defensive shot gun choice?

esldude

Hey - you didn't offend me, as far as I am concerned we are okay. :)

TFL exists as does THR and others to educate folks. We have to remember to we have visitors here that are new to firearms and learning. We also have to remember there are folks from all over the world with varying firearm laws and restrictions. Add those folks that have physical handicaps.

My thoughts and real life experience teaching folks to shoot, from kids , armed guards to LEOs.

-4 rules of firearm safety.
-Have a gun, prefereble one that fits.*
-200 rds of duty ammo fired to assure reliability of THAT ammo in THAT gun.
-Know the MOA and includes failure drills.
-Know what THAT guns needs to keep running , meaning inspection and maintenence schedule, proper cleaning ( chambers and extraction are the #1 reason for failures) and lubrication.

Yep I have said and will again, one of the best kept secrets is a 20 ga 1100.

Yep I have taught folks for various reasons to shoot a two bbl gun ( SxS ,O/U).

Yep the single shot shotguns - I have given many to folks for HD. Might be a broke single mom , a geriatric with limited strength, arthritis, loss of a hand, ... 20 ga , 28ga, .410 will be better than harsh words .

There is no Holy Grail for everyone and everything. Maybe in some country semis are not allowed, heck maybe even a pump since they are "repeaters" are not allowed. So use a 311 SxS and defend yourself for instance. You lost a arm in a Conflict years ago, arthristis is so bad ( rheumatoid) , use the single shot I gave you, the way he and I worked it out for him to defend himself.

* fit is not only gun fit, includes the needs and capabilities of user.

Just my personal thoughts, but I'm the guy that loads slugs only for serious situations - what do I know? ;)
 
About birdshot...

Sure, at point blank range the birdshot will work. But get even 10 yards away and it likely won't penetrate far enough to be reliable. The spread isn't a problem. Most shot will land inside 30 inches at 40 yards.

Have seen a large dog shot at 3 feet. Not even a whimper with birdshot. Posted on another thread recently a man shot from 30 feet with birdshot. Looks like some kid shot him with a pellet gun a couple dozen times. Not enough to stop anyone if they don't want to stop. Simply not enough penetration.

#6 shot is .11 caliber with a weight of 2 grains. A .177 airgun pellet will weigh 5-11 gr. And doesn't penetrate deeply enough. #6 shot won't penetrate enough once it spreads out even a little. How far away is this? I don't know. Probably not even 10 yards. Will it work at 7 yards, 5 yards? I don't know maybe someone else here does.

As to the 20 gauge, I think it plenty for most instances. All with much more tolerable recoil for a larger cross section of the people who may need it.
 
How far do you have to penetrate to hit the femoral artery? I have a 13 foot shot with a .005" restriction. According to the base line data, at he top of the shotgun forum, I should have a 7" pattern, of a 2 oz load turkey load of of #4. I can go down to 1 3/4 oz and get 1300 fps I am sure either of these loads have the potential of hitting the femoral artery. How close are your neighbors, mine are very close. I am talking #4's, heavy shot is soposed to be a good way to add extra energy to birdshot. So imagine 200 #4's that penetrate like 2' coming at your groin, doesn't paint a pretty picture.
 
Like Dan, as in another thread

My first couple rounds are #4 birdshot...Pretty sure to ruin the BGs day at normal HD ranges, and I have 00 buck to follow, should the birdshot be inadequate (highly unlikely). Also as I mentioned elswhere, the sadistic side of me pictures the BG in the emergency ward, having a few hundred pieces of lead removed---one at a time.
 
#4 shot is .13 caliber weighing 3.24 gr. Still less than a airgun pellet.

How much penetration for the femoral artery? At one location near the top of the leg, not much. But this is a small target. After that it lies a few inches inside the body. Too many inches for small birdshot to reach if fired from anywhere but very close range.

Backing birdshot with buckshot is one strategy. Hope you get at least three shots if you need them.
 
it depends on your needs and you're willing to spend.

it's my opinion that strictly for home defense, a semi-auto shotgun is a better choice. semi-automatics are easier to control and if you keep them clean and lubed, and feed them the right ammo, are probably more reliable than pump guns. you don't have to pump them and you will feel less recoil, meaning that in a serious situation you'll be much more effective at putting lead on target with an auto than a pump. if i didn't have to be so cost-conscious, my first choice for a home defense gun would be a remington 1100 or 11-87 in 20 gauge.

if funds are tight or you only want one shotgun, i'd recommend getting a pump shotgun in 12 gauge. they are more solid... they've got a different kind of reliability than a semi-auto. you can shoot more types of loads through them and they won't need as much maintanence. if i had to pick one gun to defend my home, it'd be a semi-auto shotgun. if i had to pick a shotgun with which to go into combat or a SHTF scenario, it'd be a pump action.

IMO, the reasons for selecting 20 gauge or 12 gauge are similar in ways to auto v. pump. 20 gauge is quite controllable, and plenty to stop a home intruder as long as you've got a supply of it. if i could only have one shotgun for all scenarios however, i'd make it a twelve gauge. ammo is more readily available and in greater variety of loads.

as far as shot size: 1 buck in 12 gauge, 3 buck in 20 gauge. others are right in saying that at most in-house ranges, it's not going to matter much what you're firing; the pellets will mostly strike en-masse, but that's just as true of human tissue as of building materials. don't count on bird shot not to penetrate walls, etc. at close ranges, and don't count on it to critically penetrate human tissue at more distant ones.

get the shortest legal barrel you can find (will probably be 18.5 inches, 18's the legal minimum). cylinder or improved cylinder choke. 7 round magazine is probably a better choice than 5, but i don't think it matters too much.
 
I like the Mossberg 500. You can find my reasons here. http://members.tripod.com/~jth8260/870.html

RiotGun.jpg
 
XB thanks for the info, I thought that the 870 had only one extractor. I am interested in the fiber optic sight.


Elsdude I have to worry about my neighbors. They have recently noticed my vehicle missing and wondered, about my health. I can not walk my dog(Pitbull/Greatdane mix), and they have said that their son would enjoy doing it for us. I can't in good conscience load a round that could hit there house even before this. I try to use lead buckshot that deforms, I am very fast with my shot gun, and accuarte. I can hit 17 yard trap that is falling on it's way down, at max distance. If i have to I will beat an intruder with my empty gun, It is a tool, I have a strap on it to catch an attackers, outstretched hand with a knife. I have a BMF handy also. If somebody comes into my home I suspect they are going to regret it more than me. I do know that bird shot up close can cause nasty wounds, and put a person unconscious.
 
Last edited:
I'm suprised no one has mentioned the Benelli Nova yet. I have the 18.5 bbl version with ghost ring sights, and have found it to be an effective, reliable, and comfortable gun to use.

It's simple, dependable, takes down easily, is made with a rugged polymer/steel composite construction, is sturdy enough to bash BGs with and yet light enough to be handy in tight spaces.

An added plus (for a pump gun) is that its short-shuck tolerence. The shell isn't released from the magazine until the slide has been brought all the way back to its rearmost position, there is essentialy no possiblility of a jam occuring. Granted, an empty chamber in a firefight isn't a good thing, but it's a lot better than a jammed up and inoperable weapon.
 
I don't think anyone has bothered to mention this, so here goes-
The gun should be your very last line of home defense. The first things to worry about should be making your home unattractive to criminals, from the outside in. Also, I hope you realize that "clearing" a structure is one of the most dangerous and foolish things you could possibly do, especially alone. I would only consider it if there are other family members that need to be retrieved and brought back to the "safe room". Won't take the thread too far off topic, as these ideas deserve their own; I just thought someone should mention it.

I will not go too far into the reliability of the auto vs. pump debate as I think those points have been made. My choice is the auto, but I've seen both autos and pumps malfunction. It is up to you to make sure whatever gun you buy is reliable with the ammo you use.

Having said that, there is more to the auto/pump debate than reliabilty.
One of my favorite kinds of hunting is eliminating vermin from around our farm buildings. This takes place at night, usually inside buildings or very close quarters otherwise. Shots are close, fast, and there may be more than one moving target, and they can take a lot of punishment to stop. I can't help but believe some of the lessons I've learned under these circumstances would also apply to home defense.

I started out with a double barrel, but often found I needed more than 2 shots. When things are close and exciting, misses are certainly possible, especially with multiple moving targets. Even if you're good at reloading a double, there's no way it will be as fast as simply pulling the trigger again, and things happen so fast even this is barely possible sometimes.

So I switched to various pump actions. Ever try to work a pump gun one handed, or while holding something? I found time and again my other hand was needed to hold a flashlight, open doors, etc. In your case, you may also be holding a cell phone, child, be wounded, or......? In the real world, you just don't know. With the auto, even if I'm holding something in my hand, I can rest the forearm over my arm or wrist or whatever, and still fire effectively. I have had to use it one handed a couple times. Not the best policy of course, but it would be impossible with a pump.

I think I already mentioned these things can happen fast. I can say with pretty much confidence, an auto will get you back on target for faster follow up shots than any pump. (i.e., if you had practiced equally with both of them using comparable ammo)

I don't care for thumb safeties on the back hump of the reciever. Sure, they're easy to get at; in fact too easy for me. Their exposed location means they can be accidentally brushed off (or on!) easily without you realizing it. It's happened to me a few too many times. Also, the cheap plastic safeties like this that Mossberg uses can be smashed into the reciever, again because of their exposed location. This renders the gun completely inoperable. (seen it twice)

Also, regarding recoil of the 12 guage vs. 20 gauge:
Don't assume the 20 gauge will be better. Since 20 ga guns are often built lighter, the felt recoil often ends up about the same as a heavier 12. This is especially true if the entire gun is built smaller, and doesn't fit properly. For example, my little sister's 20 ga Browning pump kicks the hell out of me. The stock doesn't fit me right, and it bashes the side of my cheek, turning the whole side of my face numb. Very unpleasant. By comparison my Rem 1100 12 ga is a joy to shoot. I would say that if recoil is a problem, I would first look at getting a gas operated gun, that also fit you properly, rather than assuming a jump down in power is the first answer.
 
get an 870 Marine Magnum and have it Vang Comped

My personal weapon is an 870 Marine Magnum that was Vang Comped by Hans Vang. Beautiful combat weapon... No rust.
 
the slid rods

Question. The slide action slide asembly on the mossberg {part 29 specifically}http://63.149.92.163/manuals/52458_500_835_590.pdf

seems rather flimsly. It seems that the rods would be easily bent in any heavy action. Any comments?
i saw one in the store and noticed how easily the would bend compared to say the winchester 1300 or remington.

Also, what do you think about the aluminum reciver on the mossberg verses steel on others?
 
My vote goes to the rem marine mag
I just dont know if I could get past not having the sound of it being racked. Kinda says leave me the hell alone better than any other sound, IMHO. My personal pref for defense would be an alternating 00 buck, low recoil slug load. Also, with regard to the birdshot arguement. I would say under no circumstances would I load it with birdshot. Think of the legal aspects of this. You are opening yourself up to lots of legal crap because you might have put the poor BG's eye out, or caused him undue pain and suffering. However dead BG's tell no stories. Im not advocating going around killing people, but My test for a shoot/no shoot scenerio is......if I dont shoot, am I liable to be killed or seriously injured. Using birdshot, I can see a lawyer getting the notion that I was being cruel and shooting out of anger, instead of being afraid for my life when I discharged my weapon for defense.
 
I think the Saiga 12's are underrated for this purpose.

The reliability of an AK. Short barrel with chokes. Detacheable magazine and very low cost. Around $350 or less locally.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top