D.C. vs. Heller (Supreme Court and the 2A) - Mega Thread

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We need to adopt the strategy that the anti's used to take such a large chunk of our rights away in the first place- do it in small bites.

This is the first step of a LONG journey. First, you get the court to hold that an individual right exists. Then you push the definitions and the limits as much as you can. Then they will be reacting to us instead of vice versa. Freedom can prevail over tyranny.

40% of the country owns firearms. 75% believe there is an individual RKBA. You know those facts are on the court's mind. I think we are in fairly good shape. Let's start there and build on that.
 
THere's sooo much.. and the justices went through quite a lot of questioning of both individual rights and of milita-purpose of the amendment. It was hard to keep up typing at several points. That and some streaming audio drop-outs that were frustrating caused me to miss some points.

Here's what I get a sense of;

Chief Justice Roberts - He gets it too. Roberts sliced & diced DC's Dellinger on self-defense use of a gun in DC and on legality of moving the gun within the home. He also questioned the proposed "intermediate scrutiny" proposed by the Fed brief -- why articulate a new standard or an overly broad standard? The First Amendment picked up it's standards over time (long precendent history). Sounds like he was asking why the court should be restrained or confined by ANY method of scrutiny here.

Scalia - he gets it. Scalia commented early on that there's no conflict reading the 2nd clause as an individual right & the first clause as a reason for arming the people "the two clauses go together beautifully" he said. Scalia agreed the right was pre-existing and said "They refered to THE freedom of speech as a pre-existing right in the First Amendment for which we use strict scrutiny. Why would strict scrutiny not also apply to the 2nd Amendment? ... Especially good was when Scalia & Roberts both asked DC Counsel Dellinger about the time required to remove a trigger lock and finding out they were 3-digit dial locks. Scalia said "So you sit up, turn on the lights, put on your reading glasses.... " (Laughter from the gallery).

Kennedy - I'm sure he gets it and is leaning towards individual rights. Not sure if he'll think "reasonable restrictions" include bans or strict regulations. He asked if the framer's foremost intent was that the people not be disarmed. I think that says a lot about his understanding of the history and meaning. Kennedy kept asking if individuals living in the wilderness had a right to keep and bear arms -- farmers, frontiersmen, etc. who aren't part of a local militia.

Alito asked Dellinger if the purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to prevent disarming of millita, and since the Federal gov't has regulatory power over milita, then what was the function of the 2nd as far as militias are concerned? He didn't seem to be too impressed with D.C.'s argument in light of the other militia provisions of the constitution.

Stevens - his first question was that state constitutions guarantee the same rights - so what do they guarantee? This says he's looking at what is guaranteed by state constitutions with the same wording and coming to the conclustion that those constitutions are not guarding a "state's right" to a militia. He also asked if Madison was influenced by state constitutions? He said that (at that time) two states had (explicit) indivdual right statements, but rest went another direction (common defence, milita preface)? He also asked Solicitor General Clemets if the introductory clause omitted would amendment have same meaning? And got a "no" answer. I don't think that satisfied many members of the court. He also asked if the English BOR phrase "suitable ot their condition" meant some people could be denied arms -- i.e. Catholics & Scots. I think he was looking for a different answer - such as yes, however restrictions based on ancestry or religion would be abhorrent to our constitution today.

Ginsberg - Raised the issue of the English right to arms as subject to parlimentary law -- "suitable to their condition and as allowed by law". Seems that she was looking for a way to permit gun-control laws despite it being a right. She asked Solicitor General Clemets "Would (your) federal standard vs. strict scruitny make any difference when applied to other federal laws?" Here she seemed to be asking if the federal "intermediate" scrutiny was used, would it permit more restrictions that strict scrutiny. Ginsburg also said the 1st amendment has exceptions to strict scrutiny so why shouldn't the 2nd also be the same? Look for Ginsburg to find a way to allow regulations & restrictions while affirming an individual right.


Souter - Souter made a point after Ginsburg that not all rights of the English BOR were allowed to be "limited by law" as the right to arms were. Souter said that the emphasis is on The People but why any distinction between keep & bear? if keep is an independent guarantee then what is the purpose of "bear"? (why a further reference to "bear" arms) He suggested that Keep & Bear forms one phrase. He also seemed interested in the "military use" of the terms. He asked Would 18th century man say he was "bearing arms" to go hunting?

DC Counsel Dellinger appeared to struggling with direct answers to the questions put to him. Almost at once he agreed there was an individual right but the question was the scope & power of the 2nd Amendment. Of course, he then claims handguns aren't related to a militia; that it's the government run militia that dictates if you can have arms and that state amendments guarantees to the RKBA were "written under different terms".

Solicitor General Clement was asked about restrictions and limitations on RKBA and this is where Ginsburg and others focused on the english Bill of Rights and its exclusions "as allowed by law". (Which I have always interpreted as unless you are a different religion or class).

Heller Counsel Allan Gura I think he did a credible job, though at times I think the justices caught him a little off balance. He did try to argue against machineguns being protected (though at least one - Roberts or Scalia I think - suggested that these would likely be protected.

I think he might have impressed the court by suggesting simply that the MG issue was something to be decided later (the appellate court ruled that once you determine it is an "arm" it could be protected under the 2A).

Summary: I think it went well for our side. I didn't catch everything but the justices were well informed, asked probing questions and, I thought, were looking for cracks to insert their own thoughts on regulation, restrictions or limits (Ginsburg, Breyer and Stevens). We'll now have to wait on pins & needles for the decision.
 
Breyler's citing of statistics for gun deaths and harping on the need of a gov't to protect a citizenry from such harm let's us know where he is going. The man is more concerned with doing "social good" as he sees it than in following the letter of the law.

Overall I thought it was pretty good.
 
Did anyone else get what Breyer was asking Allan Gura early on when he asked Gura to "assume that it's an individual right, but purpose is to maintain citizen army..."?

My audio went out for about 20 seconds and I missed that exchange and some of what followed.

Does anyone know if Justice Clarence Thomas was even at the hearing? I don't recall him asking any questions.
 
Transcript link is in grid lock. Must be overwhelming the system.

BillCA - I appreciate your hard work & keeping us updated, Thanks
 
>>Does anyone know if Justice Clarence Thomas was even at the hearing? I don't recall him asking any questions.<<

I've read that Thomas has been known to go for years without asking questions during oral arguments.
 
I listened to the oral argument. I think Gura (Heller's counsel) flubbed a couple. He said licensure would be reasonable. This is a mistake tactically because, if it is a personal right, it cannot be licensed. He should have answered that licensing for the general right to keep and bear arms would be unlawful but that conditioning the right to buy on being a non-felon, non-mental defective, non-addict, etc. is okay. This is not just semantics.

As others mentioned, he also flubbed on the "plastic pistol" question. Of course, such a device does not exist and he should have said so and added that it might be okay to restrict it if the government could show meet the strict scrutiny test.

He also said that reasonable restrictions were okay. He should have clarified more forcefully that the test of reasonableness would be based only on strict scrutiny.

There was also questions about a rifle/shotgun being okay and, therefore, there is not a complete ban in D.C. The lock/dissasembly question aside, it would have been nice if he had pointed out that a rifle in an urban setting is much more dangerous than a handgun and, to start down that path, quickly leads to a complete ban.

I was also a bit worried at his almost concession that the "keep and bear arms" clause was contingent on the prefatory militia clause. He backed away from that but one justice (Breyer, I think) picked up on it and kept referring to briefs by the military officers.

Anyway, when all is said and done, I think the Court will determine it is an individual right and that D.C.'s law is so restrictive as to violate that right. There will be dicta that many gun laws can survive review. The opinion may or may not actually establish a standard of review.
 
In other words, he failed according to myself and most of us here. He should have taken a stonewall no means no position and not given any validation to any form of restriction. Where did they find this toad? Can they fire him?
 
Well, you do have to keep in mind he was trying to win his case and that is his foremost duty -- not to exonerate the rights of non-parties. I also think there are enough other briefs to cover the problems I saw in the oral argument.
 
Justice Thomas virtually never speaks at oral arguments. He's my favorite Justice by far, but that is a little weird. That's how he does his job, and he can't be fired.
 
Solicitor General Paul Clement, the Bush administration's top Supreme Court lawyer, supported the individual right but urged the justices not to decide the other question. Instead, Clement said the court should say that governments may impose reasonable restrictions, including federal laws that ban certain types of weapons.

I thought the GOP was "ProGun"

:rolleyes:

yes we support your "rights" BUT.......(the state comes first)

Sad when you think that this quote could come equally from the Clinton or Obama or McCain administration....
 
Well, you do have to keep in mind he was trying to win his case and that is his foremost duty

We have to win the right to keep our arms.
This will be back in the Supreme Court many times after we win the first round. :D
 
I thought the GOP was "ProGun"
The GOP used to be, but it was hijacked a long time ago. The SG was not representing the position of the White House, as borne out by VP Cheney's signing onto the Amicus brief.

Even affirmation that we have an individual right to keep and bear arms is a step forward. Iy's a foot in the door, so to speak.

TC
 
As others mentioned, he also flubbed on the "plastic pistol" question. Of course, such a device does not exist and he should have said so and added that it might be okay to restrict it if the government could show meet the strict scrutiny test.

The "Plastic" gun is not an issue here. We do not need to worry about the legalities of a weapon that does not exist. When that case comes to trial, the fact that the anti-gunners have invented this imaginary gun will come back and bite them in the .....

I don't think that spending the courts valuable time arguing the existance of this single weapon is a good move at this time. Everything in good time.
 
You are all getting worked up for nothing. When Cert was granted, the SCOTUS phrased the question thusly:

“Whether the following provisions — D.C. Code secs. 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02 — violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?”

It is fairly obvious to me that the court is probably going to uphold the appellate court's decision, based on what I heard today.

Whether Gura will accept a ban on machine guns or not has absolutely NOTHING to do with this case. Had he gone ahead and told them that the case would likely result in people toting machine guns, the Justices would likely find a reason to overturn the appellate court.

Machine gun bans, the NFA, CCW, suppressors, and all of the other issues that we care about here were not on the table. The VAST majority of the American public learned all the know about machine guns by watching movies and television. Even most of the people in this country who own guns think that machine guns are bad. baby steps. If you push too hard, the answer will not be in our favor, and the majority of the herd in this country will stampede away from us, just like they did to the Dems when they passed AWB94.

I think the strategy employed here was brilliant!
 
Robert Levy (Heller lawyer)......was also asked what types of handguns should be banned, HE raised the issue of "plastic handguns intended to survive metal detectors"; saying these could be banned

Did Mr. Levy forget to do his homework?

I've worked extensively with enclosed metal detectors and handheld (wand) metal detectors and they will sense the metal of small change, small keys, metal shoe inserts and socalled plastic guns.
 
divemedic said:
I think the strategy employed here was brilliant!

I agree. A narrower solid opinion with a large majority will serve us better than a weakly supported broad interpretation.

"Gun violence wont be cured by one set of laws. It will require years of partial measures that will gradually tighten the requirements for gun ownership, and incrementally change the expectations about the firepower that should be available to ordinary citizens."
New York Times, 1993-12-21
 
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