Damn again: Savannah,GA High School shooting

David I could not agree with you more on the advertising/social situation thingie. Mike H. I also agree with you on it being a disgrace to our society that probably the wealthiest vountry on the planet cant seem to raise its kids properly. The thought of just doing something is however about as ridiculous as the concept of AlGore having invented the internet. The true thought must be we must do something that can help the situation. Gun control is absolutely not the issue. Just as the war on drugs is not the answer to drug addiction and just as prohibition was not the answer to alcohol addiction. Just as David stated the problem lies in the fact that not a sole is taking care of and raising our children. Parents are out busting their buts making ends meet and the consequence is that the kids get left out. The choice between paying the mortgage and playing catch is what life has come down to. I have a good job that pays well, my wife is a teacher and we still have to have a third job to be able to make ends meet. Heck the way I figure it I wont be able to begin contributing to my 401K plan for another year till I get some debt paid off. And I am to consider my self lucky. Our leadership has absolutely no interest insolving the problems we are faced with today, weather it is violence, racism or anyhting for that matter. The simple fact is if they actually did their jobs they would be unemployed soon. And no power hungry, corrupt, bootlicking ^%^&&^$^** is willing to do that. Can you imagine Komrade Klingon actually having to earn a living. How about Teddy Kennedy, what would he do? Drive in a destruction derby??? All the problems we face today as a society benefits government. Our dumbed down education system has tought our children to look to the government solutions and not to themselves which is exactly what these morons want. [rant mode somewhat off]

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If stupidity hurt, liberals would be walking around in agony.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is just too much! We have lived in a society where kids and guns coexisted for as long as we have had a country. Is it mass insanity? Has some evil (other than the current administration) taken over? Or is it truely a planned, orchestrated and well executed series of events leading up to the next election?[/quote]

Crime is way down. News coverage is way up. The fact that they're reporting every single shooting makes it seem like there's a lot of shootings, but there isn't.

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Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

[This message has been edited by Gorthaur (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
Don't even get me started on the phony "war on drugs", which criminalizes a medical problem to justify huge police budgets, bite after bite out of our rights, and the FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) that politicians can exploit. Remember prohibition? The only constitutional amendment ever repealed? Prohibition gave us the Mafia and the "war on drugs" has given us the "gangsta" culture.

Ya know, if they'd just make me King I'd straighten this whole country out.

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Dave
Deep in the Florida Swamps
 
I agree with practically everything that's been said here, apart from Dave wanting to be King, the last thing we need is a monarch, how about President instead Dave ?

Somehow however, this all seems like a bunch of old guys standing on the deck of the rapidly sinking Titanic saying that ships never hit icebergs when they were kids.

Very strict gun control may not be THE solution, but unfortunately it is A solution, and if you are a legislator who wants to stop kids dying it is the only realistic option. Before anyone starts getting too excited, don't look upon the above as my wish for how things should be, rather, look upon it as my opinion as to how things must inevitably be when an issue gets the liberal media behind it. Imagine a situation where thousands of children were being killed by an infection carried exclusively by Raccoons, Varminters and their .220 Swifts would come to the rescue, we wouldn't hesitate and would regard ourselves as heroes, the raccoons would be removed because they posed a threat to our kids, but somewhere you can bet there would be a National Raccoon Preservation Society determined to hinder the process, claiming that the problem wasn't the Raccoons but mans encroachment on their habitat, or that if children maintained adequate hygiene standards they would not become infected
with the disease, or that there was no evidence to prove that a mass culling programme would work. The only way I can see beyond my love of shooting is to turn the argument around like that.

If anyone has any better ideas on how to prevent children from getting shot without any further restriction on our shooting rights, believe me, I want to hear them.

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A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H
 
"Existing, relevant federal laws:
* A person must be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun or handgun ammunition, and 18 years of age to buy a rifle or shotgun or ammunition, from a retail firearm dealer. (GCA, 1968)
* Regardless of age it is illegal to possess a firearm on or within 1,000 feet of school property, with limited exceptions. (Gun-Free School Zones Act, 1996).

And, in Georgia - it is unlawful for any person to sell or furnish a handgun to a person under 21 years of age.

So, Daisy, you're right. Why don't we enforce the laws we have?"

A bit late into the fray, but what the heck. Quite frankly, I don't want any of these laws enforced any more than I want them on the books.

Why should a responsible 19 year old be denied his/her right to self defense because of some stupid age cut-off and that SOME of the same age group commit a criminal act with a handgun?

We could surely turn this whole gun debate off by simply stating that "since gun crimes are commited by some persons within this (you name it) age group, that age group may not possess firearms."

"It will be illegal for any person of any specific age group to possess a firearm if any other person of that age group has ever committed crimes using a firearm."

Sounds stupid just typing it.

Any blanket approach will never cover the bases and save us all.

I was, and know of very many "under 21" persons who I would trust with a firearm (handguns, too), walking behind me any time.

That they would be denied their (call it) ability (even strip rights out of it) to possess a handgun/firearm, to enjoy the same "smell of the smoke" as do we "responsible" adults, is an insult to them and we are deluding ourselves.

The problem isn't "under 21," it isn't a conspiracy, it isn't the parents (although I could argue both sides of that argument). It is a combination of various societal ills.

All said and in the end, the problem is some butthead with a gun that shoots someone else unjustifiably.
 
You know, I think you have a point, maybe if that 6 year old girl that was killed with a .32 ACP through the neck last week had her own pistol to defend herself with, she'd be alive right now.

And maybe when I pack my 12 year old off to high school I should make sure she has a fully loaded Ithaca pump in her back pack in case she comes up against one of those awkward senior cheerleaders armed with a .45. In fact, the more I think about it, all kids should be armed so that they can protect themselves, forget the age limits. They're all more than sufficiently responsible and mature so there is bound to be a big reduction in child shooting fatalities, and if there was ever a repeat of the "Littleton massacre" sorry, "minor firearms incident" every pupil would be adequately armed in order to deal effectively and decisively with the perpetrators.

Thanks for setting me straight, I never realised that kids with guns solve problems not create them.

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A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H
 
Mike H, who's claiming that kids with guns "solve" problems? Only person I can see talking about that is you.

Besides, an Ithaca is considerably harder for a little kid to handle than, say, a Ruger 10/22. ;)

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"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mike H said:
"If anyone has any better ideas on how to prevent children from getting shot without any further restriction on our shooting rights, believe me, I want to hear them."[/quote]


Education.

Education, education, education, education.

ED. U. CAY. SHUN.

Why, oh WHY are the anti's so very afraid of teaching our children about gun safety? They do their damndest to prove that guns fall into the hands of practically all children. They point out the numbers of guns in our society. Fact is, you grow up in the U.S., you're going to see guns.

So what in the WORLD possesses the antis to oppose us teaching The Four Rules of Gun Safety to all children in EVERY single semester of their schooling, K-12? Add the 5th Rule, for Children: Never, EVER touch a gun without a qualified adult around. If you find a gun-- leave it, and tell an adult, IMMEDIATELY!

We have drivers' education in high school, but no schools that I know of have the mandatory curriculum of gun safety. This can be taught from a completely objective view, without promoting shooting among children nor claiming that guns are the cause of all evil.

My suspicion is that the anti's are terrified of the concept of teaching children that they are responsible for their own actions, and that a firearm can actually be handled safely. Yes, according to "Child Addendum Rule 5," children shouldn't handle guns without a qualified adult around, but when they do handle guns, as kids and as adults, they need to know how not to kill themselves nor loved ones accidentally. This is a life lesson, that must be taught, learned by rote, recited monthly, and tested for grade.

Education, education, education, ed-u-freakin'-cation!!!


Education, education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education, education,education, education!

BTW, Mike? I live in Texas, far away from your daughter. Save her now. Send your guns to me. After all, if others can't be trusted with them.... (oh, that's right; others are "people." You're a "person.")

While I agree that the number of children killed by accidental shootings is terrible, I, for one, am willing to explore other options that don't compromise my rights before I advocate gun control. I've got to wonder, what others of my rights are you willing to give away? (E.G.: "While I am, personally, an advocate of free speech, I have to admit that the stuff said on the Internet has been getting out of hand, and feel that we should have appropriate Government censors monitoring our posts. For the children...")

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited March 16, 2000).]
 
The simple fact is that more of OUR kids get killed by handguns either in school,
out in the streets or playing with Grandpas new P239 while the folks are having
coffee on the porch than any other "civilised" nation, by a factor of something like 40 or 50 times.


Mike, that is fortunately, not the case. Now if you compare TOTAL deaths, perhaps we do have more than some smaller countries,but if you compare per capita, that's untrue. If fact, if you include suicides as violent crime, Japan is close to the US in "violent deaths" per 100,000.

1990 rates per 100k population from WHO Statistical Yearbook
homicide suicide
US 10.1 12.6
Japan 0.6 16.4

Here is a quote from a blatantly anti-gun site and propaganda machine, the VPC:

For all our fear and fascination with guns and murder, the fact remains that most gun deaths in America are not the result of murder...but suicide...

From the Communist News Network, no less:
Crime at lowest point in 25 years, feds say
December 27, 1998
Web posted at: 5:54 p.m. EST (2254 GMT)

...FBI statistics indicate the
murder rate has decreased 8 percent in
1997. The 18,210 murders recorded
nationally marked a 28 percent drop from
the number five years earlier.

I find ( http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/archive/international/msg00013.html ) that less than half of US murders are committed with guns! What about the other 51.1%?

Canada, our much-touted Socialist neighbor to the north, has much less homicides per capita, but the US has less than 5x as many murders, which is a very far crime from forty times as many. You seem to have fallen prey to the hype. Yes, any murder is too many, but attempting to take away the illegally owned guns by restricting those who actually care to follow the law is ludicrous, wouldn't you agree?

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=143489&a=1050557&p=17408749&Sequence=0
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Scott:
Want to know the REAL cause of the problem?
7. Kids figure that since they are entitled to stuff, they're entitled to everything else, including respect they have not earned, love they have not won, and liberties that they cannot exercise responsibly.
9. Those kids eventually have kids of their own. Since they never learned love, ethics or responsibility, they can't pass them on to the kids. Situation goes steadily down hill.

Bottom line: The ONLY thing that will reverse the deterioration of society is responsible, competent parenting. Fathers and mothers must make it their #1 priority to raise up children who know right from wrong and take responsibility for their actions. No laws can make this happen, so all attempts to fix things with laws are just band-aids on a sucking chest wound.

[/quote]

Go David Scott! The points you made above really stick in my mind as huge problems.
We already have too many generations of kids raising kids, most often in a single parent situation, where the kid doing the raising does not have a clue or just doesn't care.
As for the yups or whatever they are called today you need to include Easy Credit in your headline. To me, this should go above advertising. Whatever happend to the usery laws anyway?
Hank
 
Coinneach

The response prior to mine had indicated that age limits for ownership of firearms were a nonsense - quote, "I don't want any of these laws enforced", am I to assume that you support this view ? Since the law in question specifically states that you must be 21 to purchase a firearm or ammunition, I reasonably assumed that the author intends to convey his belief that kids with guns don't create problems. Your reference to me saying that kids with guns can solve problems was intended on my part as an ironic follow on, but I hope you knew that.

Long Path

If you want to explore this topic in a civil manner I'm happy to oblige, but I believe that "flaming" and personal jibes of any type are prohibited by the forum rules, as a Moderator I expect you already know this. By way of a reply however, yes, I am a "person" and not "people" as is anyone allowed to think and act as an individual and not as part of a mob, such as those opposed to shooting of any type who are being whipped up by media hysteria. It is these people that I refer to in my signature, not some supposed superiority on my part or that of my little girl.

I did intend to carry on and tackle some of the statistics that had been quoted above with some of my own, such as the fact that a carefully disguised survey amongst our friends revealed that between 6 of us from different parts of the US, we collectively knew of 14 children whom we went to school with (ages 6 to 18)who had been killed by firearm negligence either on their part or someone elses. I find it hard to believe that individuals from other westernised nations could match such impressive statistics, my own personal experience is that many other people I know can equal or better these figures, heck, maybe it's just Pennsylvania but I doubt it. I had originally intended to go on, but all to no end I suspect, I had hoped that the subject of children and guns would bring out some sense of perspective in people, but I know now that I was wrong.

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A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H
 
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