Defense of Others

[SRH78]

I think it a valid point that we should not assume that all females are innocent because of their sex. Men sometimes have to defend themselves against women. And as has been posted on TFL many times, women who are victims of domestic abuse often paradoxically attack their defender, in defense of their own attacker/husband/boyfriend. It makes for a very difficult and volatile situations in which LE professionals tread quite carefully.

I agree with this. It is definitely a bad situation where judgement and restraint are critical. Much more so if you are armed.

 

[Evan Thomas]

...his bac would most likely have been checked at the station well after the fact and after his bac had dropped considerably. It is not unreasonable to assume that he was legaly intoxicated at the time of the shooting.

Not quite, unfortunately. His BAC was determined after his death during this incident, so I don't think it would have dropped much. I'm not 100% sure what happens to BAC post-mortem, but I believe it stays more or less what it was at the time of death, since the alcohol is no longer being metabolized.

The Minnesota standard for intoxication around firearms, which is the one I'm familiar with, is 0.04, or half the legal limit for driving, so he would have been illegal by that metric; I don't know whether MO has a comparable standard.

But was there enough alcohol in his system to impair his judgment? Probably. Did that contribute to his death? Hard to say. But it's irresponsible for anyone, police officer or not, to drink that much while carrying, and it sure didn't help.

 

[SRH78]

So, because he had a few.....not drunk he shouldn't intervene?

That is ludicrous, blowing a .04 at the end of the evening is not impaired, it is half the ludicrously low .08 threshold for DUI

You didn't read my posts very well did you? I never said he shouldn't have intervened. As for his bac, if you think he only had 2 or 3 drinks, you might as well still believe in Santa Claus. It could very easily have been hours after the fact before his bac was checked. If it was 2 hours, then he would have been legally intoxicated. If it was 3 hours, that puts him above .10. What I am saying is choosing to drink after making the choice to carry was irresponsible and he was probably well above .04 at the time of the shooting. I am not judging his actions in choosing to shoot because I wasn't there and don't know what happened.

Fyi, there have been a lot of people get out of DWI's because their bac wasn't checked until much later at the station. The prosecutors are well aware their bac was above the limit when they were stopped but that doesn't matter in court because all that matters is what it was when checked. I think it is safe to assume that the individuals responding were more concerned with trying to save his life, as they should have been, than checking his bac.

 

[SRH78]

Not quite, unfortunately. His BAC was determined after his death during this incident, so I don't think it would have dropped much. I'm not 100% sure what happens to BAC post-mortem, but I believe it stays more or less what it was at the time of death, since the alcohol is no longer being metabolized.

It was my mistake to say station instead of hospital. According to the story though, he died at the hospital so there likely was time for it to drop before he passed. I don't know either what happens post mortem but it makes sense that it would not continue to drop.

 

[Stressfire]

Defense of others is one thing, but coming to the aid of another and using lethal force would, at least on my part, require myself to be in danger as well. Fistfights are one thing, but running in to the middle of two armed individuals who have had a bit to drink? No thanks.

 

[Ringolevio]

Why I'm less eager to be someone's hero

TailGator:

I think it a valid point that we should not assume that all females are innocent because of their sex. Men sometimes have to defend themselves against women. And as has been posted on TFL many times, women who are victims of domestic abuse often paradoxically attack their defender, in defense of their own attacker/husband/boyfriend. It makes for a very difficult and volatile situations in which LE professionals tread quite carefully.

Boy, can I relate to this! When I was about 7 my dad told me, my mom and my baby sister to wait on the streetcorner while he crossed the street and broke up a big fight between 2 groups of men. That stayed with me and over the years I have intervened and broken up fights that did not involve me at all.

But one night many years ago, in Seattle, I was driving in my truck, windows open, and heard a woman screaming bloody murder. I turned the corner and saw a guy beating the hell out of this woman, up against a wall, repeatedly punching her face to a bloody pulp.

At that time my only weapon was a sawed-off Louisville Slugger I kept under the seat, plus I had my dog with me. I stopped the truck and my dog and I leaped out and confronted the guy. I grabbed his shoulder and swung him around and said, "What the **** is goin' on here?" I had the bat in my hand and my arm cocked to swing, and my dog was ready to jump on him also.

Before anybody could do anything, the woman started screaming at me, "YOU TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF OF HIM!!"

i was shocked, but I said, "You guys DESERVE each other!" and my dog and I got back in the truck and got out of there. Ever since then, I've been considerably less eager to intervene, even when the situation seems to clearly call for intervention.

And now that I'm routinely armed, I am even LESS inclined to get involved in a situation that clearly doesn't involve me, ESPECIALLY if it's between a man and a woman!

 

[Tengu01]

I have to concure with what BikerBill posted . Unless you positively ID the BG ( Bad Guy ) , Don't fire . Call 911 and let 5-0 sort it out . A shame , that story .