Deadly force justified, you bet !!

Well I’m sure I’m not going to make any friends with this one, but come on guys; I can’t believe only two people here think this was a little excessive. I am getting the feeling the consensus here is if you run from the cops, they can and should kill you.

First off at no point did this guy try to ram into another car – watch the video again, all his maneuvers were evasive.

I don’t see how any officers could have been injured in this pursuit, except for the two who crashed into the perp’s car. I have read this guy was a drug dealer and in a stolen car
( not sure if this is true or not ), but from what is shown in the video, this started when the first officer saw this car partially in a ditch and flipped on his lights, it didn’t seem like the original officer was after this guy. Unless it is known to be a fact that this is the case (stolen car), it is entirely possible and probable that this guy was running because of a suspended license or warrant or something petty that usually people end up running for (I am not excusing his actions). Even if it was a stolen car, it appeared to me this chase was just because the guy took off, and they probably never knew the car was stolen until after it was over.

The other thing that seems to keep coming up is the cop on the hood of the car “trying to avoid being run over”. If you watch closely at t=3:55 this officer jumps onto the hood while the car is stopped. The driver also must not have tried to get going very fast if this officer was able to stay kneeling on the hood without loosing his balance. Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy wasn’t even conscious after the second collision squarely on his door. This car was also not going anywhere with the number of cars converging on it and the damage it had taken. This chase had ended.

This was a dangerous chase, but some of the posts about this make it seem like it was on crowded streets with children running around and such. I only saw one red light and one other car that was not police. If this chase was so dangerous why not call it off – if the fleeing car cannot be quickly stopped and it is putting innocent bystanders in harms way, I think, and this is just my opinion, the chase should be called off unless it is absolutely necessary to apprehend the suspect, like with a murder suspect etc. I don’t think a stolen car justifies the risk to other people. I know if my wife were killed after the police chased a guy like this all over town, I would be FURIOUS at the police for keeping up the chase for something like a stolen car, or just because the guy ran. If it can’t be stopped quickly, it’s not worth the terrible things that can happen. If a chase lasts more than a minute or so, there’s a pretty good chance it’s going to end in a crash of some sort.

I want to preface this by saying I’m sorry John. I usually agree with what you say, and think you seem extremely knowledgeable but
the first time the suspect displays an obvious and wanton disregard for public safety he should be treated exactly as I would be treated if I went to a heavily populated area and started shooting randomly.
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Are you saying anyone who flees the police should be killed? Most would say DWI is a wanton disregard for public safety – should this also be a capital offence? How about driving 50 mph over the speed limit, how about 25? Maybe a better solution for any of the above would just be life imprisonment.

in my state an officer can shoot you if you are fleeing from a felony arrest.
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If fleeing itself is a felony, does this mean they automatically can kill you just for running?

I am all for getting violent criminals off of the street, but as far as I can see, this guy was trying to get away – not purposely trying to hurt anyone. I just feel that this guy was killed because of adrenaline, and to teach him a lesson. I think the guy made some VERY bad choices, but the manner in which he was killed was in my opinion quite excessive. The chase was over, This guy was punished for what he had done. What he did was stupid and dangerous – even to other people, but geez, they actually killed him.
 
SilentArmy said:
I think the officers should receive a bonus check for 1% of the millions of taxpayers dollars that were saved by finishing this event in a professional and appropriate manner.
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Good idea. Let's provide an economic incentive for police officers to shoot to kill rather than follow the law. After all, "Saving Taxpayer Money" is definitely more honorable and important than "To Serve and Protect." Hey, maybe the Captain can establish quotas to improve precinct profitability. Yeah! And he can put up a whiteboard in the common area.

"Hey, Cap, put another two checkmarks on the board - I just capped another husband-wife speeder team!"

"Attaboy, Smitty! You're gonna get the pink Crown Vic at the end of the month for sure!"

:barf:
 
Are you saying anyone who flees the police should be killed?
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Hardly. I'm saying exactly what I said, oddly enough. ;)

A person who demonstrates an obvious and wanton disregard for public safety should be treated exactly as I would expect to be treated if I went to a heavily populated area and started shooting randomly.
I know if my wife were killed after the police chased a guy like this all over town, I would be FURIOUS at the police for keeping up the chase for something like a stolen car, or just because the guy ran.
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You mean because it makes so much more sense to blame the police instead of the person who committed multiple felonies before and during the chase? :D
I am all for getting violent criminals off of the street, but as far as I can see, this guy was trying to get away – not purposely trying to hurt anyone.
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Going back to my illustration about starting to shoot randomly in a populated area. It's not like I would be aiming AT anyone, I would just be having a little fun, not purposely trying to hurt anyone. ;)

I still can't sum it up any better than this:

I've never understood why someone using a deadly weapon indiscriminately in a populated area (driving a car at reckless speeds) is given a bye while someone using a deadly weapon indiscriminately in a populated area (firing a gun randomly) is rightly considered to be a deadly threat.
 
My respect for cops has been eroding for the last 15 years. They generally don’t make my list of ‘favorite people’. However I do strive to judge any situation based on its merits without letting my feelings cloud the facts.

That being said, my hat’s off to the boys in blue on this one!!! They tried every way available to stop this idiot. When all else failed they finally capped him. I’m amazed he didn’t kill someone. Had the cops let him continue he doubtless would have done so. The perp’s life instead of an innocent bystander? No contest in my book. Kudos to the cops on this one.
 
I've never understood why someone using a deadly weapon indiscriminately in a populated area (driving a car at reckless speeds) is given a bye while someone using a deadly weapon indiscriminately in a populated area (firing a gun randomly) is rightly considered to be a deadly threat.
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JohnKSa,

I'm with you on that...... I've never understood why there hasn't been a court case supporting deadly force being used against someone fleeing in a vehicle and recklessly endangering the lives of EVERYONE in or near their path.
 
It looked to me like the policeman was afraid the driver would keep going and either hit him or "drive" him off the hood of his car. The car was still moving and the policeman might have been afraid the guy would accelerate. The driver had already proven he was dangerous afterall.

The policeman had to protect himself from what I saw. But it is a little sketchy, I will admit that.

It seemed to me that the policeman was afraid for his life and maybe the lives of others.

I mean, for the entire video you could tell the policeman was getting scared. And I can understand why. Cops are human and get scared just like anyone else. I have to defer to what the policeman said happened in this situation. The driver was out of control and doing very bad things with his car IMHO. The video shows at least that much IMHO.
 
I found it interesting here and in other chase videos when officers claim the subject has tried to ram them when in fact the suspect was simply trying to get past the officer.

Sycamore Heights, I just had a vehicle try to ram me.
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This happens between 20-30 seconds in the video. Had the subject been trying to ram the officer, he would have been able to do it. Notice it wasn't like the officer's highly skilled driving allowed him to avoid being struck by the vehicle he reported tried to ram him. The suspect obviously was trying to get around the officer and the officer had to pull forward to strike the vehicle.

Note that the vehicle pulls into the center of the road, stops, but the tires are turned hard right (vehicle's right). The cop pulls in front of the direction the tires are pointed. The vehicle starts to move and the driver realizes the wheels are taking him toward the officer and so he cuts his vehicle to his left to AVOID hitting the officer at which time the officer pulls forward to strike the suspect vehicle.

Given that the officer reported the suspect vehicle tried to ram him, I find his very low speed collision with the suspect vehicle to be fairly pointless. If he truly thought the suspect tried to ram him, then why didn't he punch the accelerator in order to hit the suspect with force? He didn't do much more than just let his vehicle roll into the suspect vehicle as the vehicle drives by.

This was a stolen car. The guy tried to run over 2 officers AFTER he rammed their cruisers.
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Given what the officer said at the start of the video, I wonder if the guy really tried running over officers or if he simply drove by their position. I wonder if he really rammed them or if they drove into his line of travel in order to impede his progress with their vehicles.

What I am talking about here is actual intent. The officer at the beginning of the video reports he hit the suspect who tried to ram him. More correctly stated would be that he tried to stop the suspect vehicle as it rolled past him by using his vehicle, but that was not what was reported.

I am not sure the shoot was justified based on what I saw in the video. Given what was reported in the video, I don't trust the officer's reporting of intent.

Was the guy very dangerous during the chase? Yes. Was he dangerous after being t-boned? I don't know.
 
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Ok I do have some mixed thoughts on this one. 1) two officers let him go by to join the chase instead of using stop sticks 2) he was evading but the officer rammed him from the side causing the vehicular contact first 3) After a semi successful pit the officer jumps on the hood and shoots the vic instead of boxing him in with other vehicles. Yup I see IAD and a wrongful death court appearance in that officers near future. That said do I think that suspect should be allowed to run, around here if it is a populated area and the officer is the cause of the accident (by chasing) he is instantly at fault for anything that happens in a high speed pursuit. It has cost our city millions. Plus they got his tag, terminate the pursuit and have someone waitng in his driveway when he pulls in. He wracked up enough charges that they he will lose his liscence.
 
Plus they got his tag, terminate the pursuit and have someone waitng in his driveway...
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The car was stolen, as it often is in these types of pursuits. Getting the tag number is useless in terms of apprehending the driver.
 
Monday Morning QB'ing

I wasn't there, I didn't see it. Having been involved in a few after-action report sessions, debriefs and two shooting incidents myself while serving with the Marines, I know this for sure:

After the fact, everyone and their mother can analyze your actions. In the moment, you act based on your training and your experience. Me, I'm alive, here, now. I had a lot of years of bad feelings about those two shooting incidents and with age and wisdom I realize the old adage is so, so true. It's them or me. I choose Me.

LE is not easy. God Bless all the men and women in uniform.
 
Sgt. Fathead, I agree with you. Hindsight is always 20/20. Instead of analyzing these things for better ways to handle defensive scenarios it seems like we often either defend or persecute the action instead of coming up with a better way to have possibly handled it.

That would be like learning...it's way easier to defend or sling mud. I need to be more aware of that in the future.
 
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