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Dallas PD pulls the P320 from their Approved List.
- Thread starter JohnKSa
- Start date
Not to SIG. If they offered to fix the problem and you decided you would rather have a non-drop safe pistol than have it fixed for free, at that point, I would think that any future results of that decision would be your responsibility.So, I have a P320 but I don't want to go for the voluntary upgrade. Do you see any liability to SIG? Myself?
There is no doubt in my mind the SIG was fully aware of the drop-fire incident that resulted in serious injury to the Stamford CT police officer who has filed the multi-million dollar law suit against SIG. That event occurred way back in January.The thing that irks me about that is here in Texas, the lawyer would have to make a demand on SIG before he could sue under a tort claim (basically, he'd have to give SIG a chance to make it right before filing a lawsuit). I don't know Connecticut law; but on the same day that lawsuit got filed, SIG issued a press release stating there "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market." So, to me, it seems highly probable SIG received a demand letter advising them of the officer's drop-related injury and his belief it was due to a defect in the P320 before that press release or DPD memo came out.
So, SIG was either 1) completely unaware of a lawsuit being filed that same day; 2) aware of the lawsuit but weasel-worded the "U.S. commercial market" aspect; or 3) flat out lied.
An article in the Connecticut Law Tribune quoted counsel for the plaintiff as saying there had been discussions with SIG about a settlement before suit was filed, but they had not resulted in a resolution.
The article also said that the Stamford CT police department pulled the P320 from the duty roster after the incident. I do not find it believable that a department taking this action after one of their officers had suffered serious injury from a drop-fire incident would not have had some pretty immediate discussion with SIG.
On another forum, an individual posted that he had a discussion with a person who was present at the time of that drop-fire incident. That party told him the pistol had been sent to SIG the next day. SIG examined it and found "nothing wrong". Now that last is clearly a "I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy" type of story, but common sense dictates that is exactly what would have been done in such a situation.
What SIG did with this information is anybody's guess.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Apparently they made a determination that sales to police departments are not part of the "commercial market."pblanc said:What SIG did with this information is anybody's guess.
Police sales are clearly not military, so if they're not military and they're not comercial ... what are they?
Brownstone322
New member
I was thinking precisely the same thing. I've never dropped a firearm, but I have certainly dropped (or knocked over) other items I never ended to upend, like a coffee cup, dishes or a wine glass. Stuff happens.This is still literally a matter of life and death, even for you. If the person shooting next to you at the range drops their firearm and it discharges with the muzzle pointing at you, all the training you received at the Academy won't help you a bit. This is a very important point.
More to the point, in the range we have everything from experts to beginners, and it stands to reason that beginners might need time to get comfortable. Handling a live firearm for the first few times isn't necessarily an easy thing to get used to, especially with a .357 going off in the lane to one side and an AR hammering away on the other. I've never actually asked a range officer if he's seen firearms get dropped (I will ask next time), but I suspect it happens occasionally, even among experienced shooters.
So yeah, drop safety is exceedingly important, no matter how highly one regards one's own infallibility.
Here is some additional info.
http://videos.recoilweb.com/channel/random?video=KQjb1zpB1e4K-rweb-p320pr-081117
http://videos.recoilweb.com/channel/random?video=KQjb1zpB1e4K-rweb-p320pr-081117
JJNA said:I wonder how the Sig P250 would do in the same 30 degree test.
No problem! The two guns are radically different in their operation.
P320 = very short trigger stroke that nearly immediately disengages the striker block and a substantially fully-cocked striker that can be bounced out of sear engagement.
P250 = a very long trigger stroke that disengages the firing pin block at the end of its movement, a hammer that is fully at rest until pulled through its entire arc of movement by the trigger, and a firing pin that is fully at rest until struck by the hammer; the hammer is also exposed from the back of the slide as it is being cocked.
seeker_two
New member
I wonder how the Sig P250 would do in the same 30 degree test.
Also, does anyone know whether the upgrade modifies the grip module?
Well....the 250 will definitely fire when the firing pin is struck by the hammer.....No problem! The two guns are radically different in their operation.
P320 = very short trigger stroke that nearly immediately disengages the striker block and a substantially fully-cocked striker that can be bounced out of sear engagement.
P250 = a very long trigger stroke that disengages the firing pin block at the end of its movement, a hammer that is fully at rest until pulled through its entire arc of movement by the trigger, and a firing pin that is fully at rest until struck by the hammer; the hammer is also exposed from the back of the slide as it is being cocked.
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seeker two said:Well....the 250 will definitely fire when the firing pin is struck by the hammer.....
Now you only need to explain how it could be possible for the hammer to be cocked far enough to strike the firing pin with adequate force, with the firing pin block disengaged, as the result of a drop.
Independent George
New member
The 250 never sold well because it's a DAO pistol in a market that already views even DA/SA as obsolete. Which is a shame, because that was an outstanding DA trigger, but I understand it completely; I wouldn't have wanted it as a duty gun, either.
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I don't know why gun companies can't make a production DA/SA pistol with a DA pull like a Sig P250. I have the P250 in several calibers and configurations, including 22LR and 380ACP, and it's just the best production semi-auto with DAO trigger bar none. The trigger is easy to reach, smooth, relatively light, consistent, and breaks well. I always preferred the P250 to the P320 for any purpose other than just shooting at the range.
In any case, I hope the Sig P320 upgrade doesn't require any grip module modification, as I have many of them for both the P320 and the P250. I keep reading that the frame will be modified - I hope that's just the serialized fire control part.
In any case, I hope the Sig P320 upgrade doesn't require any grip module modification, as I have many of them for both the P320 and the P250. I keep reading that the frame will be modified - I hope that's just the serialized fire control part.
I had a similar impression of the P250 trigger and was always surprised at how many people seemed to think the trigger was terrible.I have the P250 in several calibers and configurations, including 22LR and 380ACP, and it's just the best production semi-auto with DAO trigger bar none.
carguychris
New member
IMHO it's great for what it is... a simulation of a well-broken-in DA revolver trigger. I like it better than the DA stage in almost every DA/SA auto pistol I've tried, except perhaps the upper-end EAA/Tanfo Witness pistols and the Wilson Combat versions of the Beretta 92FS.JohnKSa said:I... was always surprised at how many people seemed to think the [P250] trigger was terrible.
The problem is that this simply wasn't what most folks in the auto pistol market were expecting. SIG had the bad fortune to release an excellent long-stroke DAO system at a time when the market was moving away from this type of trigger—e.g. the S&W metal-frame DAO line is extinct, the Beretta 92D is moribund, and SIG themselves no longer seem to be pushing their DAK system.
Independent George
New member
It's because most people hardly shoot DA anymore, or even know how; the long trigger pull is seen as a defect instead of a deliberate design decision.I had a similar impression of the P250 trigger and was always surprised at how many people seemed to think the trigger was terrible.
Try bringing up a Kahr, and just count how often people talk about the 'terrible' trigger. I even remember one YouTube reviewer talking about how impossible it was to find the break to stage the trigger on.
Granted, it is harder to shoot DA accurately, and requires a LOT of practice. I still like having it as a final, redundant safety system.
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The 250 never sold well because it's a DAO pistol in a market that already views even DA/SA as obsolete. Which is a shame, because that was an outstanding DA trigger, but I understand it completely; I wouldn't have wanted it as a duty gun, either.
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They did not sell well because they beta tested them on paying consumers. There were IIRC 4-5 revision of the guns. The initial release had reliability problems. The caliber changes were vaporware for years. They failed the ATF pistol trials. The list goes on and on. It really should not be a surprise there are issues with the P320 which was built off the P250 platform.
As for the trigger it is smooth but too long. The trigger is also different between different versions of the P250. Some are better than others. They also initally sold for way too much money and LEO and were not going to switch from Glocks. Cost was a huge factor. People only bought them once they became $300 NIB guns.
Personally I waited a long time to get a P320 hoping that the bugs would be worked out before I got one. Some of them were some of them clearly were not. Sig has not had a clean rollout of a new product in a long time.
Look at the 556, P238, Sig P250, MPX etc... All of them had had issues when released.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Don't forget their entry into the 1911 market. SIG even managed to muck up a 100-year old design. They blamed the problems with the first generation on Caspian, who supplied the frames and slides. Curiously, Caspian subsequently sold the unused remainder of those slides and frames as kits, and I haven't heard of a single person who built a 1911 on those kits who had a problem.WVsig said:Sig has not had a clean rollout of a new product in a long time.
Look at the 556, P238, Sig P250, MPX etc... All of them had had issues when released.
Then, after a complete shut-down of several months, they brought out the second generation ... and still had problems. I think SIG 1911s generally function now, but are they on the third or fourth generation?
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Buddy of mine bought a SIG 1911 a couple years ago. It wouldn't reliably feed ball ammo. I tried to get him to send it in, but I don't think he ever did.
Some of the irony here is that all things considered, the P320 was one of the more successful designs on release for SIG in terms of amount of problems. And yet here we are.
Some of the irony here is that all things considered, the P320 was one of the more successful designs on release for SIG in terms of amount of problems. And yet here we are.