Defensive Displays

In my younger days when I did private security and bodyguard work I had t hold a handfull of people at gunpoint over a period of several years. At the time I carried a Dan Wesson .357 Magnum with interchangable barrels. I used the 2.5 inch barrel for carry. In those days the "in" guns were .357's and
.45's. Although their were quite a few .38's floating around. Any way not one of them asked or cared what caliber my handgun was. They did not want to be shot by anything. In a class I attended years ago they said 85% of the time if you pulled your handgun the bad guys would usually think they needed to be somewhere else. As to the 15% that didn't they were either drugged, drunk, and/or crazy and you really needed to shoot then.
 
PK, my point is that a weapon should only be drawn with intent to fire. If all of the people in the study expected the BG to disengage on display, then 72% of the time it didn't work. If we accept this distribution as the norm, then individual personal defense training plans should be adjusted accordingly.

When I meet someone that is considering CCW, I have a discussion with them on the use of lethal force. The 1st question is always the same, "are you prepared to kill someone in self defense". I have heard a number of people say that they thought just displaying the weapon would be effective, so my next question is "it might be, but if it doesn't are you able to kill someone with your gun". A large number of people say no, I suggest then that they don't carry and help them pick out the strongest, stickiest, foam mace and a good pair of sneakers.

I'll use the numbers you shared the next time I have the lethal force discussion, they are thought provoking.
 
mrbro, change your wording slightly, and we can agree.

The gun should only be drawn if you are willing to fire it.

I can easily conceive drawing before I intend to fire, in an attempt to deter a bad situation. Note that the police do this fairly often, (relative to the number of times they actually shoot - not saying they pull all the time) yet they don't shoot all that often.

Your original wording is too close to some of the claims here, that, "If you draw, you have to fire or you'll be charged with brandishing!" etc.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't what you intended.
 
Mrbro,

You can find the all the statistics if you search "armed citizen analysis" here on TFL or Google.

The numbers are very thought provoking and challenge several common ideas in the carry community, particularly (IMHO) carry capacity and BUG necessity.
 
If it weren't for lawyers,,,

The laws against brandishing a weapon make for a tricky situation.

On one hand you are tempted to draw and present to try and convince a BG to run away,,,
You are perfectly willing to shoot if necessary but are hopeing the sight of your handgun will end the situation.

But our government (local and/or state) doesn't want to create an environment,,,
Where people are whipping out their handguns at the slightest provocation.

So legally, you are safer to draw and immediately fire,,,
Than if you draw and present without firing.

It's a crazy world we live in isn't it?

Aarond

A tourist wanders into a back-alley antique shop in San Francisco's Chinatown. Picking through the objects on display he discovers a detailed, life-sized bronze sculpture of a rat. The sculpture is so interesting and unique that he picks it up and asks the shop owner what it costs.

"Twelve dollars for the rat, sir," says the shop owner, "and a thousand dollars more for the story behind it."

"You can keep the story, old man," he replies, "but I'll take the rat."

The transaction complete, the tourist leaves the store with the bronze rat under his arm. As he crosses the street in front of the store, two live rats emerge from a sewer drain and fall into step behind him. Nervously looking over his shoulder, he begins to walk faster, but every time he passes another sewer drain, more rats come out and follow him. By the time he's walked two blocks, at least a hundred rats are at his heels, and people begin to point and shout. He walks even faster, and soon breaks into a trot as multitudes of rats swarm from sewers, basements, vacant lots, and abandoned cars. Rats by the thousands are at his heels, and as he sees the waterfront at the bottom of the hill, he panics and starts to run full tilt.

No matter how fast he runs, the rats keep up, squealing hideously, now not just thousands but millions, so that by the time he comes rushing up to the water's edge a trail of rats twelve city blocks long is behind him. Making a mighty leap, he jumps up onto a light post, grasping it with one arm while he hurls the bronze rat into San Francisco Bay with the other, as far as he can heave it. Pulling his legs up and clinging to the light post, he watches in amazement as the seething tide of rats surges over the breakwater into the sea, where they drown.

Shaken and mumbling, he makes his way back to the antique shop.

"Ah, so you've come back for the rest of the story," says the owner.

"No," says the tourist, "I was wondering if you have a bronze lawyer."
 
aarondhgraham said:
The laws against brandishing a weapon make for a tricky situation.

On one hand you are tempted to draw and present to try and convince a BG to run away,,,
You are perfectly willing to shoot if necessary but are hopeing the sight of your handgun will end the situation.

But our government (local and/or state) doesn't want to create an environment,,,
Where people are whipping out their handguns at the slightest provocation.

So legally, you are safer to draw and immediately fire,,,
Than if you draw and present without firing.

It's a crazy world we live in isn't it?

Aarond
Click to expand...

Very few places (if any) have laws where one would be charged with brandishing for drawing and not firing in what was a legit lethal force situation.

In fact, some places even have laws allowing for the display of a firearm as means to prevent a situation ESCALATING TO lethal force.
 
MLeake, I can see your point.

PK, thanks

aaron, bronze lawyers indeed.

I guess what gets me is the tone I sometimes see on the net. I see a lot of people who are not trained LEOs feeling like they can act as one because they are armed and out in the public. Carrying a gun does not make anyone Batman and a CCL is not a junior G man license. While we do have the right to carry, and many are trained on how to use their weapon, how many have really been trained on the whens and whys? The dialog often makes me wonder how many people are secretly hoping to encounter a situation.
 
Guys:
I was in law enforcement for a little over 3 years. Got out because of the corruption in it...All of you LE guys know what I mean!!!! I absolutely refused to be a part of it in any way. Period. I was also a range instructor in the service. Have had some good training that I always refer to in "situations'....There are some things that are worth remembering...John
 
I have had to draw once. It was a Sunday afternoon after church. My 6 yr. old son was in the back of the truck in his car seat at the time. It was sunny and mid-day and I pulled up to the atm to get some money for lunch. There was a car in front of me and I gave him a good car length of space to finish his transaction. He finished and I pulled up to use the machine.

Upon pulling up I looked around the truck and saw no one but as I put my card in the machine a young man caught my eye in the drivers side mirror, he turned quickly off the street side walk and headed straight for the truck at a quickened pace, not taking his eyes off the truck. It was mid June and HOT and he had a jacket on with one of his hands in the jacket which made things more suspicious. He was closing the distance rapidly so I reached into the glove box and pulled out a Bulgarian Mak, raising it up high enough for him to see me bringing it over to my lap and I dropped the safety off and prepared to verbally challenge him. Upon seeing the gun he immediately stopped looked straight down and did not move, he was about 10 feet from my rear bumper.

At that point the machine spit my money and card out and I quickly left. He still wasn't moving when I pulled out. Don't know if he was thinking of robbery or just being totally stupid at the atm.
 
I have only had to "display" a firearm once and thankfully that was all it took. The off duty officer and his dad that were with me also drew their weapons as well and fortunately common sense kicked in and the two idiots coming after us changed their tune. I wouldn't refer to any of the handguns involved as small, though and this wasn't a concealed carry situation. The other two guys with me had a 38 and a full sized 9mm and I had my 454 loaded with full power rounds since were on our hunting lease. Another incident on the same ranch came to a halt without having to remove my revolver from it's holster. As the aggressive individual approached me, I turned my right hip away from him at which point he realized what was on that hip (I made no threats and no move to draw). He turned tail and ran inside the trailer. This moron, who was a guest of another person on the lease had been driving right past people's stands at prime time right before dark and was poaching. He came toward me, used a few poorly chosen words, and was obviously looking for trouble despite having zero cause. I hadn't even said a word to him at that point. There are some crazy people out there.
 
Let me clarify please,,,

I stated: So legally, you are safer to draw and immediately fire,,,
Than if you draw and present without firing.

Again I should qualify that statement as it applies to my local situation.

The Payne County DA is not actually Anti-2A,,,
He does however have very strict policies on concealed carry.

He has directed the County Sheriff to cite any and all brandishing events,,,
And like good followers of the "letter of the law",,,
Our sheriffs do just that.

The problem for the person who brandishes to stave off a possible assault,,,
Is proving that an assault was in fact imminent.

Now I will grant you that my information is third hand,,,
But it comes from a friend who is a court clerk.

In just this year so far 2 people have lost their permit for brandishing,,,
I do not know the details of each case but the tendency is clear,,,
Payne County is not a concealed carry friendly place,,,
Brandishing is the excuse used by our DA.

Go figure,,,

Aarond
 
I find that reaching back towards your gun/holster will make most bad guys eying you for an easy score move on.
Click to expand...

Yep. I may have lucked out with this. Was in another state (GA) for a conference once and they didn't have reciprocity with SC, so I couldn't carry. I was walking back to my hotel on an empty block of downtown Atlanta (it's surprising how empty that place is in some spots). I saw a guy walking towards me on the same side of the sidewalk - he looked a little suspicious, and my hotel was a few blocks on the other side, so I figured since I needed to cross the street anyways, I'd just do it now.

Once I started walking across the street (he was still about 75 feet away) I faintly heard him mutter something to himself to the effect of "Oh now he's walking to the other side.". He crossed too. That's when my "Oh $hit." alarm went off. When he made it to the other side, I instinctively put my hand in my pocket to reach down for my gun. Unfortunately it wasn't there. All I had was a pocket knife. FORTUNATELY, he did see me reach down into my pocket and grab something. He walked back across the street and kept going.
 
Yeah, that brandishing thing is tricky, and it seems like it really does vary.

However, although you might lose your CCP for brandishing there Aaron, who KNOWS what would happen if you shot someone. If you pulled it and shot a guy who turned out to be unarmed, they'd probably send you to jail if you couldn't prove his intent.

One thing worth noting is that people who are about to try to rob you are probably not going to report you, because they probably have a criminal record. Not stats on that, just my gut feeling. If they did, it could go something like this:

Crook: "He brandished his weapon on me, officer."
You: "Why would I do that?"
Crook: "I don't know. Because you're crazy."
You: (to the officer) "I brandished my weapon because he was getting closer and closer to me on an empty street and following me wherever I went for hundreds of feet. I figured he was about to mug me. What's his criminal record, by the way? Compare that to mine, please."

If you don't get the chance to say this to the officer, just be ready to say it in court.

Oh, and don't carry too nice of a gun. ;)
 
AFAIK, here in CT, if anyone else can see the weapon, you're brandishing. So here printing is brandishing.

Smaug, you would have no prior knowledge of the other persons criminal record. If you pull the weapon before a threat is made you become the aggressor.

The minute that gun comes out, whatever the reason, an army of lawyers gets to make another sailboat payment.
 
This thread has brought up an interesting topic. That is a legal defense of "defensive display" against a charge of brandishing.

I wonder if statistics are available to indicate how many times various LEOs (national, state & local) pull their weapon from its holster and do not fire, vs. how many times a weapon is pulled and fired.

Certainly, any LEO would prefer not to have to fire. And one might be excused for thinking that many times the situation might de-escalate for the officer immediately when the weapon is unholstered. Being a sworn officer with weapon drawn, I would imagine that most such circumstances result in the arrest of the BG.

In fact, I would imagine that if statistics were kept on such things, they might show that many times, LEOs unholster their weapons when no immediate threat is perceived to themselves (no opposing display of force, such as approaching a car with gun drawing when an officer's "antennae" are up) or when a suspect refuses to stop whatever they are doing on command of the officer when what they are doing might not itself be a threat of harm to the officer or others nearby (as in a burglary in progress).

I wonder why legally armed citizens aren't given the same consideration. If the condition required one to pull their weapon, but the BG desisted or retreated upon display, why should that be a chargeable offense? We, not being sworn officers and not having handcuffs would typically let the BG retreat. Does that make it any less a de-escalation of force? The fact that the BG is gone, does not itself make the display brandishing.

As was said earlier, checking the rap sheet on the Concealed Carrier (CC) vs. the guy he pulled on would usually be illuminating and would lend credence to the CC's version of the story.

Does anyone know of any statistics or case law on this? Just wondering.
 
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AFAIK, here in CT, if anyone else can see the weapon, you're brandishing. So here printing is brandishing.
Click to expand...

That could be open to interpretation and you'd need to see the exact text of the law. If a pretty gal with a set of 36D's walks by in a tight shirt I can definitely tell what she's packin, but I still can't see them (much as I might want to ;)). I'd consider the same to hold true for a pistol under your coat.

As long as it's fully covered I'm not sure printing would count as the weapon being visible. Just as the aforementioned girl is safe from an indecent exposure charge because they're covered, I'd expect to be safe from a brandishing charge because the gun is covered.
 
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Defensive display is a neat piece of terminology,,,

But the reality is that the powers that be do not want to foster an atmosphere where even that is openly sanctioned.

They don't want to even hint that pulling a gun just because you feel threatened is an okay thing to do.

While I do not like to constantly be under the onus of brandishing,,,
I can understand their reluctance to allow defensive display.

I do believe that putting the official okay to defensive display will only result in more of our uneducated weapons carriers whipping out their heaters at the slightest hint of perceived danger.

Some nervous mom pointing a pistol at me because she thought I was walking too close to her in a parking lot (which has happened to me) is not a good thing.

Aarond
 
Funny you mention that Aaron, i am a property broker. I buy and sell buildings.

A few years ago i had a very high end unit in a fancy development over the holidays. I usually flip them quickly but the buyer was busy sorting out his finances. Since it was mine and it was over holidays and i was still unmarried, i invited friends over for a few days of poker, junk food, Pulp Fiction etc etc.

I parked my car in the lot and an old lady started threatening me. She was terrifying, going crazy and telling me i dont belong there. I was really intimidated and called the security guard, this made things worse as she went bezerk. I decided to avoid her and park elsewhere. I unfortunately had to walk past the scene of the 'incident'.

I walked slowly as i did not want to run into her again and lo and behold, there she was. As she started this madness again, her husband emerges holding a blue 38 and pointing it at me. He walked over and stood right in front of me. There i was, being held at gun point by a 75 year old.

I must admit that my instinct and training said to disarm and shoot. His gun was a few inches from me and it would have been easy. The security guard who was watching the whole thing came and demanded he put his gun down. I could call the cops on him but decided against it, i was extremely upset but kept my composure.

I returned to the flat, played poker, ate junk food and watched Pulp Fiction with my best friends.
 
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