Defensive practice

Well if it wasn't a proper statement, half a dozen posters,
JUST LIKE YOU, would have gone out of their way to prove
me wrong already, wouldn't they?
Not trying to prove you wrong, but what happens if youre not right? Are you equally prepared for things beyond those limited parameters?

Hopefully, you practice a broad spectrum of things, from point blank to 50+ yards, and do so as realistically as possible. Reality (who happens to be directly related to Mr Murphy by the way) tends to bite people in the ass when they actually encounter it, and from what Ive seen at various ranges over the years, I think its safe to say, "most" are not even remotely prepared to deal with things, unless of course, they look like a bullseye target standing still at a fairly close range.

I always thought this "rule of three" thing was thought up by those who only carry a 5 shot J frame or one of the little .380's with no reload, to justify and feel good about their choice. :)
 
danoobie said:
Well if it wasn't a proper statement, half a dozen posters,
JUST LIKE YOU, would have gone out of their way to prove
me wrong already, wouldn't they?

Unfortunately for you, I, like K-Mac, prefer facts.

How's this work for you?

https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/what-do-fbi-statistics-really-say-about-gunfights/

WHAT DO FBI STATISTICS REALLY SAY ABOUT “GUNFIGHTS”?
By Claude Werner

Not as much as many people would lead us to believe. We frequently hear claims like: “Check out the stats, man, it’s always at 20 feet or less, and nearly always at 10 feet or less.” Or “that zero to three feet distance that most gunfights take place at in the real world.” Various figures are cited as the source for these contentions, most commonly “the FBI.”

Well, neither of those statements can be proven true based on the information supplied by “the FBI.” The available facts are actually a lot less conclusive than many people portray them as. Consequently, there is a great deal of unsupportable extrapolation of the facts that do exist.

The purpose of this article is not to say that gunfights and shootings don’t take place at close range but rather that stating “the FBI” says they do is incorrect.
 
Well if it wasn't a proper statement, half a dozen posters,
JUST LIKE YOU, would have gone out of their way to prove
me wrong already, wouldn't they?
Not worth it.

It just doesn't make sense. Think about it. Three shots in three seconds at three feet? Shooting that slowly at someone who is virtually standing still at a distance close enough to slash your neck?

Come now!

In the standard Tueller drill, an assailant moves at an average speed of twenty one feet in a second and a half. Try it, or observe others.

Starting the draw at twenty one feet, a skilled defender just might get off his first shot at three feet, but he would probably have to move a bit.

It is unlikely that one shot would stop him immediately, so the defender would probably fire more than once.

But three shots in three seconds? The attacker would be about ten feet behind the defender when the third shot is fired.

Yes, most encounters occur at close range, but three feet is too close for comfort, if you can avoid it. And yes, not that averages matter a bit , three shots at close range may be reasonable. But one should probably try to shoot those three shots in about a second.

We've all heard it, sometimes with three feet, sometimes with three yards, but (1) averages really don't tell us anything, and (2) the source, though sometimes attributed to "the FBI", is something like that old "a highway patrolman told me...". Note: the FBI records distances for law enforcement shootings in which an officer is killed.

The Rangemaster stats from "Lessons in the Street" encompass just over sixty civilian defensive shootings. Distances range from contact distance (two incidents) to several dozen feet. 95% occurred at less than 7 yards; 93% at 3-7 yards; and 80% at 3-5 yards.

Hard to get average of one yard out of those data.

One cannot predict what will happen, but taking into account those data and the dynamics that would support a justifiable use of deadly force, it would probably be wise to concentrate most practice at ten to fifteen feet.
 
I was told the same thing in my CHL class, No source was given by the instructor.

I was pretty sure the FBI was the source, but it looks like they only cover police shootings..
But like I mentioned in my post I suspect police shootings are longer range then typical civilian.

So in my mind I think we need a source for civilian SD shootings, to really settle this.

Let me know if ya'll find one cause the rule of 3 sounds pretty sound to me (on average) source or not.


EDIT:
The Rangemaster stats from "Lessons in the Street" encompass just over sixty civilian defensive shootings. Distances range from contact distance (two incidents) to several dozen feet. 95% occurred at less than 7 yards; 93% at 3-7 yards; and 80% at 3-5 yards.
Sounds about right to me I can see that being legit.. I am pretty sure I heard the rule of 3 in yards, rather than feet but I can't recall now.
 
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The main facts are this... We have no idea what distance we will be required to draw and fire a CCW pistol, at all!

So, a toe of a sneaker, sticking out 4" behind a corner of a dumpster? Some one fired at you, then dodged behind a dumpster?

Can you hit that toe from 20 yards? A carefully aimed shot, aiming just in front (ricochet hit?) terrible pain, collapse, holding foot?
You leg it, call 911. Then your Insurance against prosecution of just this kind, mine is in my IPhone.

One possibility, there must be thousands of them.
 
Let me know if ya'll find one cause the rule of 3 sounds pretty sound to me (on average) source or not.
Really?

A second and a half between shots when the target assailant is trying to kill the defender at close range?
 
I always took the 3 seconds to either
1. include draw time
2. time attacker stops

not necessarily the total time between first and last shot

although I will say the shooting I heard there was about a 1 second pause between shots.

But it was not "close up" the guy came out of his house and found someone breaking into their car and shot them.
 
If someone is taking offensive action against you within three feet and you are capable of drawing and employing your weapon because of your practice in doing so without an opponent you are doing VERY well.
 
For defensive practice I use the "El Presidente", falling plates, steel challenge and 3 gun. Of the four the "El Presidente" is the most challenging. I am concerned that in a defensive situation I may be training myself to wait for the buzzer to go off...:(
 
Danoobie I've looked carefully and can find no evidence that the FBI has made any statements that your threesome rule is not true. I guess that settles it.:eek:
 
I am concerned that in a defensive situation I may be training myself to wait for the buzzer to go off...
It is only partly for that reason that I strongly recommend the I. C. E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting course.
 
Two of my students, as Armed Security Officers, in Toronto Canada, fired their revolvers, in self defense.

Case #!, Two uniformed men, driving a car, unmarked, the reason they were armed (Canadian Law) they were Technicians, with dozens of keys, that opened the ATM's owned by Universal ATM (Now sold) I trained these young people, and Re-Qls each year.

It started with a Road Rage incident, a bumped bumper. Culminating in a young man, approaching the armed driver of the Security Car, with the major portion of a pint glass (the one with a handle) that he had hit the unarmed employee, who had not received his carry permit yet. Now just a handle, with the shattered, sharp edges facing out. He was sipping rum out of this pint glass, driving down the road.

Mike the Guard, had drawn his S&W Mod 65 6 shot revolver, loaded with plus P 158g Semi Wad-cutter lead rounds. At eye level, stated our challenge.
"Stop, I have a Gun!" I know, a bit sissy. At 6 feet, he fired one round.

This round went right through the body, via the heart. It caused an instant stop, hence the second round (I taught always fire two) was not fired.

This round was found on the gurney when the cloths were cut off.

The second shooting. A Brinks Guard, who I used to train. Had his bag of cash, snatched by a first time offender, armed with a Colt 45, loaded with re-loads, 200g Semi-Wad-cutters (he was a target shooter) the Brinks employee, now is fighting eyes full of spray oven cleaner! But still chasing this man. And his bag of cash.

Coming round the corner of a small structure, he is confronted by the robber, taking cover behind a telegraph pole, aiming his gun at him, immediately going prone, he fired a double tap from his S&W Revolver.

He said he distinctly heard my Liverpool accent yelling "Front Sight, Front Sight" And I was not there. The distance from robber to Guard, 20 yards.

One round still going! One hitting lower body, end result, a Colostomy Bag fitted.

The round the bad guy fired, hit ground broke up, a piece of it entered left leg of the Brinks employee, small injury.

So my two shootings one at, 6' and the other, 20 yards? Makes no sense?
 
brit said:
So my two shootings one at, 6' and the other, 20 yards? Makes no sense?

What makes no sense?

One case was a shooting with the attacker closing the distance with a contact weapon, the other was a guard paid to risk his life to protect Brink's money. He had to chase after the fleeing robber to get within 20 yards of him and trade shots. Any private citizen doing the same would be crucified.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/12/woman_who_shot_at_home_depot_s.html

Tatiana Duva-Rodriguez thought she was doing the right thing when she pulled out her pistol and fired at a pair of shoplifters as they fled from a Home Depot store near Detroit. She wasn't, at least in the eyes of the law.

On Wednesday (Dec. 9), she was sentenced to 18 months of probation. And the judge stripped the 46-year-old woman of her concealed gun permit.

Duva-Rodriguez didn't manage to stop the shoplifters when she squeezed off several rounds outside the Auburn Hills store on Oct. 6, although she did flatten one of their tires.
 
In Washington state a civilian can legally use deadly force in the attempt to stop a felony in progress. As I understand it the action is "in defense of the state". Would I do the same thing? NO! Would I advise anyone else to do it? NO! I suggest keeping it to self defense and let the police defend the state.
 
45 Auto.

One case was a shooting with the attacker closing the distance with a contact weapon, the other was a guard paid to risk his life to protect Brink's money. He had to chase after the fleeing robber to get within 20 yards of him and trade shots. Any private citizen doing the same would be crucified.

It seems that we have the only comment on a post that does not suit the closed minds of some of our readers, has to be negative?

Democrats anyone?

We are discussing distances of real live gun fights! To make these two relevant?

You are chasing some one who has stolen your infant child? To explain the 20 yards.

Or the road rage, could have happened in Orlando. 6 feet!

It doesn't really matter, just think of the actual distance between individuals shooting. 6' and 20 yds. That is all I tried to bring forward.

And further more, good hits. Both two hands on the revolvers, both aimed shots, eye level, use of sights.

How many reports are we seeing, multiple shots fired, and misses?

Is this something we need to address?
 
Questions

I posted about shooting used shot shells scattered on the berm and shooting from the draw one handed.

Now a friend gave me about 50 full man sized silhouette paper targets and I want to see how my other shooting at the shells compare and what level I have reached.

All shots will be from the draw and at different levels . 1/4 hip , 1/2 hip , 3/4 hip and nose level.
What should each distance be for the different levels and what kind of groups should I expect to be considered reasonable ?

BTW - I am not an expert , just an old guy trying to improve my defensive skills.
 
What should each distance be for the different levels and what kind of groups should I expect to be considered reasonable ?
The distances should be whatever you want them to be, and don't worry about "groups" as long as they are in the "kill zone".

I'm sure some "expert" will be along soon to say that's wrong.
 
The distances should be whatever you want them to be, and don't worry about "groups" as long as they are in the "kill zone".
I agree here. Too many people get hung up on the group thing. That tends to take care of itself as you progress, and we aren't talking shooting for score here, just trying to make reasonably good hits on demand. While some are better than others, "any" hit on the other guy is good for you.

I would suggest pushing the distance beyond what you might think it should be. You'll learn more and I think youll be surprised at how far youre still putting them in there.

Id also incorporate movement as you draw into things too. I think thats more important than many seem to think.

I think the big advantage to using the photo type targets is, they help get your head in the game and condition you to think about where the shots need to go on the body, as opposed to simply COM, which isnt always where you might think it is. Body position and angle of the shot, can all change that, and if youre moving, is constantly changing.

Anymore too, Ive been putting a lot more focus on head shots, especially at closer ranges. They really arent that hard to quickly make at reasonable distances, and to me, make more sense.
 
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