de-activating the grip safety in a 1911
- Thread starter kitman
- Start date
I agree. Reactivating an old thread is, in affect, starting a new one and doesn't preclude it from being interesting. Makes better sense than the same subject coming up repeatedly, time after time.
With the way grip safties are designed these days, I don't think it's necessary. Even the smaller hands seem to deactivate them reliably.
mapsjanhere
New member
Because otherwise the second post would be "use the search function"?
We need a hall of fame for repeating topics.
The grip safety issue probably deserves a little discussion. My dad is a person who's palm forms a pocket in his grip over the bottom of the grip safety. When we took our first Gunsite class he had repeated occasions in learning the presentation when it wouldn't let him press the trigger. He'd never had that problem shooting the Goldcup in bullseye matches, so apparently this was something that only happened when he was shooting fast, or else the Springfield 1911 grip safety needed to be depressed further than the Goldcup safety did to deactivate. Maybe he still had the arched mainspring housing on the Springfield and that was an issue? I don't recall? The smithy installed a metal clip that retained the grip safety for him during the class.
The military may have added the grip safety, but I do see a purpose for it, which is to prevent discharge when the thumb safety is off and the gun is dropped, muzzle up, onto the grip frame. It's a pretty specific accident, but if you try to train enough recruits with a weapon for a long enough period of time, it will eventually happen. I expect that's what the military considered.
Unlike the 1911, the High Power has a pivoting trigger. It is dramatically more difficult to get inertia from dropping it to fire that mechanism than it is with the 1911 design, where inertia can drive the trigger straight back. I am always astonished by how many target shooters and 1911 owners with custom trigger jobs have guns which allow the hammer to follow when the slide goes forward if they don't remember to depress the trigger first. The half-cock is not adequate for these. Indeed, the rollover angle most trigger jobs put on the back edge of the sear nose to prevent bounce on engagement can defeat the half-cock if it's hook is rounded, as it often is. Such a gun is precisely the kind that will go off when dropped as I described, and should have a working grip safety.
You can, as HiBC said, get a grip safety with a hump that extends it back to meet your palm. On any grip safety you can remove excess engagement by filing the underside of the step in the extension until the safety releases earlier in its travel, but still works in full rearward position. The pivot radius ratio is close to 2:1, comparing the nose of the step to the bottom edge of the grip safety. So, filing 0.010" off the step releases the safety about 0.020" earlier in its movement at the bottom. And that may be all it takes. This is one of those take-just-a-little-off-at-a-time-and-try-it jobs.
Don't chamfer the bottom edge of the extension nose to do more than remove burrs if you the above, or the trigger may slip under it. Be aware you are marrying the grip safety to your particular trigger bow, and that it may not work with a different trigger afterward. Install the trigger your heart desires first.
If, for some reason, you just can't find a way to live with a functioning grip safety, at least invest in a flyweight trigger and don't have the trigger adjusted extra light. The lighter weight the trigger, the less inertia it has to slam against the disconnector, and through it, the sear. The heavier the trigger pull, the less likely it is that slam will knock the sear off the hammer hooks.
The grip safety issue probably deserves a little discussion. My dad is a person who's palm forms a pocket in his grip over the bottom of the grip safety. When we took our first Gunsite class he had repeated occasions in learning the presentation when it wouldn't let him press the trigger. He'd never had that problem shooting the Goldcup in bullseye matches, so apparently this was something that only happened when he was shooting fast, or else the Springfield 1911 grip safety needed to be depressed further than the Goldcup safety did to deactivate. Maybe he still had the arched mainspring housing on the Springfield and that was an issue? I don't recall? The smithy installed a metal clip that retained the grip safety for him during the class.
The military may have added the grip safety, but I do see a purpose for it, which is to prevent discharge when the thumb safety is off and the gun is dropped, muzzle up, onto the grip frame. It's a pretty specific accident, but if you try to train enough recruits with a weapon for a long enough period of time, it will eventually happen. I expect that's what the military considered.
Unlike the 1911, the High Power has a pivoting trigger. It is dramatically more difficult to get inertia from dropping it to fire that mechanism than it is with the 1911 design, where inertia can drive the trigger straight back. I am always astonished by how many target shooters and 1911 owners with custom trigger jobs have guns which allow the hammer to follow when the slide goes forward if they don't remember to depress the trigger first. The half-cock is not adequate for these. Indeed, the rollover angle most trigger jobs put on the back edge of the sear nose to prevent bounce on engagement can defeat the half-cock if it's hook is rounded, as it often is. Such a gun is precisely the kind that will go off when dropped as I described, and should have a working grip safety.
You can, as HiBC said, get a grip safety with a hump that extends it back to meet your palm. On any grip safety you can remove excess engagement by filing the underside of the step in the extension until the safety releases earlier in its travel, but still works in full rearward position. The pivot radius ratio is close to 2:1, comparing the nose of the step to the bottom edge of the grip safety. So, filing 0.010" off the step releases the safety about 0.020" earlier in its movement at the bottom. And that may be all it takes. This is one of those take-just-a-little-off-at-a-time-and-try-it jobs.
Don't chamfer the bottom edge of the extension nose to do more than remove burrs if you the above, or the trigger may slip under it. Be aware you are marrying the grip safety to your particular trigger bow, and that it may not work with a different trigger afterward. Install the trigger your heart desires first.
If, for some reason, you just can't find a way to live with a functioning grip safety, at least invest in a flyweight trigger and don't have the trigger adjusted extra light. The lighter weight the trigger, the less inertia it has to slam against the disconnector, and through it, the sear. The heavier the trigger pull, the less likely it is that slam will knock the sear off the hammer hooks.
rickyjames
New member
i'd say that if you don't like the design then buy another type of gun.
lefteyedom
New member
It's your gun.
It is your pistol, build it the way you like it,
Just take responsibility for it.
I love my Remington Rand Essex Frankenstein 45. If it should ever be fire in defense of myself or others, all the custom gunsmithing work done to it will not help me in a court of law. That is a risk I accept. For the record all the safeties work fine on mine.
It is your pistol, build it the way you like it,
Just take responsibility for it.
I love my Remington Rand Essex Frankenstein 45. If it should ever be fire in defense of myself or others, all the custom gunsmithing work done to it will not help me in a court of law. That is a risk I accept. For the record all the safeties work fine on mine.
Old Thread
Old or not this is new to me and thanksfor the thread. During CPL practice on occasion my gun didn't go bang. This is due to riding the safety high and having the web of my hand push up on the beavertail. So far I've resolved the problem with a good thick rubber band. If someone asks I say I'm having problems with my grips falling off due to stripped screws. Now my gun goes bang every time when I draw and pull the trigger. I'll worry about the legal ramafications if I ever need to use my gun in a defensive situation or I'll take the rubber band off after. I want my gun to go bang if I need it to.
Old or not this is new to me and thanksfor the thread. During CPL practice on occasion my gun didn't go bang. This is due to riding the safety high and having the web of my hand push up on the beavertail. So far I've resolved the problem with a good thick rubber band. If someone asks I say I'm having problems with my grips falling off due to stripped screws. Now my gun goes bang every time when I draw and pull the trigger. I'll worry about the legal ramafications if I ever need to use my gun in a defensive situation or I'll take the rubber band off after. I want my gun to go bang if I need it to.
Trousselle
Inactive
Bonjour,
Merci pour ce tour d'horizon très complet
A bientôt
Michel
Merci pour ce tour d'horizon très complet
A bientôt
Michel
Judging by his other designs, JMB never believed in any safety on a hammer gun except the half-cock. As for "who knows if a grip safety was or wasn't intended in the final design", we do know, since the final design was produced. But Browning's original patent, and the first FN model shop models for what became the BHP show NO safety devices of any kind.
Jim
Jim
I have since discovered I was only getting a semi-iffy grip safety release even with a bump on the grip safety.Careful study told me ,between the high grip beavertail and my big,meaty hand an arched mainspring housing just held the heel of my hand too far back,and the hollow in the center of my palm was not making positive contact.It may be a Wilson,I found a great flat mainspring housing that is a slightly round butt style,nicely checkered.I really like it,and the grip safet problem is positively cured.
Jammer Six
New member
In my book, only fools deactivate safeties on 1911s.
So all of the posters who believe that deactivating a grip safety is such a terrible thing to do, do any of you even understand exactly how the grip safety works and what it does and doesn't do? I have to keep from laughing whenever I hear people freak out when they hear a that grip safety has been deactivated but don't see any problem with the design of a Glock.
Only a fool would disable 1911 safeties?
Based on comments on his website, I guess Larry Vickers must be a fool, then, as he mentions the possible benefits of a pinned or taped grip safety.
(Actually, more than one reputable writer has mentioned the possibility of a hand injury combining with a 1911 grip safety to effectively disable the weapon in a defensive scenario.)
Based on comments on his website, I guess Larry Vickers must be a fool, then, as he mentions the possible benefits of a pinned or taped grip safety.
(Actually, more than one reputable writer has mentioned the possibility of a hand injury combining with a 1911 grip safety to effectively disable the weapon in a defensive scenario.)
Yeah, I am a fool. I have three 1911s and all of them have the GS pinned down. I learned shooting USPSA comp for quite a few years that sometimes you don't get a perfect grip but you still need to to be able to fire the gun. I never really understood what the GS what supposed to prevent anyway. If you don't touch the trigger until you WANT the gun to fire what exactly is the GS preventing? If your finger is on the trigger when you DON"T want the gun to fire then all the safeties in the world aren't going to save you.
Drail,
The 1911 grip safety prevents firing if you drop the cocked and unlocked gun and it lands on the back corner of its grip frame. In that scenario, the inertia of the trigger and bow can be great enough to carry them into the sear and depress it. Pivoting triggers don't so typically cause this issue as a portion of their mass is on either side of the pivot pin, so the trigger mass on the side opposite of the pin from the stirrup tends to neutralize at least some of the stirrup's inertia.
The Glock doesn't need the grip safety because the safety in the trigger serves the same purpose in the drop scenario: like the grip safety, it isn't depressed when the gun is dropped. Besides, the Glock trigger is light (not much inertia) and pivots, so it does have of the neutralizing effect, where 100% of the 1911's inertia tends to help depress the sear and trigger return spring leaf in that drop scenario.
Note that anything that reduces the 1911 trigger mass helps fight the problem. The original 1911 trigger is steel, and is heavy for its size. The original Colt Goldcup trigger is also steel and is wider and heavier, plus it is often combined with lightened sear engagement, so the problem is even worse with it (which is one reason the little spring buffering sear depressor was added to Goldcup sears). For the average 1911 owner, therefore, the threat of inertial firing on drop may be mitigated by going to a trigger with a skeletonized aluminum stirrup and lightened bow. That takes a lot of the inertia out for both the accidental drop scenario and for when you depress the slide stop to chamber a round without depressing the trigger first (as all bullseye match shooters learned to do with the Goldcup).
The 1911 grip safety prevents firing if you drop the cocked and unlocked gun and it lands on the back corner of its grip frame. In that scenario, the inertia of the trigger and bow can be great enough to carry them into the sear and depress it. Pivoting triggers don't so typically cause this issue as a portion of their mass is on either side of the pivot pin, so the trigger mass on the side opposite of the pin from the stirrup tends to neutralize at least some of the stirrup's inertia.
The Glock doesn't need the grip safety because the safety in the trigger serves the same purpose in the drop scenario: like the grip safety, it isn't depressed when the gun is dropped. Besides, the Glock trigger is light (not much inertia) and pivots, so it does have of the neutralizing effect, where 100% of the 1911's inertia tends to help depress the sear and trigger return spring leaf in that drop scenario.
Note that anything that reduces the 1911 trigger mass helps fight the problem. The original 1911 trigger is steel, and is heavy for its size. The original Colt Goldcup trigger is also steel and is wider and heavier, plus it is often combined with lightened sear engagement, so the problem is even worse with it (which is one reason the little spring buffering sear depressor was added to Goldcup sears). For the average 1911 owner, therefore, the threat of inertial firing on drop may be mitigated by going to a trigger with a skeletonized aluminum stirrup and lightened bow. That takes a lot of the inertia out for both the accidental drop scenario and for when you depress the slide stop to chamber a round without depressing the trigger first (as all bullseye match shooters learned to do with the Goldcup).
Harry Bonar
New member
gripsafety
Sir;
Leave it alone!
Harry B.
Sir;
Leave it alone!
Harry B.
Willie Sutton
Moderator
The 1911A1 that I carried thru Gunsite and afterwards had the the most simple "deactivation" possible: Remove the grips, use good quality black electrical tape to tape down the safety (three complete wraps around the entire frame and safety) and then re-installation of the grips. You never know it's there (and on my old 1911A1 with the parkerizing, you can't see it either).
Simple = Good.
Willie
.
Simple = Good.
Willie
.