CZ P-09

KANSAS K-9

Inactive
I just purchased a CZ p-09
How do people prefer to carry guns with decockers on them do you use the safety or install the decocker ???
Thank you
 
I don't have the P09 but I do have it's baby brother, the P07. Pretty much the same deal. I carry it with the decocker. All things being equal I would rather not have a manual safety. With a little practice and some break in that double action trigger was a very manageable initial pull.
 
De-cock is always a preference for safety issues. "Re-set" is the extra added measure for firing. A single safety is sufficient in the right firearm. (But does the firearm need extra motions to fire?) I love a Beretta de-cock, and would practice it at the range often, if I ever needed it for protecting myself and my family.

De-cock is admirable at the range, but not necessary...like on a 1911 .45 ACP... one in the chamber and 7 rounds behind it.
But in the household, is the de-cock part of your safety in the home environment...especially around kids where the firearm is locked away from their reach?

If you know your firearm, and practice in conceal carry, every movement is significant to protect yourself and innocents around you.

So the question is about "do I need a de-cock?" The answer is "how fast do you need to use your firearm in self-defense?"

Fewer devices is quicker defense... unless practiced.
 
Boncrayon said:
De-cock is always a preference for safety issues.

Manually decocking a handgun is a basic gun-handling skill. There are several ways to do it, and all of them are risk free if you use good technique and THINK about what you're doing. Anyone with two hands and reasonable dexterity can do it with a little practice. (If you have physical limitations, then a decocker may be a good option.)

Boncrayon said:
But in the household, is the de-cock part of your safety in the home environment...especially around kids where the firearm is locked away from their reach?

Decockers have little to do with household safety.

The only time a decocker is used is after the first round has been chambered and the gun is being made ready for carry, or after the last shot has been fired!

I would argue that a decocked gun in a child's (or inexperienced shooter's) hand is arguably more dangerous than one with a safety engaged -- as all it takes is a trigger pull, to turn that decocked gun into a tragedy. But, then, if the kid has either type of gun in his (or her hands), safety has already been ignored.

There's nothing wrong with decockers. But, the extra comfort offered by a decocker is arguably more apparent than real. If you like them, use them, but don't fool yourself about these guns being more safe.

Negligent discharges that occur while decocking are kind of like BIG FOOT encounters: everyone believes the critters exist, but it's hard to prove it.
 
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Manually decocking a handgun is a basic gun-handling skill. There are several ways to do it, and all of them are risk free if you use good technique and THINK about what you're doing. Anyone with two hands and reasonable dexterity can do it with a little practice. (If you have physical limitations, then a decocker may be a good option.)

I think we can agree though that a mechanical decocker is likely "safer" than doing it manually though. If I'm going to carry a gun hammer down I would prefer it have a decocker. Do I plan to screw up decocking a gun manually? No, and there are methods as you mentioned that make it very safe. But things can happen. I don't really see it as a point for debate. Especially not when the firearm in question here ships with the parts to let the user decide what he/she wants to do.

I would argue that a decocked gun in a kid's hand is arguably more dangerous than one with a safety that has been engaged -- as all it takes is a trigger pull, to turn a "game" into a tragedy. But, then, if the kid has either type of gun in his (or her hands), safety has already been ignored.

I couldn't agree with this more.
 
TunnelRat said:
I think we can agree though that a mechanical decocker is likely "safer" than doing it manually though.

ONLY if you don't use proper technique and don't pay attention to what you're doing. And, if you're that slack when decocking, who know what else you're doing wrong?

I don't like decockers for a reason that has nothing to do with the safety -- I don't like the difference between the first and following trigger pulls (i.e., the DA/SA transition) that is almost always there with decocker guns.

Shooters says, "you can train around that." True, but a surprising number apparently never do. (I spent several years scoring targets at various gun game matches, you could almost always tell who was shooting a decocker-equipped weapon and who wasn't -- just by looking at the targets.)

My key point, however, is that decockers make people think a decocked gun is safer than one that has the safety engaged. After the weapon is decocked, it isn't.
 
ONLY if you don't use proper technique and don't pay attention to what you're doing. And, if you're that slack when decocking, who know what else you're doing wrong?

I'll still disagree with you here. Even if the percent chance of an ND goes from all of 2% to 1% it's still a difference and it's a feature I'll always look for in guns that I plan to use DA/SA even though I know how to do it "safely" manually. To each his own.

As for the shootability of DA/SA we've had that discussion a number of times and I have no desire to rehash it.

I will agree that I don't think a decocker is any more "safe" than a manual safety.
 
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TunnelRat said:
I'll still disagree with you here. Even if the percent chance of an ND goes from all of 2% to 1% it's still a difference and it's a feature I'll always look for in guns that I plan to use DA/SA even though I know how to do it "safely" manually. To each his own.

The logic of your argument is flawless, but of questionable merit. Do you really think the incidence of ND discharges while decocking ever approaches even the 1% rate?! And how many of those occurred when the gun was pointed in the wrong direction? I've been shooting seriously for 20+ years -- primarily at indoor ranges. That's where you see idiots doing stuff that make your blood curdle. I also have played in and observed gun games matches, etc.

Maybe that explains our different perspectives -- you've seen things I haven't.

One of the reasons I like the gun games is that their routines and practices REALLY focus on the basic skills that keep you from hurting yourself and others. That said, I have yet to see a negligent discharge that occurred while someone was decocking. Even when they're playing with SINGLE ACTION REVOLVERS!

I HAVE seen a number of folks pull off a round or two while practicing presentations and first shots, using both single-action and deocker-equipped guns, and a number of other careless or stupid behaviors over the years. But no decocking-related NDs. (There are a surprising number of holes in the ceilings of most indoor ranges, fore example...)
 
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Do you really think the incidence of ND discharges while decocking ever approaches even the 1% rate?!

I don't know the actual percentages, nor would I think anyone does. It was just an example meant to emphasize that I think the chance of a ND with a mechanical decocker is less than doing it manually, even if that percent difference is very small.

I also don't personally see a downside to having or using the mechanical decocker, so to me it's all gravy. On CZs it does mean you have to choose between having a safety or not in terms of the traditional 75 series, but of course this thread is about the P-09 where that isn't a permanent problem. If you want the safety, swap the part. If you want the decocker, swap the part. If you want both, manually decock. Since I wouldn't personally use the safety, I'd use the decocker.

There are also other designs, FNX, USP, that incorporate both, though that can have its limitations too. I imagine you might be able to tune the non-decocker versions better than those with decockers, but my P-01 with CGW parts is pretty awesome as is and I've never had the opportunity to play with a customized safety model a local gun store does have a 75 Target model but I haven't been able to handle it yet).

To the OP I'd recommend trying it each way for yourself. I can't answer for what you like personally or what makes you feel safe personally.

Maybe that explains our different perspectives -- you've seen things I haven't.

Or maybe I just have a different opinion. We're all unique butterflies in the flower garden of the world.
 
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I can defend either, or both, manual safety and decocker. I'm more comfortable carrying one in the chamber with a decocker. Just bought a new HK p30sk, could have had it either way, went for the decocker. My SIG p232 is in my carry cycle right now, a decocker. However, I sometimes carry a Kimber SOLO w/manual safety and along, long long trigger pull. Really feel most comfortable carrying a HK p7m8, neither a conventional safety, nor decocker.
 
De-cock is admirable at the range, but not necessary...like on a 1911 .45 ACP... one in the chamber and 7 rounds behind it.
But in the household, is the de-cock part of your safety in the home environment...especially around kids where the firearm is locked away from their reach?




I'm struggling to understand what you're trying to convey. I didn't know the safe handling any type of firearm suddenly changes with your environment. Unless you are alone at the range, if you are not the guy shooting next to you certainly deserves the same courtesy as anyone who lives with you.
 
I think we can agree though that a mechanical decocker is likely "safer" than doing it manually though. If I'm going to carry a gun hammer down I would prefer it have a decocker.

I agree that a decocker is more convenient and marginally safer if you carry Condition 2. But, like Walt, I carry Condition 1 because my safety-equipped CZs allow me to, and because I avoid the imprecision of a first DA shot. I've never fired any of my CZs in DA, but I have done extensive DA-only and SA-only dry firing with my LaserLyte. My DA-only groups average about twice the size of my SA-only groups, which means my SA precision is about four times better than my DA precision.

I agree with Walt that decocking a CZ 75 pattern pistol is quite easy and safe, especially if you lower the hammer only to the half cocked position as recommended. Point the gun in a safe direction, interpose a digit between the hammer and firing pin, pull the trigger until the hammer drops on your digit, release the trigger, then lower the hammer to half cocked. By releasing the trigger before lowering the hammer, you reengage the firing pin block so the gun cannot fire even if you let the hammer drop, and, if you do let the hammer slip at that point, it will stop at the half cocked position anyway.

I have heard stories of folks NDing a CZ 75 during combat gaming where you are required to lower the hammer all the way because of some idiotic rule. I'm guessing Walt has participated in such events with a safety-equipped CZ without difficulty.
 
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and because I avoid the imprecision of a first DA shot. I've never fired any of my CZs in DA, but I have done extensive DA-only and SA-only dry firing with my LaserLyte. My DA-only groups average about twice the size of my SA-only groups

I'd be curious what actual fire results would look like. It's not that I don't value LaserLyte type products, but I'd put more faith in results with live ammunition (though I suppose LaserLyte is sort of the ideal case, I just find under live fire more human components of shooting come into play and can make differences in technique/mechanics shrink somewhat). My other comment would be if you were trying to compare to DA/SA firing, it shouldn't be all DA or all SA. You should have a group of all SA and then a group of one DA and the rest SA. I get what you're saying about your DA precision vs. SA precision, but DA/SA is a mix of both with the large majority SA. I have no doubt that the one DA and then the rest SA group will likely be larger, but I don't think the group size would be twice that of the all SA group. For those that haven't done much practice with DA though it's certainly possible for it to really throw a wrench in the works. It's a system that requires a lot of practice and few people devote the time. Frankly I think there are easier systems to learn that are just as safe and I'd also accept that argument that first shot accuracy can be critical.

I really don't care whether or not someone carries DA/SA, SA-only, safe-action, condition 3, or if he/she doesn't carry at all, nor as I said do I want to get into a debate about DA/SA versus SA with safety as we have plenty of threads on here about that. It's a fair discussion to get into given the OP's question, but my comment was strictly about what is "safer" when decocking. I prefer to take as much of the human out of the loop as possible and if the desire is to carry in a DA/SA mode I would rather the dedicated decocker. My assumption is the OP hasn't decided what mode of carry he/she prefers, and that really would determine what part I would install personally. And I think for the third time I've said this on this thread, this isn't a case where you have to make a permanent choice. The P-09 allows the owner to see what works best for him/her with the option of swapping parts. The simple answer is for the OP to just try for himself/herself.
 
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I'd be curious what actual fire results would look like. It's not that I don't value LaserLyte type products, but I'd put more faith in results with live ammunition (though I suppose LaserLyte is sort of the ideal case, I just find under live fire more human components of shooting come into play and can make differences in technique/mechanics shrink somewhat).

My guess is that live fire results would have an even greater discrepancy, but I feel no need to test that hypothesis.

My other comment would be if you were trying to compare to DA/SA firing, it shouldn't be all DA or all SA. You should have a group of all SA and then a group of one DA and the rest SA. I get what you're saying about your DA precision vs. SA precision, but DA/SA is a mix of both with the large majority SA. I have no doubt that the one DA and then the rest SA group will likely be larger, but I don't think the group size would be twice that of the all SA group. For those that haven't done much practice with DA though it's certainly possible for it to really throw a wrench in the works. It's a system that requires a lot of practice and few people devote the time. Frankly I think there are easier systems to learn that are just as safe and I'd also accept that argument that first shot accuracy can be critical.

You are right, the precision of a string of 15 shots, for example, with the first being DA and the remainder SA, would have a precision greater than a SA-only string, but nowhere near as large as a DA-only string. It is a simple matter of simulating the results using DA-only and SA-only precisions and combining them in whatever length string of shots you desire. By the way, when being lazy while dry firing, it is easy to forego cocking the hammer each time, thus generating a lot of DA-only data.

Many argue that practice will get rid of the precision discrepancy between DA and SA modes. I sincerely doubt it. Assume, for example, that the circular error probability for DA at a given distance is 2 inches, and only 1 inch for SA. By practicing I can see how one might be able to reduce the DA CEP to 1 inch, but the acquired skill will certainly result in the SA CEP also being reduced. Mechanically, the longer and heavier DA pull allows more opportunity to deviate the muzzle's alignment with the target.

I can send my 75 Compact off to Cajun Gun Works and get the DA trigger pull tuned, decreasing it from maybe 12 pounds to 6 pounds, and get the length of the DA trigger pull reduced. This would certainly improve DA precision. But, while I'm having them tune the DA trigger, I'm going to have them tune the SA trigger, too -- lightening it from maybe 6 pounds to 3.5 pounds. Thus, mechanically the SA trigger will remain superior.

I omitted the first-shot accuracy importance argument, as it seems obvious. The first shot is presumably the most important shot in a DGU. I like to say I can't afford a DA warning shot, nor do I require a DA fouling shot.

I really don't care whether or not someone carries DA/SA, SA-only, safe-action, condition 3, or if he/she doesn't carry at all, nor as I said do I want to get into a debate about DA/SA versus SA with safety as we have plenty of threads on here about that. It's a fair discussion to get into given the OP's question, but my comment was strictly about what is "safer" when decocking. I prefer to take as much of the human out of the loop as possible and if the desire is to carry in a DA/SA mode I would rather the dedicated decocker. My assumption is the OP hasn't decided what mode of carry he/she prefers, and that really would determine what part I would install personally. And I think for the third time I've said this on this thread, this isn't a case where you have to make a permanent choice. The P-09 allows the owner to see what works best for him/her with the option of swapping parts. The simple answer is for the OP to just try for himself/herself.

We are in violent agreement about a decocker being safer than manually decocking, although I do agree with Walt that manually decocking to the half cock on a CZ is awfully easy to do safely.

Even though I have never carried in Condition 2, I practiced decocking my 83 and 75 Compact until I could do so confidently with a loaded chamber in my home. It helps to examine and understand all the safety features on a gun. For example, the 83 doesn't have a half cock position or a firing pin block, but it has a rebounding hammer safety. By releasing the trigger right after the hammer is released, there is no way for the hammer to strike the firing pin, even if it slips.
 
I carry my 1911's cocked and locked. The P-09 and P-07 I use the decocker. I tried the safety but it was to flat to the frame to consistently hit. But that's ok because my other CZ's have the decocker anyway and can't be converted, at least not easily if at all.
 
It looks like I'm a minority here. I haven't yet but will carry my P-09 in condition 2. I installed the safety and will manually lower the hammer all the way down on a loaded chamber. I shoot IDPA SSP with a safety equipped SP-01 so I have to manually lower the hammer to start every stage. It is second nature to me because I've done it so often. The other reason being while shooting my decocker equipped guns (P-01 and Sphinx SDP compact) I sometimes activate the decocker accidentally. The P-01 especially since the decocker lever faces to the rear of the gun.
 
It looks like I'm a minority here.

Not really, both Walt and Lim have mentioned doing what you propose.

ped SP-01 so I have to manually lower the hammer to start every stage. It is second nature to me because I've done it so often. The other reason being while shooting my decocker equipped guns (P-01 and Sphinx SDP compact) I sometimes activate the decocker accidentally. The P-01 especially since the decocker lever faces to the rear of the gun.

That's not an issue I have had personally but certainly a good reason to do what you do.
 
My guess is that live fire results would have an even greater discrepancy, but I feel no need to test that hypothesis.

You are right, the precision of a string of 15 shots, for example, with the first being DA and the remainder SA, would have a precision greater than a SA-only string, but nowhere near as large as a DA-only string. It is a simple matter of simulating the results using DA-only and SA-only precisions and combining them in whatever length string of shots you desire. By the way, when being lazy while dry firing, it is easy to forego cocking the hammer each time, thus generating a lot of DA-only data.

Many argue that practice will get rid of the precision discrepancy between DA and SA modes. I sincerely doubt it.
Okay, I'll bite and open the can of worms. [emoji106] [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87] [emoji106]

These were fired all DA, decocking after every shot, and then a separate group, all SA. True, this is slow fire in a controlled range environment, but I have also done countless timed live-fire drills and qualifications that involved drawing from the holster and placing effective rounds on target through the last couple of decades.

Now I am NOT saying that shooting DA is as accurate as SA, but I strongly disagree with any notion that it isn't, and cannot be, an effective, accurate first (or subsequent) shot when under stress.

Another small note; these results were done with stock, out-of-the-box pistols. The P-07's trigger pulls were right at 5# SA, 10# DA, and the P-01's 5# SA, almost 11# DA.

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To answer the OP's question, when I am not carrying one of my true DAO's (CZ 100 & Beretta PX4 D), my P-07 is carried decocked with a round in the chamber.
 
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