D.C. vs. Heller (Supreme Court and the 2A) - Mega Thread

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I guess we'll know in about 16 hours ... but I'd heard there may be 37 briefs filed for Heller.

So if DC wasn't limited to 20, and that's all they got, that's kind of interesting in and of itself.

I guess there are a lot more groups with $2,000 for printing costs alone plus the legal experetise that want to get involved in this for Heller than there are for the anti's.

Also interesting given how well funded the anti groups are.

Or, as the pessimist voice in me says, the insiders already know they have it in the bag and this is all for show.
 
Can anyone remember who said when ask who are the militia? and they replied, "It's all of us except a few elected officials".

As to the level of scrutiny, What don't you understand about, "Shall not be infringed."??
 
Rdak,

I think you are misunderstanding the distinction that SCOTUS is making with the rewording of the question they will answer.

I believe that by saying non-militia they are are talking about the much larger body of Americans (the People)!

As Anti and others have pointed out, and as many of the Respondent AmCu have pointed out, I am convinced that SCOTUS believes it as an individual right.

By narrowly choosing the question, by narrow, I mean the time and place, the home. I believe is a strong indicator of the leanings of SCOTUS.

My personal fear is the standard of review may not be dealt with in this case, and as Anti and others have pointed out, I don't expect that SCOTUS will deal with 14th incorporation either.

Than again, SCOTUS could very well deal with all three issues and surprise us all with a 9-0 decision.

On March 4th the Petitioner's reply brief is due, and it will be interesting to see if they do a better job than their merits brief.

I think oral arguments will give a better window into the SCOTUS thinking.

I do agree that for me personally, this is a very exciting time in my life.:D
 
Good points guys!

Yes, I should just wait to see what happens. I do feel real good about this case regardless of where the SCOTUS starts their review, etc. I hope my feelings are correct!!:D

Another thing - I feel very sorry for the law abiding citizens of DC who, for the last 30+ years, have been disarmed and legally powerless to defend themselves. That's a crime in and of itself IMHO. A very serious crime IMHO.:mad:

Can you imagine what it must be like for those law abiding DC residents? It must be just plain horrible.
 
"Another thing - I feel very sorry for the law abiding citizens of DC who, for the last 30+ years, have been disarmed and legally powerless to defend themselves. That's a crime in and of itself IMHO. A very serious crime IMHO."

Case in point:

A young man I know recently moved to D.C. to be closer to his girl friend who is working on a Master's degree. One evening as they were walking back to their apartment they were jumped by six young "gentlemen." Our hero, just out of college and a better-than-average athlete, fought back, putting four of the six on the ground. The other two took off running and as young Lochinvar gave chase, one of them turned and fired several shots at him. Sensibly, he retreated to accept the gratitude and admiration of the GF.

His mother, here in Portland, heard about the incident and immediately proclaimed that "No one should have guns!" When it was suggested that her son might well have profited from possessing one at that time. she simply reitterated "No one should have guns."

Now, all together: "Baaaaaaaaaaaaa."
 
The law enforcement one might have a dynamite surprise in it as far as police groups who signed on.

Is this what you're referring to? (Emphasis added...)

BRIEF OF THE INTERNATIONAL LAW
ENFORCEMENT EDUCATORS AND TRAINERS
ASSOCIATION (ILEETA), THE INTERNATIONAL
ASSOCIATION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT
FIREARMS INSTRUCTORS (IALEFI), MARYLAND
STATE LODGE, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE,
SOUTHERN STATES POLICE BENEVOLENT
ASSOCIATION, 29 ELECTED CALIFORNIA
DISTRICT ATTORNEYS, SAN FRANCISCO
VETERAN POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION
,
LONG BEACH POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION,
TEXAS POLICE CHIEFS ASSOCIATION, TEXAS
MUNICIPAL POLICE ASSOCIATION, NEW YORK
STATE ASSOCIATION OF AUXILIARY POLICE,
MENDOCINO COUNTY, CALIF., SHERIFF THOMAS
D. ALLMAN, OREGON STATE REP. ANDY OLSON,
NATIONAL POLICE DEFENSE FOUNDATION,
LAW ENFORCEMENT ALLIANCE OF AMERICA,
AND THE INDEPENDENCE INSTITUTE AS
AMICI CURIAE IN SUPPORT OF RESPONDENT
Law Enforcement Trainers and Educators
 
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Sorry -- decided my original post wasn't appropriate so I've deleted it. If the moderators would delete this whole entry I'd be grateful.

I was just pointing out that the best argument by the anti's against such as Cheny is just childish mocking and pictures.

gunguys.com idiocy
 
Reply to nobody

No, not the san francisco group. I'm not entirely sure if the Law Enforcement Trainer's brief is the ONLY leo brief coming. If so, then the group I thought that might blow the socks off isn't there.

Up to 28 briefs, prosecutors still not counted in that number and still not filed, maybe one more LEO brief or maybe I'm just cornfused.
 
The brief by Texas, et al., is interesting to read. First off, you have thirty-one states - 62% of them - acting in concert to support the individual rights view and supporting the D.C. Appeals court decision. You'd have a hard time getting the Attorney Generals from that many states to sing the same words to God Bless America in unison.

Texas argues that the 2nd is a fundamental right from the outset and supports this assertion in their arguments.


Texas argues that no membership in a militia is required;
The District’s narrow interpretation of “Militia” to include only some select body of permanent soldiers is also belied by the provisions of the Militia Act, enacted by the Second Congress the year after the Second Amendment’s ratification. The Militia Act expressly defined the militia as “each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective states, resident therein, who is or shall be of the age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years.” Militia Act, ch. XXXIII, 1 Stat. 271, 271 (1792).2 Thus, the “Militia” contemplated by the Framers was not limited to those enrolled in some type of state or local militia organization.

Footnote 2 pointed out the Milita Act required citizens to arm themselves with a firearm, hardly something that could be described as a "states" right;
2. Indeed, the Militia Act not only permitted gun ownership by every able-bodied man, it required it—obliging by law each man to “provide himself with a good musket or firelock . . . or with a good rifle.” Militia Act, 1 Stat., at 271 (emphasis added).

Texas says there are two questions before the court - does the amendment protect any individual rights at all? And do the D.C. statutes run afoul of those constitutional rights? Then they take a slap at the U.S. Attorney General's brief;

...But the two questions in this case are, in the eyes of amici, not difficult. If the answer to either question were in the negative, then the Second Amendment’s protections would be rendered illusory.

For the same reason, the amici States believe that the Department of Justice’s position that this case should be vacated and remanded is indefensible. Under any standard, including that advocated by the Department, a total prohibition on the possession of any functioning firearm cannot be sustained.

After discussing some history of the right to arms and the experiences of the Framers, Texas argues that The People could not be disarmed...

The Second Amendment answered the potential threat of a standing army with the guarantee that individual citizens could not be disarmed. The Framers saw that individual right as an essential bulwark of the people’s liberties. This Court should as well, and should affirm the judgment of the court of appeals.6

After making the statement that arms were necessary to support a militia who would be armed and outnumber any standing army that could be raised, Texas argues in footnote number 6 for immediate incorporation as a fundamental right. That's 31 states agreeing that incorporation could be justly decided by SCOTUS in this case!

6. Although the Court need not reach the issue of incorporation in this case, amici States submit that the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and so is properly subject to incorporation. To be sure, early decisions of this Court cast doubt on Second Amendment incorporation, see United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 553 (1875); Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 264-65 (1886), but those opinions predated the Court’s broad-based incorporation of the Bill of Rights against the States. See Duncan v. Louisiana, 391 U.S. 145, 148 (1968). In the judgment of amici States, the right to keep and bear arms is “so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental.” Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937) (citations and internal quotation marks omitted), overruled on other grounds, Benton v. Maryland, 395 U.S. 784 (1969). Authors of the Fourteenth Amendment concurred. See Van Alstyne, supra note 4, at 1252 (noting that in reporting the Fourteenth Amendment to the Senate, Senator Howard of Michigan described the right to keep and bear arms as among the Constitution’s “great fundamental guarantees” (internal quotation marks omitted)).

Texas also takes a shot at the absurdity of D.C.'s statutes by pointing out the D.C. laws are in opposition to all 50 state legislatures;
The Legislatures of all fifty States are united in their rejection of bans on private handgun ownership. Every State in the Union permits private citizens to own handguns. Forty-five States go further, allowing private citizens to carry concealed handguns for self-defense. Thus, the District’s sweeping firearm prohibitions are not only contrary to the Constitution, but also contrary to the reasoned judgment of every state legislature in the Nation.

Addressing the U.S. DOJ concerns that a postitive ruling would overturn federal laws, Texas thinks that most would be upheld (such as prohibitions against felons, insane persons, regulations on imports and restrictions on machine guns). Then they conclude their arguments;

But all 31 amici States agree that striking down the District of Columbia’s categorical ban on all operative firearms would pose no threat to these reasonable regulations. Instead, this case is a threshold case: at issue is whether the Second Amendment has any modern meaning whatsoever. Remaining faithful to the Constitution, there should be only one answer.

CONCLUSION
The Court should affirm the judgment of the court of appeals.
 
State's brief

Alan has said that Ted will be given 10 minutes of oral argument to present the state's arguments. That will be a nice counter-punch to the solicitor's argument on behalf of DOJ. Almost a complete under-card to the main event. It is only too bad that Heller has to yield time to Ted versus the solicitor who will probably be granted time separately.
 
The Law Enforcement Trainer's brief is good... there are several excellent (and perhaps occasionally snarky) points made. Here are some choice excerpts:

Petitioners’ prohibitions are now and always have been based on invidious prejudice that the law-abiding citizens of the District are incipient murderers.

Police carry handguns on duty and keep those guns for home protection for an obvious reason: the guns are essential, life-saving tools for protecting themselves, their families, and their communities. [...] (carefully analyzed, almost all the rationales for allowing police and security guards to possess handguns show that prohibition of handguns for other persons is illogical).

Petitioners and their amici cite various articles comparing the number of criminals killed by armed citizens with the number of deaths from gun misuse, and claim that since the former number is smaller than the latter, guns must be too dangerous for home defense.
Again, the comparison falsely combines two separate groups: law-abiding gun owners (who are disarmed by Petitioners’ law) and illegal criminal gun owners (who are not, and who perpetrate the vast majority of murders).
More fundamentally, counting the number of criminal deaths is a very inappropriate measure of anticrime utility. Amici would strongly oppose making
the number of justifiable homicides into a positive metric for the performance of particular police forces or individual officers.

It is true, and trivial, that homes with guns have more gun accidents, just as homes with lawnmowers have more lawnmower accidents.


I found the following argument to be novel, and may perhaps merit discussion here...

Robertson v. Baldwin declared “the carrying of concealed weapons” (presumably, handguns and knives) to be an exception to the Second Amendment. 165 U.S. 275, 281-82 (1897). The exception proves the rule: that a ban on all handguns in the home violates the Second Amendment. Similarly, Justice Holmes’ opinion in Patsone v. Pennsylvania upheld a state statute against legal aliens possessing long guns for hunting, because the statute “does not extend to weapons such as pistols that may be supposed to be needed occasionally for self-defence.” 232 U.S. 138, 143 (1914).

Robertson v. Baldwin was a US Supreme Court case wherein the 2A was mentioned only in passing as an example. The Patsone v. Pennsylvania decision seems strange...
 
34 amicus briefs so far in favor of Heller. Unless there are some not yet posted at http://www.scotusblog.com I guess we're done because the deadline is come and gone.

Anything else particularly exciting amongst them?

Acadmecis for the Second Amendment
Alaska Outdoor Council
American Legislative Exchange Council
Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
Buckeye Firearms Foundation, et al.
Cato Institute and Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm
Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Criminologists
Disabled Veterans for Self-Defense
Former Justice Department officials
Foundation for Free Expression
Foundation for Moral Law
GeorgiaCarry.org
Grass Roots of South Carolina
Gun Owners of America
Institute for Justice
International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association
Jeanette Moll
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
Joseph B. Scarnati, III, President Pro Tempore of the Pennsylvania Senate
Libertarian National Committee
Liberty Legal Institute
Major General John D. Altenburg, et al.
Members of Congress and Vice-President Cheney
National Rifle Association
Paragon Foundation
Pink Pistols
Rutherford Institute
Second Amendment Foundation
Southeastern Legal Foundation
State Firearms Associations
Texas and other states
Virginia1774.org
Women state legislators and academics

I'm loving the one from Texas and Other States as well as the one from Members of Congress and Vice-President Cheney .

Since this is inarguably a political process, this will give the justices some ammunition to support a pro-Heller ruling. Especially given the weak showing of states and congressmen in favor of DC.

1 month and 7 days and we'll start to get a feel as to whether or not we have a North Korean judge in the lot (I'm guessing we'll have at least 2, from other posts, but 7-2 would be awesome).

EDIT: And I did it again. At the top of a new page. Strictly by coincidence, I assure you. Welcome to page 20.
 
37 so far by my count

Acadmecis for the Second Amendment
Alaska Outdoor Council
American Center for Law and Justice
American Legislative Exchange Council
Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
Buckeye Firearms Foundation, et al.
Cato Institute and Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm
Center for Individual Freedom
Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Criminologists
Disabled Veterans for Self-Defense
Former Justice Department officials
Foundation for Free Expression
Foundation for Moral Law
GeorgiaCarry.org
Grass Roots of South Carolina
Gun Owners of America
Institute for Justice
International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association
Jeanette Moll
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
Joseph B. Scarnati, III, President Pro Tempore of the Pennsylvania Senate
Libertarian National Committee
Liberty Legal Institute
Major General John D. Altenburg, et al.
Members of Congress and Vice-President Cheney
Mountain States Legal Foundation
National Rifle Association
Paragon Foundation
Pink Pistols
Rutherford Institute
Second Amendment Foundation
Southeastern Legal Foundation
State Firearms Associations
Texas and other states
Virginia1774.org
Women state legislators and academics


mountain states and american center are late filers.

I think the filing deadline is based upon the postmark date and time, so west coast filers get more time yet.

Still haven't seen a prosecutor's brief........starting to worry.
 
Oral arguments in Heller scheduled for 18 March.

I believe they are scheduled to start at 10:00 AM. Does anyone know if they will be broadcast, and if so, where?
 
The supreme court does NOT allow broadcasts of it's proceedings. your just going to need to wait until the reporters come out and post their stories. Generally speaking the reporters that report these proceedings are good at it.
 
Over 650 pro-Heller people or groups

We have 37 briefs in favor of the D.C. Court's decision supporting the individual rights view.

Some of these briefs are under one name but include other persons or groups. So I created a list of who was represented by the Amicus briefs.

The briefs represent over 650 people or organizations, including;

250 Members of the House of Representatives
122 Women State Legislators
55 Members of the Senate
42 State Firearm Associations
32 Professors or educators
30 State goverments
29 California county district attorneys
12 Former Senior DOJ officials
11 Law Enforcement associations
7 Retired U.S. Army Generals (2-star to 4-star)

You can see the list at: http://dragon.hematite.com/Heller_Amici.htm
Note: It's sorted by the title or interest column, then by the name of the person or group.

Names of interest that have filed in support of Heller are;
Edwin Meese III - Attorney General under Reagan.
Robert H. Bork - SCOTUS nominee, DC Court of Appeals '82-'88
Joyce Lee Malcolm, Dr. - Professor of Legal History, George Mason
Gary Mauser - Professor Emeritus, Institute For Canadian Urban Research Studies
JOSEPH B. SCARNATI, III - President Pro Tempore-Pennsylvania State Senate
SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP - Citizen & former Texas state representative
 
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