CZ P-09

Cyanide971 said:
Okay, I'll bite and open the can of worms.

You may have opened a can of worms, but I'm not sure they're the same worms we've been talking about. The issue wasn't so much DA vs. SA, but the effect of transitioning from DA to SA, as required when using decocker-equipped guns. Your targets don't really ADDRESS the DA/SA transition, and I couldn't tell much from your targets -- especially the order in which rounds were fired.

I'm not sure the difference between first and second shots is as important as picking the SD right rounds for the gun you carry/keep in your home - but I think both the DA/SA transition and SD/HD ammo choices are issues more often talked about than addressed.
 
The issue wasn't so much DA vs. SA, but the effect of transitioning from DA to SA, as required when using decocker-equipped guns. Your targets don't really ADDRESS the DA/SA transition, and I couldn't tell much from your targets -- especially the order in which rounds were fired.

To be honest I'd say that's your opinion, and an opinion shared by a large number of people, but I'm not sure we all agreed on what the "issue" was. My personal experience is that in actuality it isn't the transition that's the problem, it's the DA first shot itself because most people don't take the time to truly work on that first shot (and you need to devote magazines worth of practice to that a shot that is ~1/15 of the shots you'd fire). If I shoot a DA/SA pistol either in DA or in SA for the first shot, the second shot is still the same reset and trigger weight regardless of that first shot. That's how I think of it, a DA shot followed by a series of resets and trigger presses, I don't think of it as a transition. When I've watched people closely it isn't that they can master the DA shot and then somehow are completely thrown by the SA shot, it's that the DA shot is the challenge and then the following SA shot is okay because it's not the heavy weight or long length of pull (to be fair a poor performance on the first shot can unnerve the shooter so that the next shot, and maybe more shots afterwards, are also poor).

I shot DA/SA for literally years and back when I was doing it I didn't have a transition problem and I could get my DA and SA shots to be very close to what I could do with say a stock safe-action pistol (to be fair I tweaked the DA first shot to usually 8.5-9 lb.). So if I didn't have problems why did I switch? Frankly, speed. I was faster with my striker fired safe-action pistols and the DA/SA pistols I was using (HK P series pistols) had very long resets. I was spending more time manipulating the trigger and it showed on a timer. Also, during training courses of hundreds of rounds by the end of the class I would throw the occasional DA shot because I was just tired. I realized there were other systems that I determined were just as safe (in my own estimation) that didn't incur those problems.

I will say this though, back when I shot DA/SA or DA revolver more often my fundamentals were honestly better. I was focusing on that smooth trigger press more because I had to and I was dry firing more because I had to in order to maintain the same level of accuracy and precision. Striker fired pistols have admittedly made me lazy and I am thinking about buying a case of 38 special to get back to basics for a while.

I'm not sure the difference between first and second shots is as important as picking the SD right rounds for the gun you carry/keep in your home

I've spent hours looking at both video ballistic testing online as well as reading articles about the performance of different self defense ammo. My opinion, which is worth what people pay for it, is that any modern self defense ammunition will generally perform well. I've seen people get into heated debates about Gold Dot vs. HST vs. Ranger T vs. etc. I really think a lot more is made of it than is necessary.
 
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TunnelRat said:
My personal experience is that in actuality it isn't the transition that's the problem, it's the DA first shot itself because most people don't take the time to truly work on that first shot (and you need to devote magazines worth of practice to that a shot that is ~1/15 of the shots you'd fire).

I don't think we're disagreeing on this point. I also think what you describe above is EXACTLY why people have problems with the DA/SA transition. I use the term DA/SA transition to describe when you notice the problem. The slightly longer and heavier trigger pull of the first shot -- which the shooter may not be ready for, is compounded by a shorter and lighter second trigger pull, which may come sooner than anticipated...

Note: I love CZs with tuned crisp triggers, and when I can shoot them from cocked and locked (ala IDPA's Enhanced Service Pistol division) I really enjoy it. When I shot IDPA Stock Service Pistol (which required hammer down starts for safety-equipped guns). I almost always had better results using my Glock 34. While I shot the CZ more frequently, I didn't spend as much time on the DA/SA transition as I should have - I preferred C&L. I always felt I did better with the Glock 34 because of the consistent trigger for all shots fired. Perhaps it was something else?

TunnelRat]I've spent hours looking at both video ballistic testing online as well as reading articles about the performance of different self defense ammo. My opinion, which is worth what people pay for it, is that any modern self defense ammunition will generally perform well. I've seen people get into heated debates about Gold Dot vs. HST vs. Ranger T vs. etc. I really think a lot more is made of it than is necessary.

While YOU may have spent a lot of time looking and comparing SD ammo -- and I've done some of that too -- I think the way the ammo is tested and evaluated nowadays is still hit and miss.

I would agree that most quality self defense ammo will generally perform well IN FBI BALLISTIC GEL, but we have to keep in mind that BALLISTIC GEL is a only simulated human tissue, and not a simulated human body. People actually shot in shoot-outs aren't big blobs of skeleton-less gelatin, and they come to the fracas dressed in a variety of materials, often layered, which can affect bullet penetration and expansion.

Some of the folks doing ammo tests do try to address this by adding layers of cloth on the front of the gel block -- but there aren't any standard for those extra materials, as best I can tell.

I'd like to see testing done using a different type of ballistic media that includes various types and layers of clothing, tissue analogs (ballistic gel) bone analogs (to represent the ribs or the spine) and even simulated organs. (Thin sheets of a bone-like material could be used in the gel, for example.)

If we could see ammo evaluated more rigorously in that way, I think we might start to see some significant ammo performance differences.
 
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That I did better with the Glock 34, I felt, was due to the consistent trigger for all shots fired. Perhaps it was something else?

I think it has to do with the fact that the trigger pull on a Glock 34 is both lighter and shorter than the DA pull on a CZ and as you yourself said:

I didn't spend as much time on the DA/SA transition as I should have

I will maintain that, and again this is just an opinion, the DA pull is the main culprit of issues for shooters of DA/SA pistol, from my experience.

I believe both in this thread, and I know in other threads, I have stated that the amount of practice required to both become proficient and maintain proficiency with DA/SA firearms is greater than that of a SAO or striker fired safe-action pistol, and in my opinion by a wide margin. At some point the shooter has to determine if that additional time (and money on ammunition) is warranted and in my case I reached a point where I did not think it was warranted.

People actually shot in shootouts aren't big blobs of skeleton-less gelatin, and they come dressed to the fracas in a variety of materials, often layered (which can affect bullet penetration and expansion).

That's why denim is often used in addition to the gel. The gel isn't mean to be a 1:1 comparison to a human. Besides testing on pig carcasses (and people will find fault with that too) I have no desire to shoot another human being to test ammo or even the deceased, nor do you. So we do the best we can. What ballistic gel is meant to do is average the resistance a bullet will encounter when traveling through a human body.

Some of the folks doing ammo tests do try to address this by adding layers of cloth on the front of the gel block -- but there aren't any standard for those extra materials, as best I can tell.

The I.W.B.A. used to use 4 layers of denim and most manufacturers of self defense cartridges will show results for both bare gelatin and gelatin with denim.

I'd like to see testing done using a different type of ballistic media that includes various types and layers of clothing, tissue analogs (ballistic gel) bone analogs (to represent the ribs or the spine) and even simulated organs. (Thin sheets of a bone-like material could be used in the gel, for example.)

Again, the resistance from ballistics gel is meant to be an average of the material you describe. Don't forget that there are also internal organs that are relatively easy to pass through. It's very hard to create a true replica of the human body composition, and I imagine would be relatively expensive as well.

If we could see ammo evaluated more rigorously in that way, I think we might start to see some significant ammo performance differences.

Honestly, I think we've gone just about as far as we can go currently. Unless we dramatically increase the power, the only option is to change the bullet design. For decades people have been selling the wonder bullet in much a way that snake oil salesmen sold their tonics, with anecdotes and carefully chosen examples. As of yet none have seen widespread adoption, usually due to the fact that they may cause more tearing or heightened expansion, but then cannot achieve adequate penetration.

However, I think we're really drifting at this point and this might be where we should start a different thread.
 
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You may have opened a can of worms, but I'm not sure they're the same worms we've been talking about. The issue wasn't so much DA vs. SA, but the effect of transitioning from DA to SA, as required when using decocker-equipped guns. Your targets don't really ADDRESS the DA/SA transition, and I couldn't tell much from your targets -- especially the order in which rounds were fired.

I'm not sure the difference between first and second shots is as important as picking the SD right rounds for the gun you carry/keep in your home - but I think both the DA/SA transition and SD/HD ammo choices are issues more often talked about than addressed.

Walt, sorry for any confusion by my post. The order that I fired were all of the shots in single action first, then double action from the respective yard lines. I posted the pictures in response to what Limnophile said earlier concerning/doubting the old statement of being able to practice to get your DA shot results as close to SA as possible.

My first serious exposure to extensive pistol shooting was with the M9, so my initial several years I became very well versed in the world of decockers and the DA/SA transition, and then I dove into the world of true DAO which, surprisingly enough I feel I consistently shoot better than a constant light pull (E.G. striker-fire/SAO).

I do whole heartedly agree though as well, with choosing proper SD ammunition and more so, practicing with it, and practicing extensively. But as has been brought up, perhaps we should start a new thread concerning that... ;-)

My personal experience is that in actuality it isn't the transition that's the problem, it's the DA first shot itself because most people don't take the time to truly work on that first shot (and you need to devote magazines worth of practice to that a shot that is ~1/15 of the shots you'd fire). If I shoot a DA/SA pistol either in DA or in SA for the first shot, the second shot is still the same reset and trigger weight regardless of that first shot. That's how I think of it, a DA shot followed by a series of resets and trigger presses, I don't think of it as a transition. When I've watched people closely it isn't that they can master the DA shot and then somehow are completely thrown by the SA shot, it's that the DA shot is the challenge.....

I will say this though, back when I shot DA/SA or DA revolver more often my fundamentals were honestly better. I was focusing on that smooth trigger press more because I had to and I was dry firing more because I had to in order to maintain the same level of accuracy and precision. Striker fired pistols have admittedly made me lazy and I am thinking about buying a case of 38 special to get back to basics for a while.
+1!

Just from personal experience at the couple of ranges I frequent at home, out of the several regulars I see who also have a DA/SA pistol or revolver, not one of them practices their double action shot. It's either insert mag, release slide, and start shooting or, manually cocking the hammer back on their revolvers for every shot. But on the rare occasion that any of them shoot DA, it doesn't last long since they don't like the results they get with hitting all over the target, and nowhere near their point of aim.
 
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My P09 and P07 are on the way i plan to carry the p07 cocked and locked and use the safety on the p09 in competition. I have my concerns about the thin safety as well. Are there after market options? It seems CZ made it too inline with the slide. Rather than having a little notch or something to give your thumb pad more surface area.
 
bigmatt,

while shooting my decocker equipped guns (P-01 and Sphinx SDP compact) I sometimes activate the decocker accidentally. The P-01 especially since the decocker lever faces to the rear of the gun.

Interesting. I haven't heard of inadvertent decocker activation being a problem, but I suppose this is a less critical error than inadvertently activating (or forgetting to deactivate) a safety lock. Does the accidental decocking occur because you are used to safety-equipped guns, or because of your grip?

Have you ever experienced or witnessed a manual decocking ND in competition?

Cyanide,

Okay, I'll bite and open the can of worms.

These were fired all DA, decocking after every shot, and then a separate group, all SA. True, this is slow fire in a controlled range environment, but I have also done countless timed live-fire drills and qualifications that involved drawing from the holster and placing effective rounds on target through the last couple of decades.

Now I am NOT saying that shooting DA is as accurate as SA, but I strongly disagree with any notion that it isn't, and cannot be, an effective, accurate first (or subsequent) shot when under stress.

My data were obtained from dry firing at a laser target. Any pistol, of course, is not cocked after a dry fire 'shot,' because there is no slide recoil to cock the hammer or striker.

I don't think your experience and my research results are contrary, because you are saying you can shoot effectively DA/SA, while I'm saying the SA-only shooting is more precise that DA-only shooting. The difference in the two modes is easily discernible, but it may have no practical effect in useage for one carrying Condition 2.

For example, assume my SA-only precision is 1.00 and my DA-only precision is 2.00; ie, my 5-shot groups are twice as big, linearly, in DA-only than they are in SA-only dry firing. This is roughly what I attain; someone with greater skill or a tuned trigger may see a smaller difference, but my hypothesis is that a difference will always exist, no matter the shooter, in favor of SA firing given a large enough sample size.

With my observed results, if I fire 5-shot strings DA/SA, my expected linear precision is:

0.800(1.00) + 0.200(2.00) = 1.20.

A twofold (100%) difference in linear precision is easy to discern without needing to resort to statistical analysis, but a 20% increase won't be, in my guestimate, immediately obvious. The expected difference (relative to SA-only) dwindles with a larger shot string. Given a 15-shot string fired DA/SA the expected precision is:

0.933(1.00) + 0.067(2.00) = 1.07.

I think extensive sampling would be needed to discern an increase this small.

Walt,

You may have opened a can of worms, but I'm not sure they're the same worms we've been talking about. The issue wasn't so much DA vs. SA, but the effect of transitioning from DA to SA, as required when using decocker-equipped guns. Your targets don't really ADDRESS the DA/SA transition, and I couldn't tell much from your targets -- especially the order in which rounds were fired.

To be fair to Cyanide, my observations say nothing about the transition between DA and SA while firing DA/SA, as my efforts were confined to DA-only and SA-only in separate strings -- no transition involved. I do, however, assume the need to transition likely means my theoretical combined calculations to estimate DA/SA string precisions are underestimated to some degree.

TunnelRat and Walt,

You both have extensive experience shooting DA/SA; whereas, I have none. The fact that you both admit to the initial DA shot being a challenge, especially if you don't practice it alot, validates th decision of this relative handgun newcomer to opt for Condition 1 carry in order, in part, to avoid that challenge.
 
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Walt,

While YOU may have spent a lot of time looking and comparing SD ammo -- and I've done some of that too -- I think the way the ammo is tested and evaluated nowadays is still hit and miss.

I would agree that most quality self defense ammo will generally perform well IN FBI BALLISTIC GEL, but we have to keep in mind that BALLISTIC GEL is a only simulated human tissue, and not a simulated human body. People actually shot in shoot-outs aren't big blobs of skeleton-less gelatin, and they come to the fracas dressed in a variety of materials, often layered, which can affect bullet penetration and expansion.

Some of the folks doing ammo tests do try to address this by adding layers of cloth on the front of the gel block -- but there aren't any standard for those extra materials, as best I can tell.

I'd like to see testing done using a different type of ballistic media that includes various types and layers of clothing, tissue analogs (ballistic gel) bone analogs (to represent the ribs or the spine) and even simulated organs. (Thin sheets of a bone-like material could be used in the gel, for example.)

If we could see ammo evaluated more rigorously in that way, I think we might start to see some significant ammo performance differences.

I think many misunderstand the purpose of using calibrated 10% ballistic gel or the meaning of the IWBA's minimum penetration criteria for bare and heavily clithed gel, 12.5 and 13.0 inches, respectively. (Note: The FBI adopted with IWBA testing protocol and penetration criteria in the wake of the Quantico workshop in 1988, and they expanded the testing protocol to include barriers, and slightly modified the penetration critera.)

As you note, ballistic gel is not meant to simulate a human body, but only human soft tissue. But, the IWBA derived its penetration criteria based on correlations between a round's performance in standardized gel vs performance in live human bodies (most IWBA members were battlefield surgeons, ER trauma surgeons, or medical examiners). Thus, a round that penetrates gel 12.5 inches will almost certainly penetrate a human body significantly less deeply.

Without resorting to measuring, I'm guessing my breadth, outer shoulder to outer shoulder, is 20 inches, and my depth, chest to back, is 8 inches. Thus, a side shot that penetrates me 10 inches should eadily reach vital organs, and a frontal shot only needs to penetrate 4 inches should suffice. The IWBA criteria take into account variability in shot geometry, bad guy size, the presence of hard tissues, and the relative performance of a bullet in gel and a body.

Furthermore, the IWBA ammo spec requires a maximum penetration standard deviation and a minimal sample size. Penetration SD is a measure of expansion reliability, and they state a sample SD of 0.6 inch should be attainable with premium JHPs. Thus, a spec of a min average penetration of 12.5 inches with a max SD of 0.6 inch means that you can be 95% confident that 95% of your shots will penetrate the gel at least 10.7 inches. In short, the IWBA is saying 10.7 inches in gel should be enough to get the job done on a human body. The takehome lesson -- be very careful about shaving the penetration criteria.

As you can see, there is no need for more detailed testing to account for hard tissues, as the original IWBA criteria already account for this. In fact, the FBI-required testing of various barriers should give further confidence in choosing a round that will penetrate well even after hitting something hard.
 
LImnophile said:
Furthermore, the IWBA ammo spec requires a maximum penetration standard deviation and a minimal sample size. Penetration SD is a measure of expansion reliability, and they state a sample SD of 0.6 inch should be attainable with premium JHPs. Thus, a spec of a min average penetration of 12.5 inches with a max SD of 0.6 inch means that you can be 95% confident that 95% of your shots will penetrate the gel at least 10.7 inches. In short, the IWBA is saying 10.7 inches in gel should be enough to get the job done on a human body. The takehome lesson -- be very careful about shaving the penetration criteria.

Your response was a good write-up. I've only cited a small part of it, here. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

You write, "you can be 95% confident that 95% of your shots will penetrate the gel at least 10.7 inches. In short, the IWBA is saying 10.7 inches in gel should be enough to get the job done on a human body." You may be right, but I'd argue that getting the job done on the human body may not be that simple, especially if you want THAT human body to stop shooting at you. Most of these analyses seem to be based on best case scenarios.

On the other hand, I've seen very little attention paid to how accurately some of these rounds can be used -- which addresses more than just the innate accuracy of the round, but also evaluates how well a shooter can fire the round). What role does the gun actually play in the results, or barrel length. Ballistics performance alone addresses part of that question, but most of that is measured from test barrels.

I also think many shooters practice with one round but carry another. They'll shoot a box or two of the "good" stuff at the range to be sure it functions well in their weapon, but don't really stringently evaluate their accuracy with their carry ammo. (Guys who role their own probably do a much better job of evaluating their carry loads.) If you have to use more rounds because you shoot it less well, how does that affect the choice of ammo?

I'd prefer 'real-world results' if they were available, but real-world results are almost impossible to properly evaluate: 1) there aren't THAT many shootings that are properly assessed/measured, 2) the specific loads used are seldom reported, 3) the scenarios in which they occur aren't always known or reported [time of day, distance between parties, indoors or outdoors, weather, if out of doors, etc.], and 4) the proficiency and experience of the shooter is almost never recorded (or known).

That last factor may be the most critical one in any of these evaluations -- and it may be far more important than the gun or the loads used. We just don't know.

You and others here seem to feel our current SD ammo testing standards are good enough -- arguably the best that we can come up with -- and you may be right, but I'm not convinced.
 
I also think many shooters practice with one round but carry another. They'll shoot a box or two of the "good" stuff at the range to be sure it functions well in their weapon, but don't really stringently evaluate their accuracy with their carry ammo. (Guys who role their own probably do a much better job of evaluating their carry loads.) If you have to use more rounds because you shoot it less well, how does that affect the choice of ammo?

The key is to try to find "practice" ammo that has similar accuracy, point of impact, and recoil to the self defense ammo you choose. I've actually found that the boxes of carry ammo I shoot seem more consistent in their accuracy than the cheap range ammo I use, maybe better QC? Either way I make sure to do the POI test. You are right that if the ammo has so much bang that it's hard to shoot its effectiveness is limited.

You and others here seem to feel our current SD ammo testing standards are good enough -- arguably the best that we can come up with -- and you may be right, but I'm not convinced

Few things in life are convincing. Even students in Physics classes where there are known laws of motion often need to see them firsthand to believe them. There's nothing wrong with that either. Expecting better and being skeptical is how civilization got to where it is today.
 
A huge +1 to what you said concerning SD ammo practice, and were quoted by TunnelRat, Walt.

It's pricey I know, but I always seem to pick up a couple of "extra" boxes of my preferred carry ammo and use it at the range for the exact reason you brought up. Thank goodness for online distributors like SG Ammo, Ammunition Depot, etc., or I'd go broke fast!

And now that Freedom Munitions has 135gr RNFP that is close to the profile of my carry ammo, it makes it easier keeping that balance of same POA/POI, as the first box I tried mimicked my Critical Duty. Now to see if subsequent boxes maintain consistency.....
 
Interesting. I haven't heard of inadvertent decocker activation being a problem, but I suppose this is a less critical error than inadvertently activating (or forgetting to deactivate) a safety lock. Does the accidental decocking occur because you are used to safety-equipped guns, or because of your grip?

Really a little of both. I place my strong hand thumb up on the safety on my Cz's just like I would shooting a 1911,2011, or BHP. My weak hand tucks up under the strong hand for a good solid grip with both thumbs pointing forward. I use the same basic grip even on striker fired guns lacking a safety. I owned either striker fired or safety equipped guns for years before I bought my first decocker equipped gun. On my P-01 I've now modified my grip slightly to have my strong hand thumb just under the decocking lever.


Have you ever experienced or witnessed a manual decocking ND in competition?

Never to both. I practiced manually lowering the hammer for a month or two on an empty gun. Then moved to doing with a round chambered at the range. Now it is second nature for me to manually lower the hammer.
 
On my P-01 I've now modified my grip slightly to have my strong hand thumb just under the decocking lever.

Hmm. I've been having some odd issues with my P-01 on occasion and I've wondered if what you're describing is possible. I might have to test this out. Thanks for the tip!
 
Walt,

You write, "you can be 95% confident that 95% of your shots will penetrate the gel at least 10.7 inches. In short, the IWBA is saying 10.7 inches in gel should be enough to get the job done on a human body." You may be right, but I'd argue that getting the job done on the human body may not be that simple, especially if you want THAT human body to stop shooting at you. Most of these analyses seem to be based on best case scenarios.

I apologize for the colloquialism "get the job done." By that I meant penetrate deep enough to be highly likely to reach vital tissue in a human target regardless of shot geometry. Whether or not the adequately penetrating bullet hits vital tissue, of course, depends primarily on the shot placement, which is almost entirely a function of the shooter's skill, but that's an aspect of handgun wounding effectiveness that has little to do with selecting effective ammunition (although a year and a half ago the FBI acknowledged that people shoot 9 Luger more accurately than .40 S&W).

The other factor that can affect bullet trajectory inside a target is deflection from hitting hard tissue. .22 LR rounds are notorious for bouncing around like a pinball after striking bone; thus, a well placed shot aimed at a bad guy's heart could be deflected by bone and miss vital tissue. Deflection is less likely with a bigger bullet. I can't recall any terminal ballistics guru focusing on this, but the potential for deflection (and poor shot placement) is a good reason to keep pulling the trigger until the threat is neutralized.

On the other hand, I've seen very little attention paid to how accurately some of these rounds can be used -- which addresses more than just the innate accuracy of the round, but also evaluates how well a shooter can fire the round). What role does the gun actually play in the results, or barrel length. Ballistics performance alone addresses part of that question, but most of that is measured from test barrels.

The IWBA's ammo spec boilerplate (I wish I could find the link to it) is intended to have each department conduct penetration testing to find an optimal round for the specific gun carried. Thus, a backup gun, even if the same caliber as the duty gun, might function from a terminal ballistics perspective with a different round.

I also think many shooters practice with one round but carry another. They'll shoot a box or two of the "good" stuff at the range to be sure it functions well in their weapon, but don't really stringently evaluate their accuracy with their carry ammo. (Guys who role their own probably do a much better job of evaluating their carry loads.) If you have to use more rounds because you shoot it less well, how does that affect the choice of ammo?

As TunnelRat says above, the key to cost-effective range shooting (for those of us who don't roll our own) is to find a FMJ round that has equivalent exterior ballistics of your chosen self-defense round. For example, I like to carry Federal Tactical 147-gr HST in my 75 Compact, because it's a good penetrator and expands reliably (the IWBA recommends choosing heavy for caliber for good penetration). But, the Federal American Eagle 147-gr Flat Nose FMJ has the same exterior ballistics as the HST for a fraction of the price.

The IWBA was concerned only with terminal ballistics. General exterior ballistics is something one typically considers before selecting the pistol caliber.

I'd prefer 'real-world results' if they were available, but real-world results are almost impossible to properly evaluate: 1) there aren't THAT many shootings that are properly assessed/measured, 2) the specific loads used are seldom reported, 3) the scenarios in which they occur aren't always known or reported [time of day, distance between parties, indoors or outdoors, weather, if out of doors, etc.], and 4) the proficiency and experience of the shooter is almost never recorded (or known).

That last factor may be the most critical one in any of these evaluations -- and it may be far more important than the gun or the loads used. We just don't know.

You obviously know that the validity of street data is a myth. The IWBA's terminal standardized ballistics testing protocol allows for meaningful comparisons between rounds.

Martin Fackler formed and headed the now-dissolved IWBA, and he was the father of scientific terminal ballistics science. He was a Colonel in the US Army Medical Corps, a battlefield surgeon in Vietnam, and the director of the Army's Wound Ballistics Lab. He standardized terminal ballistics testing, identified the overwhelming importance of penetration, and identified the importance of fragmentation in military rifle calibers. He was a key participant in the FBI's Quantico workshop on handgun wounding effectiveness. After the FBI adopted the IWBA criteria with minor modifications and elaborations in regard to barrier penetration, Fackler not long afterwards dissolved the IWBA, mission accomplished.

But Fackler et al. were focused on terminal ballistics, and for a handgun penetration über alles, with reliable expansion being important, too, and a big hole being better than a small hole.

Exterior ballistics is a separate issue, but nowhere near as important as terminal ballistics for self-defense distances.

Round accuracy, meaning finding a round that is rather optimally tuned to the pistol, is another factor, but probably not critical for self defense.

Round reliability is important -- it has to feed, fire, and eject reliably when the trigger is pulled. If I fire my carry round 59 times without failure in a given magazine, nonparametric statistics tells me I can be 95% confident that that round/magazine/pistol combination is at least 95% reliable. Then I can practice with the cheaper ammo that is exteriorly ballistically equivalent.

Shooter skill is another, separate, but vital issue. No way around this but to practice.

You and others here seem to feel our current SD ammo testing standards are good enough -- arguably the best that we can come up with -- and you may be right, but I'm not convinced.

The statistician who founded the Stats Department at my alma mater, George Box, is known for saying, "All models are wrong, but some models are useful." All models are simplifications of reality; thus, they are, by definition, wrong. I think Fackler's testing protocol, as elaborated by the FBI, is very useful. A diamond can always be polished, so I'll admit thete is room for improvement, but sooner or later a point is reached where further polishing doesn't result in noticeable improvements. For example, the FBI ballistic gel model is quite general. It can be refined by makng it more specific, for example, by embedding rib bones in the gel. But, specificity is typically gained only by sacrificing generality or increasing cost dramatically. My opinion is what exists now is fairly optimal.
 
bigmatt,

Really a little of both. I place my strong hand thumb up on the safety on my Cz's just like I would shooting a 1911,2011, or BHP. My weak hand tucks up under the strong hand for a good solid grip with both thumbs pointing forward. I use the same basic grip even on striker fired guns lacking a safety. I owned either striker fired or safety equipped guns for years before I bought my first decocker equipped gun. On my P-01 I've now modified my grip slightly to have my strong hand thumb just under the decocking lever.

I've never held a decocker-equipped CZ, but I've looked at pictures and thought the decocker looked to be awkwardly located. I, too, have my thumb ride the safety lever, and the decocker looks to not accomodate such a grip.

I wish the CZ safety lever was more ergonomic, as my thumb rides the safety on a 1911 with far more comfort.

Never to both. I practiced manually lowering the hammer for a month or two on an empty gun. Then moved to doing with a round chambered at the range. Now it is second nature for me to manually lower the hammer.

So it seems that Walt never having experienced or seen such an ND can't reasonably be attributed to him leading a charmed life.
 
So it seems that Walt never having experienced or seen such an ND can't reasonably be attributed to him leading a charmed life.

Well I'm not sure we have any kind of decent sample size here, but what anecdotal evidence we do have points to it not being a problem I agree. I'm not sure anyone claimed Walt lived a charmed life (would be nice to have that though :D).
 
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