DA/SA Decocking

Wow Glenn. I'm not sure I see how my question prompted an insulting tone, unless my purchase of a CZ equates to either hating Glocks or fearing them. Unless I misread your meaning.

I've taken nearly 40 hours of training since I started shooting 18 months ago and put in plenty of practice. Most has been with an XD. I shoot a Walther PPQ and have done some local competition with it. I can assure you I have no fear or hatred of striker guns. I don't especially like Glock, but only because they don't really seem to fit my hands well. I got the CZ because it fits better than any gun I've used before. Even with the unfamiliar trigger, I it just intuitively seems to fit me better than any other. I was 99% sold on the new M2.0 Compact when I tried this. I'm pretty sure I don't have to be a doofus to want to learn a DA trigger.

Anyways, I certainly didn't come in here insulting Glock or anyone else. Sorry if you took it that way somehow.
 
One piece of advice I read said to focus on mastering the reset, because that is the same every time. Regardless of the preceding trigger pull, it will reset to the same place. That seems to make sense to me.
 
OhioGuy said:
I've never heard this covered in any training class. The DA/SA people seem to know what they're doing already and the instructors assume nobody else has one. One guy did ask an instructor about this when I first got started shooting, and his answer was "sell it and buy a Glock." :rolleyes:
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To be honest most "instructors" are glockers. It's what they think they understand. "I just point it and it shoots itself, and never fails, and you can break it down if both arms have been chopped off. Plus you can find magazines in vending machines, and it doesn't have a confusing safety."
 
Nathan said:
Dry firing is important, but honestly with DA/SA, the transition is the issue....not sure how to dry fire that? Ideas?
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I don't see how that is possible to do other than live fire practice. But IMO it is still very important to master DA only accuracy first.
 
ritepath said:
To be honest most "instructors" are glockers. It's what they think they understand. "I just point it and it shoots itself, and never fails, and you can break it down if both arms have been chopped off. Plus you can find magazines in vending machines, and it doesn't have a confusing safety."
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Actually, all those things are pretty much true :) I have never tried field stripping one with my teeth, but it might be doable.

I still like my new CZ better though!

I'm not much of a fan of thumb actuated safeties, although admittedly I have rarely shot with them and have never tried to master the drawing of one.

I do know that after all the negative press given to DA/SA guns I was hesitant to even try this one. After keeping everything inside a 4" target at 15 yards I kinda said "oh, so that was it?" and it didn't seem terribly complicated. I had a Bodyguard.380 for a while, whose trigger was longer and heavier than this, on a gun the size of a cellphone. I got pretty accurate with that one, and that's probably why this DA trigger doesn't seem overly challenging.
 
The DA/SA people seem to know what they're doing already and the instructors assume nobody else has one. One guy did ask an instructor about this when I first got started shooting, and his answer was "sell it and buy a Glock."
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Just to set the record straight.

I'll summarize that a competent shooter should be able to get quality hits with a striker (Glock or not), 1911, TDA or revolver. The grip angle is trivial variance but often touted on the Internet. The decocker question between targets is a range question for a nondynamic situation and the answer should be obvious. My El Presidente example answered the question.
 
Dry firing is important, but honestly with DA/SA, the transition is the issue....not sure how to dry fire that? Ideas?
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My idea is stop telling people who can do something that they can't learn it how they learned it;)
 
Nathan said:
Dry firing is important, but honestly with DA/SA, the transition is the issue....not sure how to dry fire that? Ideas?
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Well, you really can't in a realistic fashion. But you can't really practice quick double taps in dry fire with a striker-fired or SAO pistol either.

Closest you can come is to dry fire in DA and cycle the slide sufficiently to recock the hammer, or just recock the hammer, while holding the trigger pressed back. If you use a snap cap and cycle the slide, you have to be careful not to eject the snap cap. Doing this at least allows you to practice the trigger reset to SA mode and the SA trigger press.
 
BA/UU/R

BUY AMMO, USE UP, REPEAT

Like Glenn said if you can fundamentally shoot you can fundamentally shoot anything. Every platform has its pros and cons and every platform has its personal likes and dislikes.

I like DA/SA for “reasons”. But can shoot pretty much anything passably. Except a Beretta tomcat but I digress.

At any rate I find dry fire in double action to work really well for getting used to the pull as well as breaking in the trigger. You can always manually cock the hammer if you want to go double single. Also don’t stage, pull straight through.

When I shoot first round out of every mag is DA. Sometimes more but never less. I decock on holster. When I shoot revolvers 90+% of the time I shoot DA.

Now mind you I am just a low speed high drag hobbiest with no door kicking fantasies so there is that. I am just lucky enough to have owned and shot damn near everything.

One thing that I have found to help me greatly is the following laser range I setup. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588747
 
Here is a video that IMO has some great tips on learning DA and DA to SA transition. It points out to not get too concerned about the reset as many seem to "pin" the trigger and then slowly release to reset which will really slow down shooting when speed is needed but to rather release trigger after firing to a point past the reset while keeping finger on the trigger to get ready for next shot when the sights align back on target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU4v5i5c42k
 
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Stop making dry fire harder than it needs to be, get a cheap laser and learn to stroke thru the DA pull rapidly and repeatedly. Then the transition to the easier SA pull won't take much.
 
Do we need another "I hate Glock" set of posts or "Buy a Glock" set of posts?
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I'm really not reading this thread as meant in that way, and I'm someone who usually calls that out when I see it. :confused:

I've done tactical classes, a fair amount of them at this point and at places that see a lot of DA/SA pistols. This doesn't make me an expert, it's simply a background of what I'm basing this on. When the shooter goes back to a ready position the notion is to decock. Are you going to remember to do this perfectly every time? I honestly don't know. I also don't know if people are going to keep their fingers off the triggers at all times. But just because people are fallible doesn't, to me, mean we should abandon the goal. I still tell people to keep their fingers off triggers when possible, just like I tell them to remember to decock. It takes a lot of repetitions to become an ingrained habit, but it will get to as close as possible to that point.

I do think there are extremes. For instance in target transitions, should you decock? My opinion is no as there's still an active threat. That said I know some places that go to the extreme of saying a safety or decock should be done when transitioning targets as there may be something in he background during the transition that you want added safety to avoid shooting. I'm just presenting views.

get a cheap laser and learn to stroke thru the DA pull rapidly and repeatedly
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Eh, idk if I agree with rapidly and repeatedly.

There's an old drill called the wall drill. Status check the firearm to make sure that it's clear, both magazine and chamber. Do that again. Then find a blank wall, nothing on it to attract the eye. I like to use a basement wall or at least a wall facing the safest direction relative to your house as possible (as with any dry fire it's paramount to ensure status for safety). Get in a firing stance with the pistol out in your hands as if you were pointing at a target straight ahead. Move up and press the muzzle against the wall, then back off an inch or so. The reason to be this close is because your attention should be entirely on that front sight. Then slowly at first press the trigger through its travel until it drops. The goal is to see as little motion in the front sight as possible. With a DA trigger this isn't always easy. Keep doing this drill for say 10 minutes or so a day. At some point you're going to get fatigue in your hands and I find you start reinforcing negative tendencies if you do the drill too long. I say slowly because for me personally I find practicing it slower tends to reinforce the muscle control I want. Then when I do an actual drill I pick up the pace. You can practice pressing the trigger faster as well, I'm just saying have some caution to prevent yourself from jerking the trigger.

The above drill is something I recommend to beginners and experienced shooters. If I'm getting lax with my training at times I find I'll start jerking the pistol in anticipation of the recoil. A week of doing the above drill usually gets me back on track. For the record I do that drill regardless of trigger type.

Lastly, I'd recommend a hand exerciser. I recommend this also regardless of trigger type, but the difference is more noticeable with DA. I like ProHands exercisers as you can exercise all fingers individually, but that's just me. They also offer different weights from Light all the way to Extra Extra Heavy so you can work up as you build strength.
 
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It takes a lot of repetitions to become an ingrained habit, but it will get to as close as possible to that point.
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I agree completely: you do it often enough and you will keep your finger off the trigger when it should be and you will decock (and return the decocker/safety lever to fire if your pistol is so designed) when it needs to be.
 
Right and I'm not trying to nitpick with you so take my comment with a grain of salt. I just wanted to get across the importance of a smooth press. You're right that there's always a balance with speed, however.
 
Honesly I think folks make way too much of the transition between DA and SA.

The P07 has a nice reset and since you said you had an XD, I bet you'll take to the SA pull easily. The big transition will be the longer DA pull.

When I was trying to learn the DA/SA I found the single most difficult was the first pull at speed. I was almost always 3 inches high until I really worked at it, subsequent shots were fine.

So, I just worked from thr holster (or low ready) 1 shot DA, then decock and back to holster/low ready. Once that first shot was consistently where I needed it to be, then I started the doubles and triples.

I found since I needed the most work on the long pull, that second shot was just wasting ammo.

YMMV, naturally
 
I won't try to tell you how to train, but I will remind you, and everyone else, to only decock your pistol when its pointed in a safe direction.

It doesn't matter if its decock only or decock and on safe, ONLY do this with the pistol pointed in a safe direction, because, if something fails, the gun could fire!!

Its not likely but its not impossible, so BE SAFE!!
 
I shoot both DA/SA and strikers guns and switch back and forth between them all the time.

For my DA/SA guns almost all of my dry fire practice is done in DA. I focus on keeping my sights on target as I make one long smooth pull of the trigger. Live fire varies and really depends on what I feel like working on that particular day. Some times it might be all SA shots and other days it might be all DA shots. I do tend to do transition drills on a somewhat regular basis. It starts out in DA followed by 1 to 4 SA shots. No one can tell anyone else what percentage of DA vs SA shots they should be practicing. Only you can answer that for yourself and it becomes apparent pretty fast how much work you need.

Even though I practice the same holstering technique for both my SA/DA and striker models. I feel a little more at ease with the SA/DA. With it decocked I also keep my thumb on the hammer as I holster them, still no room for complacency. You also have a visual cue as to whether the gun is in SA or DA mode. If you have a DA/SA model like a Walther P-99 AS minus a hammer, some of the above won't apply.

I decock my guns every time I'm not ready to fire the gun or I want additional DA practice.
 
I just wanted to get across the importance of a smooth press.
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Two sides of the same coin.
To keep the gun from moving off target young have to stroke thru the trigger smoothly and you have to stroke thru the trigger smoothly t keep the gun from moving off target.
 
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