DA Revolvers, Trigger Weight, and Safety Lever

Let's say it's a 4.5 lb or less trigger weight on a DAO revolver that you have on hand.

What's the lowest effective trigger pull weight on a DA you've seen?

All of this is totally speculative and not related to the real world - there's a real limit to how low you can tune a revolver DA and have it work - less than that is just fantasy speculation, and what's the point? Why not say -5lbs at that point?

As previously stated - the best you're going to get in a specially tuned, competition DA is 5.5 lbs. So anything less than that is pure speculation on what "might happen" and is really a moot point since it cannot be achieved.

Here's what I just measured -

This has to be prefaced with the fact that the older S&W's actions could be tuned beyond just changing springs.

1980's S&W Revolvers

1983 M629 factory trigger with no action work
DA 10lb 9oz
SA 3lb 10oz

1982 M624 - trigger tuned
DA 7lb 3oz
SA 2lb 14oz

1984 M57 - trigger tuned
DA 7lb 0oz
SA 2lb 11oz

Modern S&W Revolvers: 2011 - 2013


Jerry Miculek M625 - action tuned
DA 9lb 4oz
SA 3lb 11oz

.460 X-Frame - trigger tuned
DA 9lb 9oz
SA 3lb 4oz

Ruger DA Revolver (2012)

Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan - action tuned
DA 11lb 3oz
SA 3lb 6oz

For comparison - here are some "safe action" type semi-autos -

HK P30 V1 trigger
5lb 6oz

HK VP9
5lb 14oz

SIG P229
DA 10lb 14oz (slide cycled - then action decocked)
SA 4 lb 4oz

You'll notice that the modern DA pistols all have DA triggers above 9lbs even when tuned, which today, consists of changing springs until the primer will not reliably ignite - and then going up in spring weight until the revolver is reliable.

Speculation about what would happen "IF" you had one 4.5lbs (or whatever) is useless as you cannot tune a revolver DA to that point.
 
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The premise is that the trigger weight on the DAO is intentionally made substantially less to SA weights.

Would a safety lever make sense in this setup, or is it still highly unlikely to discharge "accidentally"?

Who cares? What's the point? Is this just an excursion into fantasy land?

Revolver DA's cannot be made to do that - so, I'm afraid I don't get why you're asking the question. Has no application to how DA's really work.

Your original question had to do with how low before it would be considered "unsafe." Since the semi-auto long pull "safe action" triggers are in the 5lb+ range - then just apply that level to DA revolvers - although that level of trigger pull cannot be achieved in a revolver DA...
 
Lee Enfield said:
What's the lowest effective trigger pull weight on a DA you've seen?

I already answered that. Go back and re-read my first reply.

I tend to agree with others. Without listening to input from others and/or telling us why you're interested, you're giving the strong impression you don't understand much about the workings of a DA revolver and that you're merely entertaining fantasies.
 
I've only owned one (well two..but it's different versions of the same thing) revolver and I have to say Venom mentioned the key thing. The DA trigger pull is incredibly long and it is two staged. A safety to keep dummies from accidentally pulling the trigger is pointless in this case. You have to work at it to make a DA revolver go off. As far as trigger pull force goes, there is a minimum limit for the pistol to function properly. Depending on different designs, that's your lower limit for safety and functionality.
 
@ MrBorland: As for the lowest trigger weight, I was seeking what others have seen as well and pooling in the information. Info found on the internet is ideally verified in person, but reading and confirming others' experiences and thoughts are at least a decent reference point. Here is another forum where I was retrieving info that gets into lower weights: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r-pull-weights.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

As to the why, it was out of curiosity. No harm in that...
 
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If you noticed, there is a response from a gunsmith who said -

With certain other careful techniques, most revolvers came out of my shop with a trigger pull of 8 - 9 pounds.

That correlates to exactly what my S&W triggers are - nearly 8lbs (7lbs+) for the 1980's guns, and 9lbs+ for the 2011 and up guns.

Trigger pulls lighter than that and you're in the area of trial-and-error and swapping parts until you get just the right combination. Personally, I've never seen a REAL DA trigger under 5lbs on a competition gun - and that trigger was done by a guy who used to tune national champion level guns in the 1980's.

I've seen some people attempt to achieve lower weights after doing everything possible to the springs and internals by backing off the strain screw.

That often results in unreliable ignition. When you start backing off the strain screw, reliable ignition requires exact interaction of all of the springs to ignite the primer. When the strain screw is backed off to the limit of reliable ignition - it is affected by trigger pull speed.
 
I think there's a great deal of confusion between a "safety" & a "manual safety lever". Most revolvers have several "safeties" but they're internal & automatic.

The absolute best "manual safety" is still the one between the ears!
 
Strangely enough, even though I have a couple of tuned revolvers with as light DA pulls as will pop a Federal primer, the only scary light double actions I have seen were on automatics. The ASAI OnePro .45 and the Kimber Solo will take some practice. Their safety is the length of travel of the DA trigger, not its weight of pull.
 
Lee Enfield said:
@ MrBorland: As for the lowest trigger weight, I was seeking what others have seen as well and pooling in the information. Info found on the internet is ideally verified in person, but reading and confirming others' experiences and thoughts are at least a decent reference point.

As I, and those in that link indicate, the lightest actions are 5lbs, and I'm surprised to read some get it a bit below that even. But again, these are highly-tuned revolvers mostly coming from one shop (Randy Lee @ Apex Tactical) using Apex's own spiffy DAO hammer and a bunch of tuning tricks. This isn't the type of action you'll get yourself or even from your local gunsmith. And even Apex-tuned guns come with caveats - they're only reliable with carefully prepped match ammo (i.e. fully seated Federal primers) and can easily be short-stroked if you have a habit if riding the trigger during the return.

I tried getting my model 66 down to about 5.5lbs myself, but it wouldn't reliably light off even Federal primers. Again, getting it to do so is much more than just a standard action job. My lightest action right now is on my 5" Model 625 .45acp. It's around 6 1/2 lbs.

Truth be told, "smooth" is much more important that "light", and I and most others, won't benefit from going below 7 - 7 1/2 lbs, even if the gun were reliable. I recently gave the "why" in another forum, so I'll just paste it below:

Some lightness goes a long way. I can't pull off 0.20 splits with a 10lb trigger, but I can with a 7.5lb trigger. But...and these are big "buts"...1) 0.20 is a hard speed limit for me, and I can't go any faster with 5.5lb pull, 2) despite what one might think by watching Miculek vids, matches aren't won with blazing splits anyway and 3) I'll start short stroking the trigger if I go much lower than 7lbs, and short stroking the trigger even once costs dearly in a match.

For the above reasons, many competitive revolver shooters, IMO, put too much emphasis on an extremely light action. It's de rigueur to have an Apex-tuned 5lb action (which has to be smooth), but in the majority of cases, it's not needed and comes with some real compromises.

As far as safety, an über-light DA is as safe as a stock DA, and bad safety habits will trump both equally effectively.
 
"...what if the trigger weight was reliably reduced..." It'd still be 100% safe. DA triggers are routinely smoothed and lightened with a trigger job. The pull still has to provide enough 'whack' to impress the primer.
Had a Smith 19 that had a really nice trigger. No idea what the actual pull measured. Smooth is more important.
"...still the one between the ears!..." Best and most important period.
 
Howdy Again

I read the post over at the S&W Forum you referred to. Those guys are talking about revolvers that have been tuned to the Nth degree. They are like race cars compared to a street Chevy. You will notice there are several references to Federal primers. Those guys are mostly using Federal primers because Federals are the lightest brand of primer and require the lightest hit to fire them. Some of those guns will not fire if loaded with ammunition that uses Winchester or CCI primers because they require a harder smack from the firing pin to ignite them. We see this kind of thing all the time in the CAS world. Even though in CAS we shoot single action revolvers, the same holds true. If you tune a gun right at the edge of the envelope it might fire ammo that uses Federal primers, and might not fire ammo that uses Winchester or CCI primers.

Let's talk for a minute about all the things that happen inside a Double Action revolver when you pull the trigger to shoot it in double action mode. Here is one of the photos I posted earlier. Notice I have labelled three sprinigs. You are compressing all those springs when you pull the trigger on any modern S&W double action revolver. Actually, there are a few more springs you are compressing, hidden inside the hammer assembly and at the pawl, but let's just talk about those three for the moment.

Most important is the hammer spring or Main Spring. When you pull the trigger, you are rotating the hammer back, which bends the hammer spring. Obviously if the hammer spring is lighter than usual, it takes less effort to pull back the trigger. There are several ways to lighten the hammer spring, including the incorrect method of backing out the strain screw. The correct way to lighten the hammer spring is to replace it with an aftermarket spring. And you can go further, you can carefully grind the spring down to weaken it further. But if you go too far, lighten it too much, the gun becomes unreliable and will not light off primers reliably. You may wind up with a gun that will only fire Federal primers and will not fire any other brand. Or you may go too far and the gun won't fire anything. But, we have lightened the hammer spring.

The Rebound Slide Spring is also compressed when the trigger is pulled. The trigger strut physically pushes the Rebound Slide backwards, you can see it in the second photo. The Rebound Slide has nothing to do with firing a cartridge, it is what pushes the trigger back forward again when you let go of the trigger. There is a very stiff compression spring inside the Rebound Slide that does the work, you can see it in both photos. So when you pull the trigger, you are fighting both the hammer spring and the rebound slide spring. Replacing and/or lightening the Rebound Slide Spring is common and will not affect whether or not the gun will fire cartridges. But it does affect how smartly the trigger snaps back into position for the next shot. Top shooters like Jerry Miculek actually like a relatively stiff Rebound Slide Spring, because with a spring that is too light, they can actually pull the trigger and let go and be ready for the next shot before the gun can accommodate them. With too light a Rebound Slide Spring they can actually get ahead of the gun.

The third spring I pointed to is the Cylinder Stop spring. The Cylinder Stop is the part that pops up and locks the cylinder in position, ready to fire. When you pull the trigger, there is a nub at the front of the trigger that pulls the Cylinder Stop down, compressing its spring. This is actually a relatively light spring and does not offer much resistance to the trigger.


lockworkmodel1702enhancedWithLabels_zps2edaeaac.jpg




In this photo you can see how the Hammer Spring and Rebound Slide Spring have been compressed.

lockworkmodel1703enhanced_zpsbb18ea16.jpg


What else are we doing when we pull the trigger? We are rotating the cylinder. Even though we are not overcoming a spring to rotate the cylinder, we are physically forcing it to rotate when we pull the trigger. That adds to perceived trigger pull.

And we haven't even talked about friction yet. Those Race Guns in that post on the S&W Forum have had extra work done to eliminate as much friction as possible in the mechanism. Merely putting in light springs is self defeating if one does not also eliminate excess friction. By carefully polishing selected surfaces of the parts, a skilled gunsmith will reduce the internal friction of the parts so the gun will reliably function and fire ammunition with lighter springs. Without polishing the parts, we get a gun with a very light trigger pull that will not reliably fire standard ammunition.

By the way, the Original Poster in that forum is dreaming when he talks about two to four pound trigger pulls on a modern S&W revolver. Just ain't gonna happen and have a reliable gun. I don't care what brand of primers he uses.

OK, I tested the trigger pull on a few more of the Smiths in my collection, using my trusty digital fishing scale. Note: these are all stock guns, none of them has been turned into a race gun.

38 M&P, 1930s vintage - 12 pounds
38 M&P, 1940s vintage - 10 pounds
Model 617 - 12 pounds
Model 65 - 12 pounds
Model 624 - 10 pounds
Model 1926 (made in 1929) 10 pounds
K-22 1930s vintage -12 pounds
Model 14-3 made in 1975 11 pounds
Model 17-3 made in 1975 11 pounds
Triple Lock Target Model made in 1908 11 pounds
Bekeart 22 Target Model from the 1940s - 13 pounds.

Note that the Model 14, 17, K-22, Triple Lock, and Bekeart were the premier target pistols of their day.

Is a Safety device needed on any of these guns? Absolutely not. No way they are going to discharge unless somebody pulls the trigger on purpose.

How about the 4 1/2 pound guns over at the S&W Forum? Of course not. Those are race guns. Nobody is going to be messing around with them in the woods. Anybody who shoots those guns knows what he is doing and knows the safety device is between his ears.
 
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Excellent post, DJ. And very informative, as usual.

The only thing I feel compelled to comment on is JM's return spring. Personally, I believe that JM would otherwise outrun his trigger is popular lore. Not taking anything away from his extraordinary skill, but a stock return was fast enough for Ed McGivern, and JM hasn't beat his 5-shot record.

It's much more likely that JM uses a heavy return because his lets the trigger help push his finger fully forward. "Riding the trigger" is generally a bad habit that'll show up as short-stroking when the return spring is lightened; but JM's got plenty of power in his trigger finger, so he can afford to buy a little extra insurance. I'd bet money he'd hate an Apex-tuned gun and would short-stroke the trigger more than often than not.
 
Setting aside for a moment that it should rely upon the competence of the shooter to keep the finger off the trigger when not intending to fire

If you are using a manual safety then you are "Relying in the competence of the user" to engage that safety and to keep it on until all the other safety rules are not in play, and on the reliability of the safety mechanism in adverse conditions or after wear and tear.

Never rely on a manual safety instead of safe gun handling.
 
I know what a manually operated safety is, just don't know what he means by a safety "lever" on a modern DA revolver.
Not even practical.

The Webley was a totally different animal.
Denis
 
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