Dangerous Game Caliber Question
- Thread starter pwd
- Start date
Probably not. Some countries require a caliber produce a certain amount of kinetic energy - usually, they base this on the 4500 or so ft. lbs a .375 will produce. (They probably convert ft. lbs to joules.) I've never seen a published .45/70 load that will make this cut. I understand other countries simply said caliber had to be "Over .40" which technically would let you use a .41 mag, but outlaw the .378 Weatherby.
If the printed regulations just list the caliber as the minimum, then local officials may decide the matter. (If you think bureaucracy HERE is bad, you've never been to Africa!)
Your best best is to ask your professional hunter. Me, I'd be reluctant to use a .45/70 on any dangerous African game other than leopard.
If the printed regulations just list the caliber as the minimum, then local officials may decide the matter. (If you think bureaucracy HERE is bad, you've never been to Africa!)
Your best best is to ask your professional hunter. Me, I'd be reluctant to use a .45/70 on any dangerous African game other than leopard.
Doc Hudson
New member
HankB,
Check out both Garret Ammunition and Buffalo Bore Ammunition sites. Both companies make .45-70 Gov't ammo that will cleanly kill any animal that walks the earth.
Doc Hudson
Check out both Garret Ammunition and Buffalo Bore Ammunition sites. Both companies make .45-70 Gov't ammo that will cleanly kill any animal that walks the earth.
Doc Hudson
HankB is spot on. The graft and corruption are prodigious. Minimum caliber requirements are usually grounded in reality, at least in Zimbabwe, Botswana and South Africa. For the big nasties, buff,jumbo and hippo,where body weight is measured in tons, bounding through the bush while undergunned is exceedingly foolish. Rob
There's a universe of difference between cowboy load .45/70 and the whoopass stuff Buffalo Bore puts out. The published loads for their stuff go over 3,500 ft. lbs., with a much bigger bullet than a .375 throws. It's not nitro express, but I still doubt anything could survive a direct hit.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
There has been some recent discussion in http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=64786
Art
Art
Why?
Why arm yourself with a .45/70 in Africa, while there are a host of better calibers suited for the job?
Even in its hottest configuration (peace to Mr. Garret and his excellent products), the 45/70 can't beat the .375H&H.
Consider the following:
1. If you use a "standard" 45/70 load, you will be marginally-gunned for all but moderate game at moderate ranges. A rainbow trajectory is not one I want to be stuck with at an expensive hunt - especially one after dangerous game.
2. If you go for dangerous game, you will be undergunned, even with the most powerful loads. There is a difference between a 45/70 lead solid at less than 2,000 f/s and a 300-400 grain controlled-expansion premium bullet at 2,500. Sure, any animal can be "killed" with anything (under the proper conditions). If you think your money (at best) or your butt (at worst) is worth the risk, go for it!
3. If you go for "common game", the 45/70 does not cut it in terms of trajectory compared with a .375 or a .416. Period. Again, anything can be "killed", even with a .22 Hornet. But if I pay the better part of $10,000 on a hunt on the other side of the world, I don't want to be handicapped by anything, if I can avoid it. And given the overwhelming choice we have in terms of caliber nowadays, I most definitely can avoid it.
A .45/70 is best suited for what it was intended: either potting stationary buffaloes (not the most spooky of animals) at known distances and in the open, or as a short-range powerful carbine number.
The .375 and .416 are also best suited for what they were intended. Killing animals of unknown size, aggressivness and toughness at (reasonably) unknown distances; and killing them very dead, before they make minced meat out of you or an innocent bystander.
In a way, that's why those caliber-related game laws exist in the first place: to prevent some to make a mess out of things in the attempt of proving that "their caliber" can do it all.
But if you choose to take your 45/70 to Africa, make sure you have a backup: either a flat-shooting magnum (for plains game) or a .375 (or .416) for the big 'uns.
Why arm yourself with a .45/70 in Africa, while there are a host of better calibers suited for the job?
Even in its hottest configuration (peace to Mr. Garret and his excellent products), the 45/70 can't beat the .375H&H.
Consider the following:
1. If you use a "standard" 45/70 load, you will be marginally-gunned for all but moderate game at moderate ranges. A rainbow trajectory is not one I want to be stuck with at an expensive hunt - especially one after dangerous game.
2. If you go for dangerous game, you will be undergunned, even with the most powerful loads. There is a difference between a 45/70 lead solid at less than 2,000 f/s and a 300-400 grain controlled-expansion premium bullet at 2,500. Sure, any animal can be "killed" with anything (under the proper conditions). If you think your money (at best) or your butt (at worst) is worth the risk, go for it!
3. If you go for "common game", the 45/70 does not cut it in terms of trajectory compared with a .375 or a .416. Period. Again, anything can be "killed", even with a .22 Hornet. But if I pay the better part of $10,000 on a hunt on the other side of the world, I don't want to be handicapped by anything, if I can avoid it. And given the overwhelming choice we have in terms of caliber nowadays, I most definitely can avoid it.
A .45/70 is best suited for what it was intended: either potting stationary buffaloes (not the most spooky of animals) at known distances and in the open, or as a short-range powerful carbine number.
The .375 and .416 are also best suited for what they were intended. Killing animals of unknown size, aggressivness and toughness at (reasonably) unknown distances; and killing them very dead, before they make minced meat out of you or an innocent bystander.
In a way, that's why those caliber-related game laws exist in the first place: to prevent some to make a mess out of things in the attempt of proving that "their caliber" can do it all.
But if you choose to take your 45/70 to Africa, make sure you have a backup: either a flat-shooting magnum (for plains game) or a .375 (or .416) for the big 'uns.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
416Rigby: Randy Garrett sez his 540-grain ammo will "shoot lengthwise through a buffalo".
Stipulate that this is a "true fact"; I don't want to get into an argument about it.
So: How does one improve upon lengthwise penetration of such an animal as the African buffalo?
, Art
Stipulate that this is a "true fact"; I don't want to get into an argument about it.
So: How does one improve upon lengthwise penetration of such an animal as the African buffalo?
, ArtDoc Hudson
New member
Here are the loads and performance for Buffalo Bore's
.45-70 Magnum Loads
Item 8A: 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) $41.50
Item 8B: 405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs. - Expander Load) $40.00
Item 8C: 350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3427 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) $40.00
NEW!
500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)
A non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the
deepest penetration on the largest game animals. $52.00
Item 8D:
Cor-Bon also offers modern .45-70 loads such as:
Everyone keeps asking for powerful loads for the .45-70 Govt. HERE THEY ARE! The 350gr Bonded bullet will slam through the toughest hide and bone that is likely to come down the trail after you. This load works great in the popular lever guns and will take on anything you encounter. Controlled expansion provides good penetration and a tissue tearing mushroom.
Added to the lineup is the 405gr Flat Point Penetrator. One look at this bullet and you know this is a load to be reckoned with. Nobody makes a bullet even close to this for power and penetration. The wide flat point, sharp crisp edges, and heavy full metal jacket combine to produce devastating knockdown energy. Like all the Cor-Bon Penetrator loads, no expansion is expected or needed. Bone crushing power will take on anything - anywhere.
.45-70 Government 350gr Bonded-Core Soft Flat Point
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 1800 1658 1526 1405 1296 1248 fps
Energy 2519 2137 1810 1534 1307 1125 ft/lb
Path -0.50 1.33 0.00 -5.07 -14.55 -29.55 in
.45-70 Government 405gr Flat Point Penetrator
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 1650 1509 1380 1267 1172 1097 fps
Energy 2450 2047 1714 1445 1236 1082 ft/lb
Path -0.50 1.66 0.00 -6.23 -17.88 -35.85 in
Here are loads and performance data for Garrett ammunition's .45-70+P ammunition.
GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS
420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS
THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, RUGER, AND MARLIN RIFLES.
ENERGY: 3200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 51; MEPLAT: .330"; TRAJECTORY: +3" @ 100-YDS; ZERO @ 150-YDS; -7" @ 200-YDS
GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS
540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS
THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN MARLIN RIFLES.
ENERGY: 2880 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 55; MEPLAT: .360"; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -6.5" @ 150-YDS
If you still think the .45-70 is a wimp cartridge, check the photo at: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/8.asp
Be sure to notice the rifle used is a Kodiak Double Rifle in .45-70. Only two shots compared to a Marlin M-1895's five shots.
To paraphrase the Oldsmobile ads These Modern .45-70 loads are not your Great-Grandpappy's .45-70.
.416Rigby (One of my dream rifles BTW) said: "A .45/70 is best suited for what it was intended: either potting stationary buffaloes (not the most spooky of animals) at known distances and in the open, or as a short-range powerful carbine number"
I am sorry sir, but that is not what the .45-70 was designed to be. The .45-70 was designed as a small caliber (for the times), high velocity replacement for the .58 Cal Springfield Rifle-Muskets and the Allin conversions to .50-70 that were standard issue for the post-WBTS Army. It was designed to be and accepted for being an hard hitting, highly accurate long range military cartridge. The US National rifle Team won the World championship at the famous Creedmoor Match using Sharps-Borchardt Rifles chambered for the .45-70 Gov't cartridge, shooting was at 1000 yards.
Doc Hudson
P.S. In case no one has picked up on it, I am a big .45-70 fan. LMH
.45-70 Magnum Loads
Item 8A: 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) $41.50
Item 8B: 405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs. - Expander Load) $40.00
Item 8C: 350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3427 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) $40.00
NEW!
500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)
A non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the
deepest penetration on the largest game animals. $52.00
Item 8D:
Cor-Bon also offers modern .45-70 loads such as:
Everyone keeps asking for powerful loads for the .45-70 Govt. HERE THEY ARE! The 350gr Bonded bullet will slam through the toughest hide and bone that is likely to come down the trail after you. This load works great in the popular lever guns and will take on anything you encounter. Controlled expansion provides good penetration and a tissue tearing mushroom.
Added to the lineup is the 405gr Flat Point Penetrator. One look at this bullet and you know this is a load to be reckoned with. Nobody makes a bullet even close to this for power and penetration. The wide flat point, sharp crisp edges, and heavy full metal jacket combine to produce devastating knockdown energy. Like all the Cor-Bon Penetrator loads, no expansion is expected or needed. Bone crushing power will take on anything - anywhere.
.45-70 Government 350gr Bonded-Core Soft Flat Point
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 1800 1658 1526 1405 1296 1248 fps
Energy 2519 2137 1810 1534 1307 1125 ft/lb
Path -0.50 1.33 0.00 -5.07 -14.55 -29.55 in
.45-70 Government 405gr Flat Point Penetrator
Range 0 50 100 150 200 250 yards
Velocity 1650 1509 1380 1267 1172 1097 fps
Energy 2450 2047 1714 1445 1236 1082 ft/lb
Path -0.50 1.66 0.00 -6.23 -17.88 -35.85 in
Here are loads and performance data for Garrett ammunition's .45-70+P ammunition.
GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS
420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS
THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, RUGER, AND MARLIN RIFLES.
ENERGY: 3200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 51; MEPLAT: .330"; TRAJECTORY: +3" @ 100-YDS; ZERO @ 150-YDS; -7" @ 200-YDS
GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO
$50 / 20 CTGS
540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS
THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN MARLIN RIFLES.
ENERGY: 2880 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 55; MEPLAT: .360"; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -6.5" @ 150-YDS
If you still think the .45-70 is a wimp cartridge, check the photo at: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/8.asp
Be sure to notice the rifle used is a Kodiak Double Rifle in .45-70. Only two shots compared to a Marlin M-1895's five shots.
To paraphrase the Oldsmobile ads These Modern .45-70 loads are not your Great-Grandpappy's .45-70.
.416Rigby (One of my dream rifles BTW) said: "A .45/70 is best suited for what it was intended: either potting stationary buffaloes (not the most spooky of animals) at known distances and in the open, or as a short-range powerful carbine number"
I am sorry sir, but that is not what the .45-70 was designed to be. The .45-70 was designed as a small caliber (for the times), high velocity replacement for the .58 Cal Springfield Rifle-Muskets and the Allin conversions to .50-70 that were standard issue for the post-WBTS Army. It was designed to be and accepted for being an hard hitting, highly accurate long range military cartridge. The US National rifle Team won the World championship at the famous Creedmoor Match using Sharps-Borchardt Rifles chambered for the .45-70 Gov't cartridge, shooting was at 1000 yards.
Doc Hudson
P.S. In case no one has picked up on it, I am a big .45-70 fan. LMH
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Seems to me this whole thread illustrates a couple of things (aside from the issue of preconceived notions ).
First off is the change in performance of a cartridge with the improvements in technology. The .45-70 cartridge is some 128 years old? For the 1873 trapdoor Springfield? So we've gone from a blackpowder cartridge in a decidedly weak gun to smokeless powder in far stronger guns. For the casual plinker, the older ballistics are more pleasant, but for the serious user, the "new deal" is better. Another aspect of technological change is bullet performance.
Second is the issue of "How much is enough?" when talking about hunting dangerous game. This argument has gone on for over 60 years that I personally know of, which is why I tend to make little comment. I tend to believe that hunting and shooting skills are as important as gross power...Getting close; shot placement, and reasonable energy delivered by a well-designed bullet. I say "reasonable" in place of "adequate" since the main argument seems to be over this latter word.
Rich sez his Prof. Hunter approves of the modern .45-70; I'll accept that...Time, and Rich, will tell.
, Art
).First off is the change in performance of a cartridge with the improvements in technology. The .45-70 cartridge is some 128 years old? For the 1873 trapdoor Springfield? So we've gone from a blackpowder cartridge in a decidedly weak gun to smokeless powder in far stronger guns. For the casual plinker, the older ballistics are more pleasant, but for the serious user, the "new deal" is better. Another aspect of technological change is bullet performance.
Second is the issue of "How much is enough?" when talking about hunting dangerous game. This argument has gone on for over 60 years that I personally know of, which is why I tend to make little comment. I tend to believe that hunting and shooting skills are as important as gross power...Getting close; shot placement, and reasonable energy delivered by a well-designed bullet. I say "reasonable" in place of "adequate" since the main argument seems to be over this latter word.
Rich sez his Prof. Hunter approves of the modern .45-70; I'll accept that...Time, and Rich, will tell.
, ArtDoc Hudson: The original poster was asking whether or not the .45/70 will meet the LEGAL standards set by some African countries for hunting dangerous game.
The ballistics you posted of today's hot .45/70 loadings are impressive, but in fact, they show that the .45/70 does NOT meet the legal standards in some countries which require a .375 H&H level of kinetic energy.
The ballistics you posted of today's hot .45/70 loadings are impressive, but in fact, they show that the .45/70 does NOT meet the legal standards in some countries which require a .375 H&H level of kinetic energy.
Thanks HankB for steering back to my original question. I was not trying to stir a debate between calibers, but was simply trying to ascertain the legality of hunting with a .45-70 if a .375 H&H is listed as the minimum legal caliber. I take it the answer is "no," or an "iffy maybe" at best. I'd rather not take the chance.
Art,
I, as somewhat of a rifleman and getting crustier in my definitely strong opinions, plead guilty to your charge of having some pre-conceived notions. I prefer to call them "natural preferences", but that's just me!
However, some facts speak to me even above the static of my own likes and dislikes. I may be wrong, but I still consider the .375s and .416s superior to any of the loads mentioned.
Let me explain you (all of you) why. I know that we are dissecting gnats here, but this is what makes being a rifle-nut so much fun.
Let's start with "Item 8A: 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)". OK, no one would deny it is a VERY good load. But let me ask you the following questions:
1. How effective will it be at 200 yards?
2. What is the trajectory of such a slow load?
3. Yes, of course it will penetrate any animal given the proper conditions. But let's consider the numbers: sectional density is .293 versus .305 and .338 in case of the .375 and the .416 respectively. Energy level is only barely over 3,000ft/lbs against over 4,000ft/lbs for the .375 and over 5,000 for the .416. I still prefer the .375 and .416.
Then, there is the 500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.). If the .458 Winchester, in factory form, has been poo-pooh'd as a reliable dangerous game round (by many experienced hunters), how is a load which is 400fps slower in any way to be considered "good"? Such a load would not be something I would choose for either dangerous game (energy way too low @ 2931ft/lbs) or for plains game (way too slow - curved trajectory).
I'm sorry if I appear hard-headed, but in spite of the excellent ballistics to which Mr. Garrett and his ilk have undoubtedly elevated the 45/70, I would still pass on the old Gov't Workhorse in favor of the more specialized (and in my mind better suited) .375 and .416.
There are too many variables in Africa that may not be true in our own backyard: ranges are more unknown (there is more variety between tangled bush and open plains there than here) and game is more varied (on the same hunt one is more likely to run into and be legally able to collect more diverse species than anywhere else on earth). Besides, there are the "plug uglies": in front of a trophy-class cape buffalo standing at 175 yards, for example, between a .416 (of any kind) or a 45/70 (of any kind) I would opt for the former. Always.
Prejudiced? Perhaps. But I think I can back up what I say.
I, as somewhat of a rifleman and getting crustier in my definitely strong opinions, plead guilty to your charge of having some pre-conceived notions. I prefer to call them "natural preferences", but that's just me!
However, some facts speak to me even above the static of my own likes and dislikes. I may be wrong, but I still consider the .375s and .416s superior to any of the loads mentioned.
Let me explain you (all of you) why. I know that we are dissecting gnats here, but this is what makes being a rifle-nut so much fun.
Let's start with "Item 8A: 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)". OK, no one would deny it is a VERY good load. But let me ask you the following questions:
1. How effective will it be at 200 yards?
2. What is the trajectory of such a slow load?
3. Yes, of course it will penetrate any animal given the proper conditions. But let's consider the numbers: sectional density is .293 versus .305 and .338 in case of the .375 and the .416 respectively. Energy level is only barely over 3,000ft/lbs against over 4,000ft/lbs for the .375 and over 5,000 for the .416. I still prefer the .375 and .416.
Then, there is the 500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.). If the .458 Winchester, in factory form, has been poo-pooh'd as a reliable dangerous game round (by many experienced hunters), how is a load which is 400fps slower in any way to be considered "good"? Such a load would not be something I would choose for either dangerous game (energy way too low @ 2931ft/lbs) or for plains game (way too slow - curved trajectory).
I'm sorry if I appear hard-headed, but in spite of the excellent ballistics to which Mr. Garrett and his ilk have undoubtedly elevated the 45/70, I would still pass on the old Gov't Workhorse in favor of the more specialized (and in my mind better suited) .375 and .416.
There are too many variables in Africa that may not be true in our own backyard: ranges are more unknown (there is more variety between tangled bush and open plains there than here) and game is more varied (on the same hunt one is more likely to run into and be legally able to collect more diverse species than anywhere else on earth). Besides, there are the "plug uglies": in front of a trophy-class cape buffalo standing at 175 yards, for example, between a .416 (of any kind) or a 45/70 (of any kind) I would opt for the former. Always.
Prejudiced? Perhaps. But I think I can back up what I say.
J
Jeff, CA
Guest
I'm already looking forward to hearing how Rich fares with the .45-70. I'm optimistic.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
416Rigby, if I wuz gonna be hard-headed enough to use the .45-70 on a buffalo, I'd want my backup to have AT LEAST your Rigby. Maybe even a .460 Weatherby. I've had a 67-year love affair with my precious bod, and I'm too old for a new partner!
I guess another way to look at it is that "more than enough" gun is insurance against Mr. Murphy, as far as such is possible. Which is somewhat tangential to my earlier question about improvement on full-body penetration...
And that gets us to our usual comments about shot placement: When the shot is "perfect", it all seems very, very easy--even with a marginal cartridge of whatever sort. With certain game animals, a less-than-perfect shot can lead to all manner of excitement, adrenalin rush, and possibly scars for the survivors or coffins for the losers...
Oh, well. Adrenalin: I had lousy brakes on my old Formula A car, which made portions of the old Road Atlanta race course somewhat interesting. Going into the bridge turn at 195 was more than a little bit "iffy", since I had to pump two or three times before anything happened. (And I kept doing it, which says something about my sanity.)
What the heck. Rich's plane is laid up, so he's hurtin' for excitement...
, Art
I guess another way to look at it is that "more than enough" gun is insurance against Mr. Murphy, as far as such is possible. Which is somewhat tangential to my earlier question about improvement on full-body penetration...
And that gets us to our usual comments about shot placement: When the shot is "perfect", it all seems very, very easy--even with a marginal cartridge of whatever sort. With certain game animals, a less-than-perfect shot can lead to all manner of excitement, adrenalin rush, and possibly scars for the survivors or coffins for the losers...
Oh, well. Adrenalin: I had lousy brakes on my old Formula A car, which made portions of the old Road Atlanta race course somewhat interesting. Going into the bridge turn at 195 was more than a little bit "iffy", since I had to pump two or three times before anything happened. (And I kept doing it, which says something about my sanity.)
What the heck. Rich's plane is laid up, so he's hurtin' for excitement...
, ArtGood luck, Rich!
Please bring back some scintillating stories so that I'll have an excuse to buy another rifle....
.....A .45/70, perhaps?????
Kill us all a good 'un!!!!
Art:
I have heard too much impressive stuff about you (from someone who knows you in person!) to argue with such an experienced, knowledgeable gentleman such as yourself. Give this young buck some time to come around....
Thanks for the good comments, and stand up for "your" caliber!!!!
Tom ".416 Rigby" Leoni
Please bring back some scintillating stories so that I'll have an excuse to buy another rifle....
.....A .45/70, perhaps?????
Kill us all a good 'un!!!!
Art:
I have heard too much impressive stuff about you (from someone who knows you in person!) to argue with such an experienced, knowledgeable gentleman such as yourself. Give this young buck some time to come around....
Thanks for the good comments, and stand up for "your" caliber!!!!
Tom ".416 Rigby" Leoni
I can only stand back and bask in all of the common sense being spewn here....
Energy is energy and the 45/70, no matter how it is loaded, does not compare favorably with the .458 win mag or most other big bore, big game cartridges of modern design.
Heck, the .458 X 2" (a trimmed down wildcat based on the .458 win mag) can do as well or better, and it can be crammed into a lever gun with reasonable ease if the shooter insists on that. Higher pressures, MV and sure 'nuf, you can use all them same flat nosed cast lead bullets if you are feeling retro.
There is a strong possibility that many other rounds fired from antique weapons could penetrate as well as the "hot" 45/70, assuming that one could lift the Buffalo's tail, get the muzzle just so, and....
Whether or not a 45/70 will run end to end through a Buf means nothing to me. I have a 30-06 that can do the same thing with AP. It will also penetrate 1" steel plate at 300 yards, which the 45/70 can not do regardless of load.
How much energy the round dumps on the way through is the important thing, and starting with only 3500 pounds out the gate is asking for trouble.
The .505 Burns, for example, generates well over 6000 FP with 500 grain bullets. That is a Buffalo cartridge.
Properly configured bolt guns with controlled feed and cone breeches can and will feed flat nosed bullets, despite claims to the contrary that I have read of late. (Gawd, I am really biting my tongue here...)
Certain African hunters were/are known to seat bullets in their big bore weapons backwards, so as to reduce overpenetration and deliver more energy into large thin skinned game. You can't get a flatter nose than that.
I have tried this, and it works.
Although the new fangled "hot" loads for the 45/70 have received accolades from many enthusiasts of the old cartridge, it will never be a replacement for big bore cartridges of modern design, fired from modern weapons.
The 45/70 was declared obsolete for a reason.
If you want to burn a Buf with one, may God bless you.
They say the good Lord looks after babes and fools,
reason enough for him to have pretty much ignored me all of these years.
Energy is energy and the 45/70, no matter how it is loaded, does not compare favorably with the .458 win mag or most other big bore, big game cartridges of modern design.
Heck, the .458 X 2" (a trimmed down wildcat based on the .458 win mag) can do as well or better, and it can be crammed into a lever gun with reasonable ease if the shooter insists on that. Higher pressures, MV and sure 'nuf, you can use all them same flat nosed cast lead bullets if you are feeling retro.
There is a strong possibility that many other rounds fired from antique weapons could penetrate as well as the "hot" 45/70, assuming that one could lift the Buffalo's tail, get the muzzle just so, and....
Whether or not a 45/70 will run end to end through a Buf means nothing to me. I have a 30-06 that can do the same thing with AP. It will also penetrate 1" steel plate at 300 yards, which the 45/70 can not do regardless of load.
How much energy the round dumps on the way through is the important thing, and starting with only 3500 pounds out the gate is asking for trouble.
The .505 Burns, for example, generates well over 6000 FP with 500 grain bullets. That is a Buffalo cartridge.
Properly configured bolt guns with controlled feed and cone breeches can and will feed flat nosed bullets, despite claims to the contrary that I have read of late. (Gawd, I am really biting my tongue here...)
Certain African hunters were/are known to seat bullets in their big bore weapons backwards, so as to reduce overpenetration and deliver more energy into large thin skinned game. You can't get a flatter nose than that.
I have tried this, and it works.
Although the new fangled "hot" loads for the 45/70 have received accolades from many enthusiasts of the old cartridge, it will never be a replacement for big bore cartridges of modern design, fired from modern weapons.
The 45/70 was declared obsolete for a reason.
If you want to burn a Buf with one, may God bless you.
They say the good Lord looks after babes and fools,
reason enough for him to have pretty much ignored me all of these years.
J
Jeff, CA
Guest
This from the wise man who went after a black bear with a .357? Please.