Dangerous Game Caliber Question

Let me clarify My position

Gentlemen,

If you understood my posts to claim that the .45-70 is superior to a .375 H&H, a .416 Rigby, or other well known Dangerous Game Cartridge, I apologize. That was not my intention.

I simply wanted to point out that modern .45-70 loads are not the cream-puff loads that so many people think they are. While the .45-70 might not reach the minimum limit in some countries, remember one thing. Those limits were established by politicians. I refuse to believe that African Politicians are any more intelligent than politicians the world over.

With proper bullets, correct bullet placement, and a heavy load, I still say that the .45-70 is capable of killing any game animal. Compare the ballistics from Buffalo bore, Cor-Bon, and Garret to the ballistics quoted for such famous African cartridges as the .450 BPE, and .450 #2, or even the .450 NE. If those greand old cartridges were considered fine elephant and buffalo cartridges, why the flap about .45-70's?

Some one asked about the performance of a .45-70 load on a game animal at 200 yards. Personally I would not take the shot. While I have no compunction at shooting paper or steel targets pout to 600 yards and further, my game limt for a .45-70 is 100 yards. If the shots are at longer range, I'd use a scoped bolt action in a different caliber. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." And I know mine with a .45-70.

Now, defense of the .45-70 aside, if I were going on an African Buffalo hunt, which rifle would I take? If legal, I'd take my .45-70 Marlin along as a backup gun, but for my primary gun, I'd take the opportunity to buy a .416 Rigby bolt action of some sort. As I said, .416 Rigby, preferably in a John Rigby & Sons rifle is one of my rifles.


Doc Hudson
 
While the .45-70 might not reach the minimum limit in some countries, remember one thing. Those limits were established by politicians. I refuse to believe that African Politicians are any more intelligent than politicians the world over.
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If you're hunting their country, you're stuck following their rules. Reason and logic are irrelevant.
With proper bullets, correct bullet placement, and a heavy load, I still say that the .45-70 is capable of killing any game animal.
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Sure it can, just like the .303 British, the 7x57, and, for that matter, even the tiny little .22 long rifle have been used to kill elephants. That doesn't make any of these a good choice for big, dangerous game.

Compare the ballistics from Buffalo bore, Cor-Bon, and Garret to the ballistics quoted for such famous African cartridges as the .450 BPE, and .450 #2, or even the .450 NE. If those grand old cartridges were considered fine elephant and buffalo cartridges, why the flap about .45-70's?
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Maybe because cartridges like the .450NE put a 480 grain slug out at 2150, for around 5000 ft.lbs of muzzle energy. Likewise the .450 No. 2. A far cry from ANY .45/70 load. (I'm not sure the .450 BPE, being a black powder cartridge, was considered elephant medicine.)

Today's .45/70 loads are formidable, and a great improvement over the trapdoor Springfield loads. But IMHO they don't make good rifles for elephant, buffalo, rhino, or even lion.
 
This from the wise man who went after a black bear with a .357? Please

Well, I waren't narly so wise then as I is now... :D

Like a I said, that was a while back, lo these twenty+ years ago.
 
20+ years ago? Why, practically yesterday! :D

I've said it before: My sure-nuff "knowledge" about African game is strictly armchair. 'Bout all I'm doing, here, is speculating.

Fun, though.

:), Art

PS: I wonder if Rich knows how tall of a wall it takes to hang a buffalo head, where it doesn't look all out of proportion? A buddy of mine did an African hunt, some 30 years back. To be able to show off the heads, he wound up building a new house, with the living room having a two-story cathedral ceiling. A large and long living room, as well. One elephant and one buff and it looked crowded! Those suckers are BIG!
 
Art, my shoulder mount buff are hanging in a room with a 12 foot ceiling and I have had to choose the same solution as your friend, a new home with a 20 foot cathedral.Kudu and eland present similar problems.I cannot imagine an elephant shoulder mount. I ain't just the safari costs, but the taxidermy and new home that really add up! Rob
 
I've got a buff above my fireplace - 10' ceiling - and it looks fine, though it DOES tend to dominate the room. My entryway has a 12' ceiling, so I put my kudu up there. Other stuff is scattered around the house. My taxidermist was working on a shoulder mount of an elephant - even in his studio, the only word to describe it was ENORMOUS. And he was negotiating with another client to do a life-sized elephant. He was holding out for $50,000 to do the mount. He didn't really want to tackle it, but if someone shoved enough $$$ at him...

(If I ever took an elephant, I'd have room for the tusks. Period.)

He showed me pictures of another client's trophy room addition, which cost $500,000 about 10 years ago. He had a lot of life-sized full mounts, so he needed the space. The trophy room had a 22' ceiling, which allowed the LIFE SIZED GIRAFFE MOUNT at one end to stand upright.
 
I always figured a dedicated African hunter oughta live in a converted WW II blimp hangar or equivalent. :)

Of all African animals I've seen in zoos or in pictures, the kudu "turns me on" for a trophy more than any other. There is something about the aesthetic appeal of the horns which attracts me as much as a good white tail or mulie...

Art
 
A classmate of mine had an oryx/gemsbok on the wall of a living room with an 8' ceiling. The nose was maybe 3' off the floor.
 
Art, a nice kudu epitomizes African plains game - it just says "AFRICA!" even to people who don't know what it is. A gemsbok - with its stark, black and white facial markings - is more striking, but less known.

But my favorite antelope trophy has got to be the sable. The jet black coat, offset by a white blaze on the face, surmounted by over 3 1/2 feet of curved horn ... just gorgeous.

Of course, if you're not limiting yourself to plains game, a full-mount leopard is nice, too, but so is a zebra rug, or a . . .aw heck, I love 'em all. Even the lowly warthog hanging in my bathroom has a certain charm.
 
As long as one doesn't stand in front of the warthog, all lathered up to shave, wondering why the image in the mirror is immobile...

:D, Art
 
Well, I've got a buddy on here that has the Africa bug and the 45-70 gonna kill me a buffalo bug. And he's been talking it for longer than anyone I know. Darned if he hasn't given me the African bug. Even got me a Marlin Guide gun. I won't be taking it to Africa, though. I'll be the guy with the .505 Burns or the biggest damn rifle I can find standing back up, saying,"Go for it, but for God's sake, make it count."
 
The 376 Steyr was made a .375 to meet legal hurdles in some African countries from what I understand.

At least one former PH that writes for the gun rags had smaller clients take Buff with his 300 Win and 220 solids. Though he was backing them up with a 416.

Then on the other extreme there are people like Harald Wolf who developed the 500 Jeffery Improved, with a 535 grain bullet @ 2400+fps [a bit more powerful than Cooper's 460 G&A], for elephant.

Though the 45-70 wouldn't be my choice for hunting buff, if someone would be willing to pay for the safari if I used a 45-70. I would be more than happy to go without any backup, as long as I could pick the load. :D
 
I believed that the diameter was the salient point in the caliber restrictions...

Thanks, Spartacus. If it's your shot, I'll be happy to back you up with whatever you like- though I would be especially happy with
.458
.416 Rigby, or (preferably)
9.3x64mm
 
Hey, Glamdring, the idea of "backup" is not so much to have the other guy ready to shoot. The idea is to have somebody to see how good ya done, and then argue over whose shorts got the worst stains.

:D, Art

"Repetition does not make firefights boring."
 
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