DA/SA Decocking

O

OhioGuy

New member
I just picked up my first DA/SA gun (CZ P-07) and love it. I just need to get used to running it properly.

1. Are there any specific drills that are useful for getting used to the DA/SA transition shot, besides just doing double-taps until I'm good at it?

2. In tactical use, when would one decock the pistol? I'm thinking "every time the gun comes off target" or "every time you're back to low-ready position" is probably the correct answer, however, "keep your finger off the trigger" always applies too.

2a. I've read some who say "the first shot out of the holster will be double-action..." Am I right in thinking it's more accurate to say "the first shot of any string of fire will be double action?"

I've never heard this covered in any training class. The DA/SA people seem to know what they're doing already and the instructors assume nobody else has one. One guy did ask an instructor about this when I first got started shooting, and his answer was "sell it and buy a Glock." :rolleyes:
 
Alright here is my amateur opinion:

1. The drill I run a lot with my FNX and SW 659 is I set up two targets each starting at about 10 yards away and as I go move them further out depending on how it's going. I load two mags with two rounds each. I load the first mag and decock, fire two rapid shots at the first target, drop the mag, load a new one and fire two shots at the other target. Only the first shot is DA but it has helped with the transition, reload speed, and target acquisition.

2. I would want the pistol decocked when in a holster or when I bring it out of the safe in a potential home defense scenario. I probably would not mess with it an an active defense situation as you described where any time the pistol comes off target you decock it, it just seems like you would be taking your mind somewhere unnecessary.

2A. If I understand your question correctly, it doesn't have to be. Especially if you're just at the range, usually the SA trigger is fantastic and much more fun to shoot.
 
One guy did ask an instructor about this when I first got started shooting, and his answer was "sell it and buy a Glock."
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I think that's terrible advice for a new shooter. Glocks are super easy to use but also super easy to make a mistake with. I get that everyone who uses them is 'perfect' and has never made a mistake in their lives but when I see highly trained people getting Glock leg I have to think its just human nature to eventually make a mistake, especially when tired, sick, etc. I mean how many of us have lost our car keys or phone or walked into a room and forgotten what we needed, etc? Anyway...

I just got my first DA/SA pistol (Beretta 92). I have a buddy who is pretty well known in 3gun and his advice to start was to get some snapcaps and practice that DA shot at home doing various dry fire drills.
 
1) FWIW, I find DA/SA owners shoot too many rounds SA in training. 90% at first and 50% later of shots down range should be DA to SA transitions. Something like draw and shoot 2 to a paper plate, reload, decock then push out from low ready for another DA/SA transition.....or even repeating draw and shoot 2 100's of times. This also needs mixed in with

As bad as I think this platform is, all platforms have these kinds of issues. SAO people need to draw, safety off, finger on trigger....1000's of times.

Striker people need to practice 1000's of draw and reholsters.

2) Just before reholstering, but with a CZ, I would be tempted to put on safe and reholstering, but will I be able to take off safe when drawing?
 
When practicing I would decock when I lowered the gun or paused in shooting, always Before holstering and then move to OFF safe for carry.

I took an advanced pistol class and this platform was definitely in the minority, since I've always carried on off safe there wasn't an issue but another guy incurred the wrath of the instructor because he fumbled with his safety on a drill, so I get the glock comment.


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I decock and fire 33% in the DA mode. Just is if it would be in a SD situation. Learn to stage the DA trigger just like a revolver. That long DA pull is your safe guard to not have a negligent discharge in a high stress situation.:D;)
 
peterg7 said:
When practicing I would decock when I lowered the gun or paused in shooting, always Before holstering and then move to OFF safe for carry.

I took an advanced pistol class and this platform was definitely in the minority, since I've always carried on off safe there wasn't an issue but another guy incurred the wrath of the instructor because he fumbled with his safety on a drill, so I get the glock comment.


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My P07 is configured in a decock only setup, no safety, which is how I want it. I can change out the parts to make it safety only and carry cocked and locked, but I'm sticking to DA/SA only.

In theory, reholster this gun in single action is no more dangerous than to reholster a striker gun, especially the latest generations that really are SAO and have very short trigger. Both cannot fire when reholstering SO LONG AS THE TRIGGER ISN'T PULLED. The difference really is in how little margin for error each has in case the "booger hook" or some piece of clothing goes where it shouldn't.

Clearly I'm going to decock first. And I realize this will require tons of practice...but so does any gun!
 
Very good advice here:
I decock and fire 33% in the DA mode. Just is if it would be in a SD situation. Learn to stage the DA trigger just like a revolver. That long DA pull is your safe guard to not have a negligent discharge in a high stress situation.
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DA/SA owners shoot too many rounds SA in training. 90% at first and 50% later of shots down range should be DA to SA transitions.
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Rod
 
Ernest Langdon kind of led the way in proving that you can get good hits with the crunchenticker. His motto is "Fear not the double action shot."

Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY
Article
https://pistol-training.com/articles/fear-not-the-double-action-shot


A lot IPSC shooters in Standard Division shoot DA/SA because rules require a 5 lb first shot trigger pull, then ad lib. So if you have, say, a CZ with 7 lb DA followed by 3 lb SAs, you are better off than with a Glock at 5 lb all the time.

A number of USPSA Production shooters have gone DA/SA even though they do not have a minimum first trigger pull. They find that one DA shot can be worth it to get to crisp following SA shots, better than a light mushy hair trigger Glock.


Certainly you should practice the DA shot and the DA-SA crunch-tick.
Something else to do is to shoot two shots on each of two targets; DA-SA, SA-SA, just so you are not looking for that DA first shot on each target.
 
Dry fire every day. Practice the DA when doing so more than the SA. If you can shoot in DA you can shoot in SA. And yes decock every time sights come off target.

If you get to the point where you start doing training with it and are willing to travel the SIG Sauer Academy covers DA/SA pistols in every class, for obvious reasons. Really it's just an additional step. But you need to work on it until it becomes subconscious.
 
I never stage the DA trigger when practicing it. Most likely I would not have the time in a SD situation. For me a quick but smooth (not jerking) pull all the way through. I also practice strong hand only because in a SD situation I may not be able to use both hands.

Practice DA only a lot by dry firing. I do it until the front sight stays on target consistently. The transition from DA to SA is something you almost have to practice at the range. I also usually shoot a couple magazines of DA only when I want to work on that skill at the range. When practicing the transition I usually do one DA followed by 2-3 SA shots.

Some will stage the DA trigger while extending the arms onto the target as per Langdon video. I don't have a range anywhere around here where I can practice that so I don't even try. Personally I get good results not staging the trigger so that is how I do it and I can easily practice dry firing at home.
 
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OhioGuy said:
What exactly does everyone mean by "staging the trigger?"
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You press the trigger right up to the break point, then pause to make sure your sights are still aligned before completing the trigger press. In most cases, the trigger pull weight for that last bit of the trigger press will still be greater than it would be for the SA trigger press of a DA/SA pistol, or a SAO pistol since you will still be compressing the mainspring some. But for some it is difficult to maintain precise sight alignment and sight picture during the entirety of a long DA trigger pull, so staging the trigger can improve accuracy.

In some revolvers and some pistols it is very easy to determine precisely when the DA trigger will break and in others it is not as easy. As has been said, most self-defense handgun gurus frown on staging the trigger. You will likely not have time to do that if you have to shoot in self-defense, and you should train in the manner you anticipate having to fight.
 
My suggestion would be to get a cheap laser and dry fire until you can basically hold the laser nearly still while stroking thru the DA pull at a rapid pace.
I had shot a lot with a DA revolver before I got a DA/SA auto I found the transition very easy to adapt to.
 
Dry fire every day. Practice the DA when doing so more than the SA. If you can shoot in DA you can shoot in SA. And yes decock every time sights come off target.
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^^^ TunnelRat nailed it.

Most shooters today have not practiced controlling a long, heavy DA trigger pull. Practice the DA pull first, largely through dry firing. Don't worry about shooting in SA until you feel good about shooting in DA.

While some will disagree, don't practice staging unless you want to permanently ingrain a pause in your trigger stroke.
 
Do we need another "I hate Glock" set of posts or "Buy a Glock" set of posts?

NO - if you don't want a Glock because of the now ancient set of Internet cliches - don't buy one.

Let's answer this question.

Ok - it was said:

2. In tactical use, when would one decock the pistol? I'm thinking "every time the gun comes off target" or "every time you're back to low-ready position" is probably the correct answer, however, "keep your finger off the trigger" always applies too.
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Do you really think you are going to put in time to learn to do this instinctively in a stress filled incident? How many reps are you going to do?

What does it mean to come off target? Do you shoot competitions where you have something like an El Presidente? http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-training/the-lengendary-el-presidente-shooting-drill/

Decock between each target - get real. I opine that the question would be answered by some real experience in a 'tactical class' or competitions.

If you are in a fight, I might suggest you decock when the fight is over.

The idea of the DA first is to avoid the doofus with finger on the trigger firing a bad shot. It is debatable whether training or greater trigger pull would solve the problem for the doofus. Now, there is quite a bit of research indicating that a panic, stumble, bad finger twitch/pull will go right through the heavier DA pull. We have quite a bit of research showing that folks keep their finger on the trigger even when they say they didn't. Anecdotally, we have LEOs saying that the heavier pull did slow them down enough to avoid a bad shoot.

Rather than decock, it is argued that taking your finger off the trigger between targets is optimal. That comes from much training and practice. It has been reported that the DA trigger can lead to a ND because the gun goes to SA and the doofus puts his or her finger on the trigger, forgetting it is lighter. This increases ND probability as the shooter thinks he or she is protected by the heavier weight.

So - I suggest to forget the decock till the fight is over AND if you are serious, serious level handgun technique classes and much practice, practice, practice as a real solution.

If you are scared of a Glock, that's fine - let's not go there anymore.
 
Dry firing is important, but honestly with DA/SA, the transition is the issue....not sure how to dry fire that? Ideas?
 
My agency issued Smith & Wesson "Third Generation", traditional double-action (da/sa) pistols. We were required to carry the pistol with the safety in the "off" position. Unless the course of fire involved multiple targets, all training required drawing from the holster, firing two shots (da/sa), decocking (which simultaneously puts the safety "on"), then moving the safety back to "fire" before reholstering. Practicing trigger pulls from da to sa makes the transition between the two configurations become a very natural action.

When shooting to save your life, it's my opinion that "staging" the pull on a da trigger is a bad habit to get into. If you have time to stage a trigger, you probably have time to cock the hammer.
 
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