D.C. vs. Heller (Supreme Court and the 2A) - Mega Thread

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I think they'll take it. If they do, I think it's a sign they'll rule against the prohibition.

Course, take that with a grain of salt, what do I know....
It's a thoughtful "hunch" is all. Hope they do. This has been left way to open for way too long.
The 2nd A. has become whatever one chooses to think it is.
 
Threads on DC v. Heller have been merged. No need to have more than one.

This thread will be "stickied" until we find out whether or not certiorari has been granted or denied.

Any other threads will be deleted.
 
Alan, not only do the handguns in DC have to have been registered since 1976, they have to have been registered by the current owner.

From the DC law:
a) A registration certificate shall not be issued for a:

(1) Sawed-off shotgun;

(2) Machine gun;

(3) Short-barreled rifle; or

(4) Pistol not validly registered to the current registrant in the District prior to September 24, 1976
No buying and selling registered guns like full autos. It's illegal to sell handguns in DC anyway.
 
Seems to me that I recall, from what I've read, the following.

Reference has been made to the fact that individual rights notwithstanding, REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS/REGULATION would be O.K.

As has been noted, The Devil Is In The Details, and respecting this business of "reasonable", there are a hellish amount of "details" in which numerous "devils" might hide. Possibly I seek to simplify that which won't be simplified.
 
alan said:
Reference has been made to the fact that individual rights notwithstanding, REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS/REGULATION would be O.K.
There are some caveats that go along with that, alan. Should the Court uphold the Circuit, in that the right is an individual right, we should be hoping that they also uphold that it's a fundamental right. In this, strict scrutiny would apply to any law that restrited the right.

If the right is not held as a fundamental right, then either intermediate scrutiny or even the rational basis test (lowest form) may apply.

"Reasonable" takes on different meanings according to the test made.
 
I know the courts work funny, but it was my understanding that any enumerated right was, by definition, fundamental thus strict scrutiny applies.

I guess we'll find out.
 
I think our chief concern is that they'll decide 'strict scrutiny' is appropriate, but that it will be 5th circuit/Emerson style 'strict scrutiny', which is really just 'rational basis' analysis being called "strict scrutiny". If that's what we end up with, it might inconvenience the anti-gunners a bit, but it wouldn't really improve the situation for most Americans, who live outside the city limits of Chicago or D.C..
 
I think our chief concern is that they'll decide 'strict scrutiny' is appropriate, but that it will be 5th circuit/Emerson style 'strict scrutiny', which is really just 'rational basis' analysis being called "strict scrutiny". If that's what we end up with, it might inconvenience the anti-gunners a bit, but it wouldn't really improve the situation for most Americans, who live outside the city limits of Chicago or D.C..

From what I've read on the internet (the most trusted source of information I know ;-) there are 4 justices who would probably see this as, right or wrong, an strict right and if you want to take it away, you have to change the constitiution.

But as for the others ... those same internet resources say that Roberts likes to keep dissent down to a minimum, so they may compromise on something like is listed above.

The next 3 to 5 months are going to suck, as with so much hanging in the balance we probably won't even get a hint as to the outcome until it is announced.

I know there are MANY people posting on this thread with much more knowledge of legal processes/precedent/SCOTUS workings etc., but that summarizes the best of what I have read.
 
Question?

Does the 2nd, or any Amendment, refer to what ANY governmental authority is prohibited from doing, or just Federal? Moreover: does it also outlaw anyone in any capacity, governmental or not, from violating another individual's constitutional rights. As an example, if your employer, a local supermarket chain, had a standing policy that voting in any election is cause for termination, would that be a constitutional violation. Obviously something would make that illegal. What?
 
Yelling fire in the ever popular "crowded theater" is against the law so I guess that's one example of laws regulating Constitutionally guarded rights.


I'm interested in how this plays out. Even Scalia and Thomas aren't going to want to open the floodgates and let people buy grenades and rocket launchers which is what a literal interpretation might do. Or, they could do just that but allow the individual states to set regulations. In that world, gov't could set minimum standards by withholding funds or services until some form of compliance is met (eg. no FAA flight approval in states that do not prohibit SAMs).

They could say whatever ruling they reach affect only D.C. because it's not a state.

The could keep the current federal framework but give states near complete power in regulating firearms, leaving some to become more stringent and others to become more lax.
 
Antipitas writes, quoting my earlier comment:
Originally Posted by alan
Reference has been made to the fact that individual rights notwithstanding, REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS/REGULATION would be O.K.

There are some caveats that go along with that, alan. Should the Court uphold the Circuit, in that the right is an individual right, we should be hoping that they also uphold that it's a fundamental right. In this, strict scrutiny would apply to any law that restrited the right.

If the right is not held as a fundamental right, then either intermediate scrutiny or even the rational basis test (lowest form) may apply.

"Reasonable" takes on different meanings according to the test made.

Al:

How this "reasonable" cookie might crumble could likely depend on the following. The end results that the person or persons using the term desired or might wish to impose on others.

My definition of "reasonable control" includes the following.

The most serious punishment for those who misused or made criminal use of any firearm, leaving the law abiding free of hoops and red tape, which would include their purchase or whatever type of firearms they might desire. Otherewise, Gun Control would amount to careful sight alignment and trigger control.

End.
 
Even Scalia and Thomas aren't going to want to open the floodgates and let people buy grenades and rocket launchers

I seems a reasonable regulation (like yelling fire) that "arms" would be defined as those basically designed for use by a single person, with each "cycle of operation" intended to engage a single person (like a gun, sword or knife). Bombs, rockets and jet fighters do not neatly fit in this category as the basic intent of their design is to target groups of persons in a single cycle of operation. Hence, we have a clear distinction that most reasonable people can make.

Simple regulations like those are not likely to upset the "individual right" folks while offering a little consolation for the gun control folks who stand to lose big this summer.
 
Willie D writes:

Yelling fire in the ever popular "crowded theater" is against the law so I guess that's one example of laws regulating Constitutionally guarded rights.


I'm interested in how this plays out. Even Scalia and Thomas aren't going to want to open the floodgates and let people buy grenades and rocket launchers which is what a literal interpretation might do. Or, they could do just that but allow the individual states to set regulations. In that world, gov't could set minimum standards by withholding funds or services until some form of compliance is met (eg. no FAA flight approval in states that do not prohibit SAMs).

They could say whatever ruling they reach affect only D.C. because it's not a state.

The could keep the current federal framework but give states near complete power in regulating firearms, leaving some to become more stringent and others to become more lax.

------------------

Re the above, I find the following excerpt rather interesting: "I'm interested in how this plays out. Even Scalia and Thomas aren't going to want to open the floodgates and let people buy grenades and rocket launchers which is what a literal interpretation might do."

Not that old saw about "grenades and rockets" again, and if so, while you are at it, how about artillery pieces? What about nuclear weapons too, given that you seem willing to engage in what strikes me as a hellishly large stretch. Re that literal interpretation you mention, do you really think that, or are you simply playing devil's advocate?
 
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Pettioners are reframing the question away from "Individual" vs "Collective" - opting instead for an interpretation that the 2nd protects something more like "government regulated military service of civilians" citing some writings of the period. This argument, backed by their evidence sounds plausible. Respondents argue this notion as apparently the "best kept secret" of the period from which the constitution was framed.

In any case, there seems to be a broad platform for the Supreme Court to grant pettition of centiorari - no doubts there. I predict this case will be heard - no psychic ability needed on that one.

But the SCOTUS has its work cut out for it determining the meaning of the 2nd amendment. I can't hazard a guess which way this will fall.
 
Opponents of private gun ownership have been trying to sell the idea that the Second Amendment actually protects state's rights, not those of individuals. So nine out of ten of the amendments contained in the Bill of Rights were written to protect the rights of individuals, while one, the second, was written to protect the rights of government. Aren’t the people who push this idea the same people who generally oppose to the concept of state’s rights? Where’s the logic?
 
Not bad at all, for the NYTimes. The only mistake the reporter made on was the Miller decision.
A decision in 1939, United States v. Miller, held that a sawed-off shotgun was not one of the “arms” to which the Second Amendment referred in its single, densely written, and oddly punctuated sentence:
Of course, the Miller Court did not say that. Barring that one mistake, the Times piece was fairly balanced.

Not so, an ABA article: A Shot at the Second Amendment, which makes for an interesting, albeit a slightly stronger biased, read.
 
Fox news 11/12

WASHINGTON — Supreme Court justices have track records that make predicting their rulings on many topics more than a mere guess. Then there is the issue of the Second Amendment and guns, about which the court has said virtually nothing in nearly 70 years.

That could change in the next few months.

The justices are facing a decision about whether to hear an appeal from city officials in Washington, D.C., wanting to keep the capital's 31-year ban on handguns. A lower court struck down the ban as a violation of the Second Amendment rights of gun ownership.

The prospect that the high court might define gun rights under the Constitution is making people on both sides of the issue nervous.

"I wouldn't be confident on either side," said Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor and author of a new book on the battle over guns in the United States.

The court could announce as early as Tuesday whether it will hear the case.

The main issue before the justices is whether the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to own guns or instead spells out the collective right of states to maintain militias. The former interpretation would permit fewer restrictions on gun ownership.

The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The federal appeals court for the District of Columbia was the first federal panel to strike down a gun-control law based on individual rights. The court ruled in favor of Dick Anthony Heller, an armed security guard whose application to keep a handgun at home was denied by the district.

Most other U.S. courts have said the Second Amendment does not contain a right to have a gun for purely private purposes.

Chicago has a similar handgun ban, but few other gun-control laws are as strict as the district's.

Four states — Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland and New York — are urging the Supreme Court to take the case because broad application of the appeals court ruling would threaten "all federal and state laws restricting access to firearms."

The district said its law, passed in 1976, was enacted by local elected officials who believed it was a sensible way to save lives. The law also requires residents to keep shotguns and rifles unloaded and disassembled or fitted with trigger locks.

The city's appeal asks the court to look only at the handgun ban because local law allows possession of other firearms.

Critics say the law has done little to curb violence, mainly because guns obtained legally from the district or through illegal means still are readily available.

Although the city's homicide rate has declined dramatically since peaking in the early 1990s, it ranks among the nation's highest, with 169 killings in 2006.

Heller said Washington remains a dangerous place to live. "People need not stand by and die," he said in court papers.

He said the Second Amendment gives him the right to keep working guns, including handguns, in his home for his own protection.

The last time the court examined the meaning of the Second Amendment was in a 1939 case in which two men claimed the amendment gave them the right to have sawed-off shotguns. A unanimous court ruled against them.

Gun control advocates say the 1939 decision in U.S. v. Miller settled the issue in favor of a collective right. Gun rights proponents say the decision has been misconstrued.

Chief Justice John Roberts has said the question has not been resolved by the Supreme Court. The 1939 decision "sidestepped" the issue of whether the Second Amendment right is individual or collective, Roberts said at his confirmation hearing in 2005.

"That's still very much an open issue," Roberts said.

Both the district government and Heller want the high court to take the case. The split among the appeals courts and the importance of the issue make it likely that the justices will do so, Tushnet said.

The case is District of Columbia v. Heller, 07-290.
 
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