all 4 or these cops are released and reinstated; probably with back pay.

 

[DaleA]

I'll play.

So qualified immunity applies; the case will get thrown out.

Well that's not going to happen. (My opinion, free and worth the price.)

One radio announcer commented on whether or not the police could get a fair and impartial jury. "That depends on whether or not the latest NASA probe finds life on Mars."

Personally I'm kind of surprised the police don't go limp and give in on a couple of the proposals. Like sending in "counselors" instead of police to domestic disturbances and disturbances where mental illness is suspected. I'm thinking the police should give a hearty "Have at it! You go counselors!!!" to the Hug Patrol that would take over these calls.

 

[44 AMP]

There's two sides to every coin, and there's an edge. And some things aren't like coins but more like the 20 sided Dungeons & Dragons dice.

We hear, "we gotta bust the unions, they're too powerful, and they protect bad cops...."

Got news for those of you who've never worked in a union shop, they don't just protect the bad guys, they protect the GOOD ones, too.

What is the "power" of the union?? Its nothing magical or special, and it doesn't "protect" people who have actually done bad things. It is the power of collective bargaining to be able to ensure that the employer abides by, and lives up to the contract they have signed. Down to every "i" being dotted and every "t" being crossed, if that's what it takes to protect the innocent. This does NOT protect the guilty, IF the employer does their job correctly. ]

It's common for the employer to do a crappy job of making their case, and then blaming the union for their lack of success. Just as it is in court where a case gets tossed out "on a technicality", and people blame the judge or the defense attorney because the "obviously gulty" goes free...

Unions can and some have been/are corrupt. SO are the cops, and our government, and other organizations been found to be at some times and places. That's a sad reality, but it doesn't invalidate the principles we operate under.

And that's one of the big problems with "Defund the Police" (particularly with its lack of specifics and complete lack of alternative ideas).

The system has cracks, despite good intentions sometimes bad things happen. but I don't think the "tear it all down" is the answer, especially when the "tear it all down" is not accompanied with any kind of "lets build this, in its place"

Defund the police is the 21st century equivalent of the mob shouting "Burn the Witch!!!" and with about the same amount of reasoning put into it...maybe less....