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DAO
- Thread starter bullet44
- Start date
Back in the early 80's when law enforcement was transitioning from the revolver to the semi-auto, the DAO was marketed as being the easiest vehicle to train your old war-horse wheelgunners on. Many police administrators and range officers, particularly on larger depts, felt that the consistant trigger pull of the DAO compared to the DA/SA was the best way to train officers accustomed to their sixgun.
Why are DAOs so popular today? In a word.....Glock. This company has turned the law enforcemnt world upside down with a dependable, lightweight, hi-capacity, and relatively inexpensive handgun. Glock's success in the police market has been amazing. Other companies, not wanting to be left out in the cold, have jumped on Glock's bandwagon with their own DAOs.
Is there an advantage to DAO? As a police administrator watching his training budget, yes. Training of officers used to their six shooter and/or training the new recruit, who may have never even picked up a handgun before, is easier and quicker with the DAO. As a shooter who learned and practiced on the conventional double/single action semi-auto, no there is no advantage. Just my opinion.
Why are DAOs so popular today? In a word.....Glock. This company has turned the law enforcemnt world upside down with a dependable, lightweight, hi-capacity, and relatively inexpensive handgun. Glock's success in the police market has been amazing. Other companies, not wanting to be left out in the cold, have jumped on Glock's bandwagon with their own DAOs.
Is there an advantage to DAO? As a police administrator watching his training budget, yes. Training of officers used to their six shooter and/or training the new recruit, who may have never even picked up a handgun before, is easier and quicker with the DAO. As a shooter who learned and practiced on the conventional double/single action semi-auto, no there is no advantage. Just my opinion.
I like Double action only, providing that it is a light DAO like Kahr has. In fact, I don't see why anyone would want anything different. SA/DA seems to be a legacy system, kind of like driving with a stick shift before automatic transmition came along (of course there will always be those who prefer the stick).
I think that light doa will become the future. It is simple and I think people can be more accurate with this type of trigger action (providing it is light and smooth). I personally don't think that the Glock trigger is smooth and as a result, I am less accurate with a Glock than with a Kahr.
[Edited by Mr. Pub on 01-02-2001 at 10:01 AM]
I think that light doa will become the future. It is simple and I think people can be more accurate with this type of trigger action (providing it is light and smooth). I personally don't think that the Glock trigger is smooth and as a result, I am less accurate with a Glock than with a Kahr.
[Edited by Mr. Pub on 01-02-2001 at 10:01 AM]
I must respectfully disagree with JohnK007. The glock is NOT double action only. It's technically called "safe-action" (whatever that is), and I consider it what I call "one and a half action". Double action means the pull of the trigger does two actions: pulls back the hammer and eventually releases it. The glock has the hammer/striker pulled back part of the way by the racking of the slide or the recoil of the previous shot, and the trigger pull only pulls the hammer/striker back half way, and then releases. The biggest difference between a Glock and a true DAO is that if you have a failure to fire and pull the trigger a second time, a DAO will hit the primer again while the Glock will not.
That being said, I'm not a fan of DAO but still own two of them: a S&W 342ti and a Kel-Tec P11. The only advantages I see to them is that lack of an exposed hammer to snag on anything (since I normally carry these in a pocket or ankle holster).
That being said, I'm not a fan of DAO but still own two of them: a S&W 342ti and a Kel-Tec P11. The only advantages I see to them is that lack of an exposed hammer to snag on anything (since I normally carry these in a pocket or ankle holster).
I prefer a gun which has a consistent trigger pull. I don't like DA/SA, because it is harder to master the transition between the long, hard double action first shot and the short, easy single action second shot. I prefer either single action, safe-action (e.g., striker-fired like Glock or Kahr), or DAO. From a training perspective, DAO or safe-action is the easiest to teach -- all you do is pull the trigger. No safety or decocker to manipulate. That's not an insigificant feature for police departments who are always short on training time and money.
The only issue with DAO is that the trigger pull shouldn't be too heavy. The S&W DAOs (e.g., 3953, 4053, etc.) are supposed to have very nice triggers (lighter than the double action trigger in the DA/SA models like the 3913). The new LEF trigger for the HK USP is also supposed to be quite nice.
M1911
The only issue with DAO is that the trigger pull shouldn't be too heavy. The S&W DAOs (e.g., 3953, 4053, etc.) are supposed to have very nice triggers (lighter than the double action trigger in the DA/SA models like the 3913). The new LEF trigger for the HK USP is also supposed to be quite nice.
M1911
M1911 said it very well. DAOs offer one of the same advantages as DA revolvers, in that they have a consistent trigger pull for every shot, and one that is longer than a SA pull. Agencies like the latter feature for liability reasons. I prefer a consistent pull for each shot, whether it is a short SA pull or a long DA pull. As M1911 said, the DA pull should not be too heavy, nor should it be rough and stagey.
In training new shooters, I find they have little problem with DAO guns, or SA guns. But give them a traditional DA, and watch them yank the first DA shot, and/or crunch the second (SA) round off the paper.
Years ago I spent lots of time training with a SIG P220 to master that DA/SA transition. Now, I rarely carry a traditional DA auto, and only train with one occasionally to maintain my proficiency -- mostly for students who opt to train with such guns. I have little use for them, with a few exceptions.
In training new shooters, I find they have little problem with DAO guns, or SA guns. But give them a traditional DA, and watch them yank the first DA shot, and/or crunch the second (SA) round off the paper.
Years ago I spent lots of time training with a SIG P220 to master that DA/SA transition. Now, I rarely carry a traditional DA auto, and only train with one occasionally to maintain my proficiency -- mostly for students who opt to train with such guns. I have little use for them, with a few exceptions.
(In training new shooters, I find they have little problem with DAO guns, or SA guns. But give them a traditional DA, and watch them yank the first DA shot, and/or crunch the second (SA) round off the paper.)
Not trying to be argumentative but I question why it's a
problem to have more options, cannot the average person
or police officer be trained to pull the hammer back on
a DA gun, rather then "yank" the first double action shot.?
Two points, why hamper the officer with a DAO that has a
trigger so hard to pull you need to have it in a vice for
accuracy, or if they cannot be trained to use a DAO they
should not be on the street.
Perhaps a DAO can be "smith worked" for better pull but
most dept's will not spend the money or time to do it.
Not trying to be argumentative but I question why it's a
problem to have more options, cannot the average person
or police officer be trained to pull the hammer back on
a DA gun, rather then "yank" the first double action shot.?
Two points, why hamper the officer with a DAO that has a
trigger so hard to pull you need to have it in a vice for
accuracy, or if they cannot be trained to use a DAO they
should not be on the street.
Perhaps a DAO can be "smith worked" for better pull but
most dept's will not spend the money or time to do it.
Bullet44 said:
"Not trying to be argumentative but I question why it's a
problem to have more options, cannot the average person
or police officer be trained to pull the hammer back on
a DA gun, rather then "yank" the first double action shot.?
Two points, why hamper the officer with a DAO that has a
trigger so hard to pull you need to have it in a vice for
accuracy, or if they cannot be trained to use a DAO they
should not be on the street.
Perhaps a DAO can be "smith worked" for better pull but
most dept's will not spend the money or time to do it."
In a stressfull situation, the police officer is unlikely to think about cocking the hammer, and even if he did, the adrenaline may make it hard for him to do so. Furthermore, some DA/SA designs don't let you manually cock the gun (e.g., S&W 3913).
Someone carrying a gun must be able to quickly draw their gun and fire quick, accurate shots. For most people, it is harder to do this with a DA/SA and requiring someone to cock the gun beforehand would slow things down and make it more fumble prone. Having more options isn't always good.
Finally, most DAOs and striker-fired guns do not have "a trigger so hard to pull you need to have it in a vice..." For example, the NY trigger on a Glock is about 8lbs. The pull on a Kahr is around 7 lbs. The new LEF trigger for the USP is about 7 lbs. The trigger pull on the DAO S&W 3953 is less than the DA pull on its DA/SA clone 3913.
M1911
"Not trying to be argumentative but I question why it's a
problem to have more options, cannot the average person
or police officer be trained to pull the hammer back on
a DA gun, rather then "yank" the first double action shot.?
Two points, why hamper the officer with a DAO that has a
trigger so hard to pull you need to have it in a vice for
accuracy, or if they cannot be trained to use a DAO they
should not be on the street.
Perhaps a DAO can be "smith worked" for better pull but
most dept's will not spend the money or time to do it."
In a stressfull situation, the police officer is unlikely to think about cocking the hammer, and even if he did, the adrenaline may make it hard for him to do so. Furthermore, some DA/SA designs don't let you manually cock the gun (e.g., S&W 3913).
Someone carrying a gun must be able to quickly draw their gun and fire quick, accurate shots. For most people, it is harder to do this with a DA/SA and requiring someone to cock the gun beforehand would slow things down and make it more fumble prone. Having more options isn't always good.
Finally, most DAOs and striker-fired guns do not have "a trigger so hard to pull you need to have it in a vice..." For example, the NY trigger on a Glock is about 8lbs. The pull on a Kahr is around 7 lbs. The new LEF trigger for the USP is about 7 lbs. The trigger pull on the DAO S&W 3953 is less than the DA pull on its DA/SA clone 3913.
M1911
From a very early post at TFL...
check out this link which will answer your question as to why DAO guns were developed:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5
check out this link which will answer your question as to why DAO guns were developed:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5
I've also read where police trainers worry about the post-shooting safety of DA/SA.
An officer has been forced to draw and fire. (S)he is experiencing the after-effects of a tremendous adreneline dump -- tunnel vision, diminished fine motor skills, etc. The threat may be over, but the officer is still holding a cocked SA pistol. Will the officer remember to decock before holstering? Will the officer even remember to take the finger off the trigger?
An officer has been forced to draw and fire. (S)he is experiencing the after-effects of a tremendous adreneline dump -- tunnel vision, diminished fine motor skills, etc. The threat may be over, but the officer is still holding a cocked SA pistol. Will the officer remember to decock before holstering? Will the officer even remember to take the finger off the trigger?
I'm glad there are lots of choices out there!
But personally, I like the consistant single action trigger pull. Single action requires that one learn to keep the finger outside the trigger guard and off the trigger until you actually want to fire! I see a lot of shooters that have never trained until this is instinctive, and as a result are unsafe.
One thing I don't understand is the advantage of a "light double action only"! As I understand it, the advantage of double action is the long, strong, trigger pull. It is less prone to ND even if the finger is within the trigger guard when it shouldn't be. However, if the action is "light DAO" then all the advantage of double action only is negated.
At least that's how it looks to me. Enlighten me if I need it (I often do...)
But personally, I like the consistant single action trigger pull. Single action requires that one learn to keep the finger outside the trigger guard and off the trigger until you actually want to fire! I see a lot of shooters that have never trained until this is instinctive, and as a result are unsafe.
One thing I don't understand is the advantage of a "light double action only"! As I understand it, the advantage of double action is the long, strong, trigger pull. It is less prone to ND even if the finger is within the trigger guard when it shouldn't be. However, if the action is "light DAO" then all the advantage of double action only is negated.
At least that's how it looks to me. Enlighten me if I need it (I often do...)
RA Nash - The problem, in my mind with SA is that it usually comes in a DA/SA configuration. Where you have either a long, hard pull on your first shot or you have to manually cock the trigger.
I'm happy with a light trigger, provided that it comes with some type of manual safety. Its my understanding from reading a post here somewhere that Kahr is coming out with a manual safety on their guns to meet california requirements which would be idea in my view.
I'm happy with a light trigger, provided that it comes with some type of manual safety. Its my understanding from reading a post here somewhere that Kahr is coming out with a manual safety on their guns to meet california requirements which would be idea in my view.
I'm working my way through this dilemna in preparation for CCH. I currently use (not carry) a 1911 with a refined trigger so use of a safety is foremost in my mind. I investigated numerous brands and styles of CCH sized handguns but keep coming back to how to safely carry it and be able to use it went necessary without fumbling with the safety.
Then one night over the holidays I watched one of these hidden camera shows. The one that impressed me was a security camera showing a scene in a jewelry store. A "patron" comes in and inquires about something in one of the cases. The shop owner comes into the picture and you can see his back and the handgun in SOB. I watched the "patron" turn around to leave the store and then turn back after pulling a handgun from his belt. The owner saw what was happening and reached to pull his gun from his holster. The voice over said it all. The owner pulled the gun but fumbled with the safety. During his fumble time the "patron" put 7 rounds into the owner. He then put gun to the man's head and pulled the trigger. Click. He was out of ammo. The "patron" then fled the store. The store owner lived, but was shot up pretty bad.
That episode convinced me DAO is the only way to go. When a feco-ventalatory event is about to happen, you generally appreciate simplicity over elegance every time.
Am I being overly influenced by a TV show?????
Then one night over the holidays I watched one of these hidden camera shows. The one that impressed me was a security camera showing a scene in a jewelry store. A "patron" comes in and inquires about something in one of the cases. The shop owner comes into the picture and you can see his back and the handgun in SOB. I watched the "patron" turn around to leave the store and then turn back after pulling a handgun from his belt. The owner saw what was happening and reached to pull his gun from his holster. The voice over said it all. The owner pulled the gun but fumbled with the safety. During his fumble time the "patron" put 7 rounds into the owner. He then put gun to the man's head and pulled the trigger. Click. He was out of ammo. The "patron" then fled the store. The store owner lived, but was shot up pretty bad.
That episode convinced me DAO is the only way to go. When a feco-ventalatory event is about to happen, you generally appreciate simplicity over elegance every time.
Am I being overly influenced by a TV show?????
I like the DAOs out on the market. I've carried one now for over 5 years. I like them because "if" I ever have to draw it in a real situation, I will always have a long heavier pull. In a real situation, your adrenaline is pumping and you dont realize your own strength. You don't have the fine sensory feel in your fingers either. If I have to use the gun, ( after a shot or two ) I wont end up with a cocked hammer while I'm full of adrenaline and probably with a finger on the trigger ( due to being in a life/death situation ). It will require a descent amount of pressure to make the gun fire in case of a startle on my part or sudden movement of a just fallen bad guy. I like the insurance in that, I'm "probably" a lot less likely to have an unintentional discharge in this nerve filled situation. Long live the DAO! By the way....I've been a firearms enthusiast for over 20 years and have probably fired over 200,000 rds in that time. I'm an experienced shooter.
Mr Pub,
I really hope you're right about Kahr! (Stoopid CA laws!! But maybe something good will come of them, if they inspire gun makers to make more models with manual safeties.)
Yes, that first trigger pull on the DA/SA is long and hard and therefore inconsistent with the rest of the shots unless you carry "cocked and locked" (condition 1). Condition 1 scares a lot of people. However, in my opinion (which I share with a LOT of people, like Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith, etc.), Cocked and locked is NOT dangerous provided:
1) one's gun has been thoroughly checked out by a competent smith who verifies that all safeties are properly functional, and
2) one's level of training and practice is such that the safety is used properly and the shooter is trained to not bring the finger into the trigger guard until ready to fire.
So, it seems to me, if you're comfortable with a light trigger as long as there is a manual safety, then you would be comfortable with condition 1. Which you would be able to use on a Kahr if they put the manual safety on it. I really appreciate certain models, such as the CZ75/85, and the Browning High Power and others that give one the choice of going DA/SA or going condition 1. Then the user can take whichever method they are most comfortable with.
I wasn't that comfortable with condition 1 until I got some serious training. There is no substitute for a minimum of three days of defensive pistol training from experts. Then, after learning the techniques, one must practice them!
Of course, I understand that not everyone is going to have the opportunity or means to be able to get such training. Which is a shame, because it's invaluable, confidence- inspiring, possibly life-saving, and a lot of fun to boot.
That's how I see it, at least for now.
Rich
I really hope you're right about Kahr! (Stoopid CA laws!! But maybe something good will come of them, if they inspire gun makers to make more models with manual safeties.)
Yes, that first trigger pull on the DA/SA is long and hard and therefore inconsistent with the rest of the shots unless you carry "cocked and locked" (condition 1). Condition 1 scares a lot of people. However, in my opinion (which I share with a LOT of people, like Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith, etc.), Cocked and locked is NOT dangerous provided:
1) one's gun has been thoroughly checked out by a competent smith who verifies that all safeties are properly functional, and
2) one's level of training and practice is such that the safety is used properly and the shooter is trained to not bring the finger into the trigger guard until ready to fire.
So, it seems to me, if you're comfortable with a light trigger as long as there is a manual safety, then you would be comfortable with condition 1. Which you would be able to use on a Kahr if they put the manual safety on it. I really appreciate certain models, such as the CZ75/85, and the Browning High Power and others that give one the choice of going DA/SA or going condition 1. Then the user can take whichever method they are most comfortable with.
I wasn't that comfortable with condition 1 until I got some serious training. There is no substitute for a minimum of three days of defensive pistol training from experts. Then, after learning the techniques, one must practice them!
Of course, I understand that not everyone is going to have the opportunity or means to be able to get such training. Which is a shame, because it's invaluable, confidence- inspiring, possibly life-saving, and a lot of fun to boot.
That's how I see it, at least for now.
Rich
I agree that carrying cocked and locked is a valid way to carry, however I still think that DA/SA is the result of an old design. I also think that an exposed trigger is old design. Some people like it because they say they can restrike a round that fails to fire. My opinion is that if a round fails to fire it will take me just as much time to eject it as to recock. Why take a chance in it not firing the second time? Plus, as mentioned earlier, exposed triggers can snag on things. That is why I dont like the 1911 design with the big trigger horn (or whatever its called) sticking out.
The other thing I like about a light DAO is that one can shoot more accurately. All it takes is a little bit of struggle with a stiff trigger like with an uncocked DA/SA to throw your first shot way off -especially in a high tension situation.
To me an ideal design would be Kahr, with a manual safety positioned like the Steyr pistols. Sticking down from the top of the trigger guard, where when you stick your finger in the trigger guard you can feel the safety being down and you push it up without looking at it.
That is also why I like the safety on the 870 shotgun. The after market big safety that is. When you pick up the shotgun and slide your finger near the trigger, you can't help but notice that the manual safety is on and you can push it in to release it without looking.
[Edited by Mr. Pub on 01-03-2001 at 12:21 AM]
The other thing I like about a light DAO is that one can shoot more accurately. All it takes is a little bit of struggle with a stiff trigger like with an uncocked DA/SA to throw your first shot way off -especially in a high tension situation.
To me an ideal design would be Kahr, with a manual safety positioned like the Steyr pistols. Sticking down from the top of the trigger guard, where when you stick your finger in the trigger guard you can feel the safety being down and you push it up without looking at it.
That is also why I like the safety on the 870 shotgun. The after market big safety that is. When you pick up the shotgun and slide your finger near the trigger, you can't help but notice that the manual safety is on and you can push it in to release it without looking.
[Edited by Mr. Pub on 01-03-2001 at 12:21 AM]
laissezfirearm
New member
Why DAO?
Pocket pistols, for one.
Colt Mustang: Cute little gun with a
cute little manual safety. Must ride
in holster.
Colt Pony Pocketlite: Cute little
pocket pistol that you can actually
slip into your pocket.
And the Seecamp. And the Guardian . . .
Pocket pistols, for one.
Colt Mustang: Cute little gun with a
cute little manual safety. Must ride
in holster.
Colt Pony Pocketlite: Cute little
pocket pistol that you can actually
slip into your pocket.
And the Seecamp. And the Guardian . . .
Ragin Cajun
New member
DAO rocks. Have you ever looked closely at a Kel-Tec p-32?
There's nothing sticking out the sides or the top. It's tiny at 3/4 inch wide and smooth. Put the belt clip and attach to your pants under the belt and it disappears and doesn't poke you. The DAO IS the safety. One in the pipe is safe. Once you have trained with it or the P-11, you love them. And you do shoot other guns better because you have REALLY had to learn trigger control and to keep the gun steady.
Operation is simple: draw, point, shoot, put back. No safety off, no decocking, etc. Yes, I know practice with other modes work, but to each his own.
There's nothing sticking out the sides or the top. It's tiny at 3/4 inch wide and smooth. Put the belt clip and attach to your pants under the belt and it disappears and doesn't poke you. The DAO IS the safety. One in the pipe is safe. Once you have trained with it or the P-11, you love them. And you do shoot other guns better because you have REALLY had to learn trigger control and to keep the gun steady.
Operation is simple: draw, point, shoot, put back. No safety off, no decocking, etc. Yes, I know practice with other modes work, but to each his own.