CZ75 and M1911's what makes them so popular?

geetarman said:
I have looked at quite a few CZ pistols. Even the stainless steel versions show an amazing lack of care in final machining. Hold the gun up to a fluorescent tube and it is easy to see the crooked lines. My SP01 was so rough on the inside that shop towels/micro fiber cloths would hang up on some pretty poor machining cleanup on the rails. I have seen some older all steel CZ75 compacts that were really fine and I would be proud to own one. The SP01 and 97B that I have now are fully functional but not very pretty.
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Interesting.

Many of the guns available, nowadays, that aren't BLUED -- which is almost everything -- seem to have a bit less attention paid to the finish than was the case 15-20 years ago. Can you get a hi-gloss blued semi-auto from any gunmaker, nowadays? Maybe FN (with the Browning HP)?

I've had three CZ-75B Compacts --there weren't any pre-B compacts of any sort -- and they all seemed similar to my other CZs. The pre-Bs I had were horrible -- the oldest ones had an enamel-like finish that chipped easily; later ones were polycoated, and that finish has gotten progressively more durable over the years. CZ may have made blued (pre-B) models, but I've never found one that I knew came from the factory that way. If they were blued to be seen, I suspect they were done after purchase.

Two of my Compacts were satin nickel, and they looked just like my 85 Combat (which is also satin nickel). Hre's a photo of one of them. They were all traded away some years ago. (That's an extended slide release. It went with the gun; wish I had kept it.)

CZ-75BCompact-HiRezLeft.jpg


The third Compact was polycoated and the polycoated ones aren't as pretty as the nickel plated ones, but I would expect that. The polycoated gun are coated AFTER getting a parkerized finish and I don't think as much attention is paid to polishing before finishing on those models. Polycoat covers a lot of "sins."

Someone in this discussion mentioned that the polycoat finish doesn't hold up well. They must have a much-older CZ. The newest polycoat is very durable and resists holster wear much better than Glocks and as least as well as SIGs. (You can touch it up easily with matte black auto body touchup paint. Dupli-Color is a perfect match. I used the spray can, spray some on aluminum foil, and apply with a fine brush. The paint in the spray can is thinner.)

I've also had a couple of high-gloss blued CZs (one was a rare 85 Combat), and their finishes were very nice. Not as nice as some of the old Smith & Wess or Pythons, but nice. As I said earlier, I don't think most gunmakers even offer hi-gloss blue finishes any more. The CZ Custom Shop can get them, but they're a bit more expensive than other finishes -- probably reflecting the extra labor needed to get them ready for bluing. I prefer the satin nickel. I've had some hi-gloss stainless guns, two Sphinx guns immediately come to mind, and I think they're almost as much troubleto keep nice as a hi-gloss blued gun!)

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For mechanical beauty I like the 1911 and the P08, now one of those is a reliable gunfight gun, and the other is finicky and expensive and not made in any numbers to speak of today.

I like the looks of the CZ75 but it looks like the center of recoil is higher than the 1911, I don't know what the CZ75 has for trigger mechanism but the 1911 is perfectly symmetrical, which means the sear and hammer hooks are always aligned even after many thousands of rounds are fired.

I think the 1911 is far ahead of all other designs IF you expect a handgun to be a lifetime or even a heritage gun. If you think a gun should be replaced every time you get a new cell phone then the 1911 is too well designed and built.

Manufacturers have a notion that their products are life limited now, so customers will have to replace them often, an idea old gun makers were far too honest to have entertained.
 
HisSoldier said:
I like the looks of the CZ75 but it looks like the center of recoil is higher than the 1911, I don't know what the CZ75 has for trigger mechanism but the 1911 is perfectly symmetrical, which means the sear and hammer hooks are always aligned even after many thousands of rounds are fired.
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You can't tell by looks. The bore-axis of the CZ is about as low as many of the guns available, and lower than some (like the SIG.) Does it recoil more or less than a 1911? Don't know, but barrel flip is affected by many factors, not the least of them being shooter technique.

Regarding the trigger: it's hard for any DA gun to compete with a SA 1911 when you talk trigger crispness, but the CZ can be tuned to be pretty close. And folks who use them claim that the factory trigger of the CZ Tactical Sport, one of their top-line guns, is exquisite. I haven't been able to get my hands on one of those.

HisSoldier said:
I think the 1911 is far ahead of all other designs IF you expect a handgun to be a lifetime or even a heritage gun. If you think a gun should be replaced every time you get a new cell phone then the 1911 is too well designed and built.
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This second part of your comments has you talking about things that have little to do with the FUNCTIONAL EFFECTIVENESS of a gun.

The 1911 is probably no better than a Colt Peacemaker, a Luger, or a variety of other guns, if you're talking about lifetime (i.e. ongoing serviceability.) I suspect some Glocks might give most 1911s a good run and possibly require less upkeep. The "heritage" question only appeals to some folks. Others view their handguns as tools, not religious icons. Most quality service pistols made today will outlive a couple of owners

I like some 1911s. I like some CZs. MY FAVORITE GUNS -- both sold in a time of great (desperate, actually) financial need, were a SIG P-210-6 and a S&W Model 52-2. They both had triggers that were as good as some of the best 1911s and were just as (or more) accurate. These two "factory" (non-custom) guns may also have as much long-term value and collectibility as any "factory" 1911 made during the same period. Like a 1911, they have a certain "charisma."

Different strokes for different folks...

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I've owned 1911s in the past - heck, my issued watch sidearm in the Navy was a 1911A1, so old it rattled like a castanet. Every one of them in the armory were certifiable antiques, and every one of them worked perfectly.
Yes, there is a mystique about the 1911 being America's sidearm up until the pizza pistol was adopted in the mid '80s. Old Slab Sides is a natural pointer, soft recoiler, and an overbuilt mechanical platform that could take an awful lot of abuse before failing. I believe it was people OVER thinking the design later, that gave rise to the legacy of unreliable 1911s. Mil Spec ones have always worked well for me. I do remember about 30 years ago seeing a bizarre variant being sold at Jensen's Custom Ammunition in Tucson, a variant that had a squeeze cocker added to where the grip safety had been. Don't remember much else about it, might have been 35-40 years ago when I saw that one.
The CZ75 platform started it's campaign by also having the mystique of being a Cold War gun, something from "the other side". Versions brought in by returning servicemen often commanded premiums, IIRC. For those of you old enough to remember, this was when the Soviet Union was an enemy, and Commie guns weren't available everywhere like they are now.
Then people realized that the Czech engineers had really built an excellent sidearm with grip ergonomics that were simply outstanding, plus being reliable and accurate. Tanfolgio of Italy was one to capitalize on the "no patent" status of a gun from the other side of The Iron Curtain, and began making inexpensive clones. They were sold as the TA-90, TZ-75, Springfield P-9, and currently sell as the EAA Witness series. Good solid guns.
I prefer the originals, and while I agree the finish isn't the type of deep blue you find on a classic Colt Python, that the Python is not a combat handgun since Dirty Harry's Magnum Force, plus I can probably buy three CZs for the price of one Python.
As for internal finish, well, here's a peek into the internals of my newest CZ, the CZ P-09.











Note - these pics are from before Cajun Gun Works got a hold of it. ;)

Now look at these pictures, realize two things - one, the CZ P-09 has been adopted by at least one military force as their primary handgun, and two - not one service in the world carries Colt Pythons. The Python is a work of shootable art, beauty and function combined, but it is not exactly what I would call affordable for most people I know. That P-09 retails for under $500 at some places, and gives excellent fit and function, (comes with three backstraps - change Python's grip you have to buy new grips), and the largest flush fit magazine in 9mm in the industry so far.

But, I digress.

The Model 1911 and Model 1911A1 pistols are Americana personified, and excellent pistols in their own right.
The CZ-75 series pistols offer excellent ergonomics, reliability and accuracy at a price point that can be called affordable.

I just like guns that work every time.
 
To me it comes down to ergonomics! 1911s and CZ 75 pistols both feel great, shoot well, and have been around awhile (also something great about having a gun that's been around for 30+ years).
 
The CZ-75 is ergonomic. There's only one other pistol that feels better but no one will carry it -- P08 Luger.

As for the 1911, it's a good, simple gun that has endeared itself to the American public through decades of faithful service.
 
If we're talking about the American market, then I'm not sure I accept the premise that the CZ 75 is "so popular" -- and especially not when viewed alongside the 1911. It's definitely quite popular on gun forums, blogs, etc., but I rarely see them at the range, and they don't seem to draw much attention in the gun shops I visit. I guess gun buyers and range visitors in Central Texas could be outliers as a group, but that seems unlikely to me.
 
AustinTX said:
If we're talking about the American market, then I'm not sure I accept the premise that the CZ 75 is "so popular" -- and especially not when viewed alongside the 1911. It's definitely quite popular on gun forums, blogs, etc., but I rarely see them at the range, and they don't seem to draw much attention in the gun shops I visit. I guess gun buyers and range visitors in Central Texas could be outliers as a group, but that seems unlikely to me.
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I agree -- although CZs seem to be gaining a following. That said, however, your comments might also apply to 1911s, too.

Unless you shoot Bullseye, I suspect 1911s are seen more frequently in gun mags than at many gun ranges.

I used to go to the range a lot, and shot quite a bit of IDPA. 1911s weren't the most common gun in either of those environments. What I saw was generally a mish-mash of guns, varying from Glocks, to small revolvers, a few SIGs, a rare H&K, to a few strange weapons firing large caliber rounds (Desert Eagles and S&W 500 Magnum revolvers) and a variety of milsurp weapons, like CZ-52s! Lots of .22s, however.

It may be that some enthusiasts just go out on their own land and fire away and seldom make it to gun ranges: they don't need gun ranges.
 
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If you have to ask..... you have much to learn.:rolleyes:

The 1911 is tried and true, good ones work and work well. They are thin, and a pretty unique trigger that slides straight reward on a bow, rather than the popular fulcrum style triggers. You can tune them like a fine watch and run them like a ferarri. Everyone makes parts for them, they are the 52 chevy of the gun world... oldie but goodie, custom build one for yourself to your specs and live the dream. It is were modern and nostalgia butt heads...... my favorite thing I ever heard in regards to a 1911 is "It's like shaking hands with an old friend."

The CZ is an affordable dependable work horse. Comes in many different flavors also, but even the base model is amazingly robust, strong, accurate, and easy to shoot. Step up to one of the SAO match models with a tuned custom trigger and you have a sleek and slim over engineered muscle car of a firearm, that won't let you down.
 
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IMHO neither one is really popular outside gun enthusiast which is the vast minority of gun owners.

I would say that 90% of the time I take a CZ out of the range bag and shoot it people ask me what I am shooting and know very little about them when I say CZ. Maybe 50% of the have heard of them but most have never seen one let alone shot one. I can look in every single gun shop in my small KY town and there will not be a single CZ on the shelf. I can find lots of other guns in the same price point but no CZs. If drive up to Lexington, not a big city, I can find them at Bud's guns shop. :D They are good guns and they have a vocal following but it is not as large as forums like this would have you believe.

On the 1911 is it more of a Cult following. Everyone knows what it is. Some people own one but a lot more people own a Glock, Smith & Wesson or XD these days. When I hit the range I might see one other shooter with a 1911. I can guarantee that I will see a Glock, Smith & Wesson or XD etc... Again there are a lot of people who love them, like me, and we own a lot of them and talk a lot about them but we are still a minority and are dwarfed when it comes to actual ownership. Until fairly recently there were not that many manufacturers of 1911s. It has been in the last 5 years that it has really blown up and I attribute that to the 100 year anniversary. Which moved a lot of people to finally get that 1911 they always wanted.

I like both and am a fan of both but I do not think that they are as popular and widely accepted as we would be led to believe. The 1911 has never been really popular outside the US. The CZ 75 was used a lot as a LEO/Military gun behind the Iron Curtain, but not in the USSR/Russia as the CZ marketers would have you believe. It is not a accepted as say the BHP which conversely never been a huge seller here.

YMMV
 
I have both, and the CZ 75 would be the one i take to the range most. I would have the 1911 more as an historic firearm.
 
They are somewhat popular as range toys. Neither are at all common as working guns. I think both are over rated, but I can understand why the 1911 is popular with it's long history in the US military. The CZ is I think more popular on the internet than the real world. I tried them, didn't care for it and don't know a single person who owns one. I only know of 1 gun shop within 60 miles that even carries them, and you'll only see a handful there even though they have 15,000 guns in inventory.
 
Both are proven battle guns. I have a hard time picking a favorite. But If I had to, I pick the CZ. Capacity over Caliber.
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I like CZs, too. That said, I think most folks will be hard pressed to show that the CZ is a "proven battle gun." CZs have certainly seen a lot of use by small police forces around the world (but primarily on the African continent. ) The South African state police used them; not sure about the SA Army.

As best I can tell, only the Israelis MIGHT have used them much in combat. I'm pretty sure CZs have seen combat in the Middle East on both sides of the battle lines, but not as a given military's issued sidearm.

CZs are have just started to be adopted by a few militaries around the world -- and some of those groups are using the P-09, a subtly different design (but with the same great ergonomics.) Even the Czech military didn't use them until relatively recently. Before the fall of the Soviet Union, none of the Warsaw Pact members used 9mm as a standard round...
 
They're popular in the REAL WORLD, but other guns are much more popular.

In the IDPA context, the World Championship in 2012 (the only one I could find weapons use figures for in a brief search), there were 3 SIGs and 3 CZs. There were 142 Glocks, and an array of 100 1911s, made by maybe 15 different 1911 makers. If I remember correctly, there was an even bigger % of Glocks at the US IDPA Nationals this year, and a few more CZs.

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I've not shot IDPA for several years, now, but SIGs were never really all that common in the matches I shot in or worked as a safety officer. Neither were Berettas. Ditto H&Ks. (I think I saw more CZs than H&Ks here in NC, and there are darned few dealers selling CZs.)

I suspect guns are bit like watches: some folks like Timex watches: they're just as accurate as the $10K Rollex or Omega and cost a fraction as much. Others like the craftsmanship of the fine Swiss watches, and are willing to pay for it. (Sort of like a top-line custom gun -- they're paying for refinement.) Do the fine watches keep time better than the cheap Timex watches; probably not -- but they offer other rewards (and a certain snob appeal.)

Nowadays, it seems to be GLOCK, S&W (M&Ps) and a few 1911s that are dominating the IDPA world. I suspect you'll see a preponderence of 1911-based guns in IPSC/USPSA, as well as a lot of Glocks, and a growing number of S&Ws. What does this tell us? Only that WHERE you shoot tells you what can be seen in that venue -- and not much else.

Are CZs really popular? Probably not, but they are far more popular than they were in the late 1990s, when I got my first CZs -- and they seem to be gaining in popularity. Its just the past few years that people even KNOW what a CZ is! CZ is still a long way from pushing Glock off the top spot, and unless they build a factory in the U.S., they're unlikely to be widely used by LEO organizations -- which seemed to be Glock's key to success.

If you like CZs, you should check out the new Sphinx SDP; its a basic CZ-like design, but refined to the semi-custom gun level at the factory. Marvelous shooter. The Sphinx SDP does the "CZ thing" better than CZ does, but costs more.

While costing more, the Sphinx SDP is still less costly than a CZ Custom Shop gun that is quite similar. The CZ Custom Shop SDP, which is based on the CZ compact design. costs quite a bit more than the Sphinx. I don't know which of the two is the better buy or better gun. That's probably like comparing fine swiss watches -- way over MY pay grade.

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There seems to plenty on this forum own them, and it would be very popular here.
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That is my point. This is a forum that represents a very small % of gun owners in this country and the world. If you look at the total membership here it is small compared to the number of gun owners in the US and there are international member here. ;)

Then look a little closer and you will see the majority of traffic is driven by about 10% of the membership. Any and every CZ discussion will have Walt Sherrill and I in it. LOL Both of us have been shooting them for over 10 years. We know their history, he knows it better than I do, and in general speak positively about them but our ability to talk them up distorts their true popularity IMHO.

I agree with Walt in that they are growing. I went to a CCDW class in KY last weekend. I had my stuff in a CZ range bag and someone asked me what is a CZ. One of the older gentlemen said he had an old 75 but knew nothing about it. I did not have one with me but I talked a bit with them about them.

I can remember when you could get them for right around $300 NIB depending on the model. They are good guns and I am glad to see them growing in popularity but I do think their popularity is often overstated.

Again back to the 1911 it is a very popular gun in gun games but that is such a small percentage of people who shoot or own guns. Dominance in IDPA does not mean dominance in the real world market. Again outside the US outside of gun games they are not popular. They have been adopted by only a handful of military or police outside the US. I would argue even in the US handgun market they are still greatly in the minority.
 
WVsig said:
I can remember when you could get them for right around $300 NIB depending on the model.
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I got my first CZ at a local gun show... for $275. A Turkish contract overrun model. As the seller was doing the paperwork he said. "Ooops. We had it priced wrong. I'm selling it to you, because that was what we agreed to, but you're getting it for our cost." Good guy.

I got a CZ-40B for $325, shipped to my FFL. Great gun. I just wasn't all that interested in .40 S&W at that time. I like it a bit better now. About a year after I bought it I sold it -- for a bit more than I paid. I wish I had kept it, as that may be one of the best CZs.

I've paid more, but never as much as I see them selling for, nowadays. The only real consolation is that many of the competing guns cost even more.
 
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