Defense against tyranny and the RKBA

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Second, I am always amazed how some gun owners undercut the RKBA.

1. It is useless to use firearms against tyranny.

Well, ignorance is bliss. Many might be unaware personally owned firearms were significant in supporting the Civil Rights movement against state sponsored or ignored night rider terrorists in that era.

Those who claim firearms are useless against a tyranny are the same ones who claim it would be nuts to try invading a country such as Iran based on the sole fact that it is 80 million people. But yet we're then told that a nation of 311 million people in possession of lots of arms would have any resistance crushed easily by a professional military force. If you have 1% of the population rise up, it would be 3 million people with arms. That's a hell of a lot to put down.

There are only so many places you can send tanks and troops and aircraft, and those require sustained logistics. Look up what Max Manus did to the Nazis in Europe during WWII. Blew up a supply ship, sabotaged rail lines, etc...tanks and aircraft don't move without fuel, infantry soldiers can't do anything without food and ammunition, etc...and unless you have a LOT of soldiers, maintaining a tyranny with an armed population is difficult.

If the government troops come with rifles primarily and the odd crew-served weapon or so and are rounding people up into trucks and so forth, it is hard to resist. But if the whole city or town is armed with rifles as well, then it gets a lot more difficult. You can't just knock on the door and say, "Get in the truck or else," because the person in the home can say, "Get lost, or else." So then you need to come in with the heavy-duty stuff, but that's then where you run up into the limits of numbers, logistics, etc...

2. A second undercutting of the 2nd Amendment is related. It is the folks who proclaim 5 is enough and those who have higher capacity guns are nuts or incompetent (if you can't do your job in one - blah, blah, tough guy). Or you shouldn't have an AR as you don't need them to hunt down Bambi or shoot Tweety Birds.

How you shoot when in an adrenaline-pumping situation is very different than how you shoot when relaxed, so such arguments about how much ammunition one "needs" is irrelevant. And then there's the whole fighting tyranny thing.
 
Logistics is never a strong point in some arguments. Folks need to study military history. As you point out a country with 300 million firearms in 40 percent of the households is a tough nut to crack.

But some people are rather defeatist, I suppose.
 
Logistics is never a strong point in some arguments. Folks need to study military history.

Logistics are what makes the Military possible..... it is also what makes modern America possible.
 
Most of the government workers I know, to include the military ones, strongest oath is to their pension.
Not all, but it sure seems like the majority.
 
Logistics is never a strong point in some arguments. Folks need to study military history. As you point out a country with 300 million firearms in 40 percent of the households is a tough nut to crack.

"Tacticians study battles, Strategist study logistics."
 
jdc1244 said:
The Second Amendment is important because it safeguards citizens’ rights to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, not to ‘guard against’ tyranny – that’s the role of the First Amendment.
As has already been mentioned ...

WRONG!
 
LogicMan said:
Whether this could happen in the United States would first require a few major things to go seriously wrong:

1) A tyrant to manage to take control of the government

2) The military to be on the side of the tyrant
What if the tyrant is the system?

What if it already is?
 
Most of the government workers I know, to include the military ones, strongest oath is to their pension.
Not all, but it sure seems like the majority.

A fat lot of good that'll do in an economic collapse: if the grid's down, and even if you have cash, or silver or gold ....in 3 days' time, there's nothing to buy ....... a pension's a government promise ..... at the point the .gov can't keep the lights on and the trucks running, what the hell does a promise of a secure paycheck for life and unlimited healthcare mean? The first two promises are dubious in the best of times on their face ...... think about it .....

and to be honest, most of the government workers that are servicing things that while statutorily are "non-discretionary spending" are not covered in the Constitution, like the Armed Forces are (which oddly enough are labeled as "Discretionary" ....it's almost like somebody was trying to make the system fail ...odd, that ..... hmmmm? ), could dry up and blow away tomorrow (though it would be a SERIOUS economic blow to the DC 'burbs ......) yet the business of the country would go on much as before .....the inner cities, however, would explode in violence ..... people with no skills would starve .... it'd be interesting, for sure ....
 
Logistics is that thing that revolutionaries never have.

I've often wondered about myself, when do I take out the shooting iron? When civil police take away the guy down the street, or when swat or military come for me? Will I withhold my fire for reasons of safety for family or neighbors, or will I just put on my Friday night best and go to town?

It's not clear to me, I doubt that others are so certain. Do I wait for orders from the nra or the governor, or who will define the line? I guess that every individual will be either the lone wolf, the rogue psychopath, or he will wait until he is absolutely certain that he has to resist.

What will I do? What will my neighbor do? (He will rat me out for a pack of hotdogs)

Ask yourself, work on that answer, decide what you will do.

Then ask yourself what you will do in case of riots or looters? (In my hometown, when a tornado ripped a quarter of the city into shreds, we had people picking the pockets of corpses and looters were at the pharmacies before the police even got there. But not a single looter was shot?

Our level of tolerance was pretty high, even when homeowners were surprised in their own houses by people with back packs and wheelbarrows.
 
Would the USA ever be in that situation? No one can tell. Countries become tyrannies under stress quite easily.
I would argue that countries that already enjoy freedom and law/order rarely become tyrannical. However, that does not mean that the citizens will not perceive their government as being a tyranny.

Look at what antifa is out there doing. Calling everyone a fascist, and saying that 'free speech is hate speech'. We can't say that all leftists are with antifa, but all antifa are willing to use violence to further their cause. They certainly believe they are fighting against tyranny.

And while we joke about the left being unable to mount up any kind of force because of their history of being anti-gun, that doesn't mean that they will not try to put together some kind of force. Read some of what these groups post on social media. The smarter ones make their facebook and twitters private, but few of them are smart.
 
If tyranny happened right here a few questions need to be asked. How will our military react, against us or against the tyranny ? What about law enforcement, which way will they go ? How would you communicate and organize people from all the states ?
 
I am very mindful of the Y2K problem...where a lot of local and state governments feared the loss of computers would severely disrupt the flow of basic staples to the masses

They had the historical example of NCY black outs that caused a lot of civil unrest, looting, killing, rioting, burning and a LOT of property destruction

Underground bunkers and command centers were built in a lot of major cities

Military bases reopened and stocked with all sorts of civil defense stocks...beds, food water...yadda yadda....

I, as a soldier, was part of a team converting a closed Army facility to deal with "Refugees" from Texas major cities

In the event of gross civil unrest, in a major city like Houston, where thousands of unruly citizens are arrested...

Where do we put them? Was a serious concern...and "they" did have a plan...

Large scale, giant well stocked "Concentration camps" for safe secure holding until logistics and basic services could get back to normal

New Orleans hurricane gave us some insight a few years back about trying to establish control and one of the orders was to IMMEDIATELY disarm ALL civilians

I think most any sane citizen who pays attention knows the Congress and Supreme court has WAY over stepped and have been unconstitutionally behaving since the late 1800s

Yet, as a voting force, we cannot seem to ever gain any traction to make a few more amendments like term limits, every elected official has to participate in and comply with every law they pass

How on earth if we can't agree, and work within the constitution, could we ever organize and take over to start again with an even stronger constitution...?

The powers be have already stacked the deck--- and if you dare to flow against it they will declare you a Terrorist...

At that point the worst legislation ever...by a guy I liked..GWB...with the Patriot Act...will strip you of ANY constitution rights

I believe there is NO path to civil armed insurrection in the USA...the current powers are too smart to be tromping around on the sorts of things that Might cause it

Major disasters, nation wide, or just localized ---may indeed see a need for organized citizens with force of arms...but so far, from the planning I saw in 1999 ---there was no part of the plan to augment National Guard or Police with that resource...
 
The Second Amendment is important because it safeguards citizens’ rights to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, not to ‘guard against’ tyranny – that’s the role of the First Amendment.

You may as well go ahead and turn them in now and bow to a future dear leader, then.

Logistics is that thing that revolutionaries never have.

I've often wondered about myself, when do I take out the shooting iron? When civil police take away the guy down the street, or when swat or military come for me? Will I withhold my fire for reasons of safety for family or neighbors, or will I just put on my Friday night best and go to town?

It's not clear to me, I doubt that others are so certain. Do I wait for orders from the nra or the governor, or who will define the line? I guess that every individual will be either the lone wolf, the rogue psychopath, or he will wait until he is absolutely certain that he has to resist.

What will I do? What will my neighbor do? (He will rat me out for a pack of hotdogs)

Ask yourself, work on that answer, decide what you will do.

Then ask yourself what you will do in case of riots or looters? (In my hometown, when a tornado ripped a quarter of the city into shreds, we had people picking the pockets of corpses and looters were at the pharmacies before the police even got there. But not a single looter was shot?

Of UPMOST importance to consider, you assume that the entire armed arm of the government will flex in lock-step to disarm the public and enforce a type of America that has never existed. This is very flawed logic.

Many members of the military believe in a strong 2nd Amendment and are firearms enthusiasts. In fact, if you speak with ALMOST ANYONE in combat arms, they will tell you that they would resist a government that tried to abolish the 2nd amendment. Law Enforcement? Same conundrum. Sure, many urban PDs would happily conduct raids to eradicate private firearm ownership, but don't tell that to the local boys.

In this fantastical envisioned future that we all should pray never does arrive, it won't be red dawn colonies of civilians facing against the entire united US Military. No, you will see Military units defect, taking their hardware with them. National Guard? Same. Law Enforcement Agencies? Same. Private Citizens? Same. That's what made the 2nd Amendment effective. It is, to date at least, a culture within the US. Many of our warfighters would quickly reject the notion that they are to be used to disarm the civilian population. If you doubt this, look at the names, logos, and ethos of many of the newly formed veteran companies (Black Rifle Coffee Company, anyone? Grunt Style?). It would be very difficult to argue that they are anti-2A.

This is the beauty of the 2nd Amendment. For the time-being, it is ingrained enough that we need not fear becoming like Iran, nor should we fear it's outright overnight repeal. Our elected officials basically know better. Our government knows the limit, and the thing we should fear the most is a slow erosion of our rights over time and not an executive order banning all firearms tomorrow. And we should celebrate the fact that we aren't Iran. I believe this was the point Glenn was trying to make.


And to counter the original argument about the purpose of the 2nd Amendment, I suggest you go read Federalist no. 46. It describes in detail both the argument for capping the size of a standing federal army, and arming the civilian populace to fight it. Certainly fighting a standard army in those days is a good deal simpler than what it would be today... but there was a time when a few backwoods Iraqi's were giving American forces a fit.
 
What if the tyrant is the system?

What if it already is?

Now that is an interesting philosophical debate. The argument that the system is the tyrant has merits... well, to a degree. The same system has saved our 2A rights in recent history though. Not to inject partisanship, but thank God that republicans had control of the house in 2012 and 2013. Were it not for that, the AR15 as we know it would likely have been banned nationwide. There are numerous other examples besides just gun rights.

I believe (hope?) that the system itself has limits on it's tyranny whereas a autocratic dictator with military support does not.
 
I believe guns play a major part in resistance to tyranny, that being said if the government rolls down the street with an M1A2 Abrams with drones and choppers overhead there's not much a bullet is going to do. I still believe you should rise up and fight against tyranny as that is a patriots job.
 
I believe that it's all a simply ridiculous question anyway.

Long before I decide that it's time for armed resistance against government, our society will be in total collapse. I will be shooting at my neighbors over my board of beans. Our government will be helpless to bring in gun owners.

Have you noticed what happens when the trucks stop moving in a big city? Imagine just for a moment if every inch of land east of Knoxville loses power, the houses are cold, warehouses are shuttered, pizza drivers have no gas, dennys has no eggs?

Traffic stopped moving here a few years ago because of ice, it literally absolutely stopped and the grid collapsed. No power for over a week. I walked to Wal-Mart for propane cylinders and that building was stripped. Even the pharmacies were dry. No toilet paper. No staff, anyway, no power for lights at other stores utter disaster, that period is even an entry on Wikipedia.

If there wasn't an inch of ice on the ground, there may have been new Orleans style destruction over thousands of square miles.

There is a great deal of unwarranted optimism. Nobody wants to face the literal truth that an apartment full of people with only a two day food supply, no power and no access to the outside will be just fine at the end of the week.

Life in America sits on a razor thin layer of safety even without humvees prowling main street.
 
This is the beauty of the 2nd Amendment. For the time-being, it is ingrained enough that we need not fear becoming like Iran, nor should we fear it's outright overnight repeal. Our elected officials basically know better. Our government knows the limit, and the thing we should fear the most is a slow erosion of our rights over time and not an executive order banning all firearms tomorrow. And we should celebrate the fact that we aren't Iran. I believe this was the point Glenn was trying to make.

Thanks for that and understanding what I was trying to say. A couple of other things. Sometimes gun folks seem to focus on the 2nd Amend. as existing to resist gun confiscation. That is too narrow a view. It is not about your high cap mag but tyranny in general. Second, focusing on fighting tanks with your AR is also a limited view. There aren't enough tanks in the Army and Marines (estimates range from 1500 active to 5000 total) to occupy the country.

It is a total reservoir of firearms that makes a military occupation (assuming cooperation as stated above) implausible to extremely difficult.

But that's end of the world talk which we don't really do here.

My point was the theoretical strength of the 2nd Amend. that supersedes the little details. An armed populace is an alternative source of power that deters tyranny as Hubert Humphrey said. Those who stated that this is not true really don't support firearms rights. If one feels you are useless in fighting tyranny - that may be so on a practical level - being an old fart. However, defeatist outlooks in theory are not useful to the RKBA cause.

Firearms exist as weapons - they are dangerous and cause tragedies. The reason we have them is because their usage for self-defense and prevention of tyranny supersede the damage they cause. If you do not buy these two reasons, basically there is no reason not to ban them. Maybe you can have your tweety bird O/U stored at the gun club to be checked out so you can go to your richy-rich private dove hunt.

The antigunners make the point that SD is really not that important. They cite research that SD uses are really trivial. They scoff at the defense against tyranny. I do note that some on the left (some progessives and minorities) are full on board with defense against tyranny.

Five is enough, I'm a sportsman and guns aren't for defense against tyranny - Well, I'm ok with banning you from having a gun to be a little cranky.
 
Well, yes, and well said.

But not even the remotest chance of cataclysmic breakdown is involved in the current need for number two, right? We have greater worries to prepare with guns for. We have better reasons to own them.

We need to worry about boiling like a frog, not about jackboots. Our anti-constitutional elements have learned to use the whittling knife rather than the battle axe. First it's magazines and battle rifles, next they take your kid's airport.
 
Well, I was pretty much with you, up until you said "guns cause..." and at that point, was unable to tell if you were describing the anti's attitude or being tongue in cheek.

I'm afraid I'm still in the old outmoded way of thinking about inanimate objects, that they have no will, or ability to do anything on their own.

Nor have I ever been in favor of banning (surrendering to the crown) ANY object or item because someone had done something bad with it.

I do not see the logic some people use that allows arms for self defense, but not for defense against tyranny. Defense against tyranny IS SELF DEFENSE!!!

As I see it, the only difference between thugs harming you and yours and government thugs doing the same is the uniform they wears and the assumed mantle of legitimacy on the part of the government.

And, of course, the scale of their resources.

One of the big problems when we discuss individual arms in defense against tyranny is that the discussion almost instantly shifts, and focuses almost completely on, whether or not such a defense could be successful, in the modern world.

While this is a topic worthy of consideration, it is a separate topic from the premise of having arms to use against tyranny. Simply put, if one does not HAVE arms to use, their successful use against ..anything.. is a moot point.
 
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