CVS Robberies

Several incidents come to mind. They all happened a number of years ago, so this "herding up, killing" is not new:

Bob's Big Boy restaurant: 4 employees herded into a walk-in freezer and shot to death.

A large shopping mall multi-movie theater complex: 4 employees herded into managers office and shot to death.

A small cellular phone business in a "strip" mall: 2 employees shot to death in rear storage room.

Another Bob's Big Boy restaurant: manager was shot to death while unlocking the office safe....only because he was trying to remove his wedding ring while he worked the combination of the safe.

In all of these incidents, the employees were not armed, and were subject to termination IF they were caught carrying a firearm at work.

In all of these incidents, the locations weren't in "bad" parts of town. In fact, they were all in relatively low crime "nice" areas.

In all of these incidents, the killings took place out of view of the public.

In all of these incidents, except for the manager trying to save his wedding ring from being stolen, the employees appeared to have fully complied with the demands of the shooter(s).

Even if you have 110% "situational awareness" of your surroundings, you may not be 100% "safe", no matter where you are.

Having brought up all of these items for you to ponder, I can only say that it's up to YOU, personally, to exercise your #1 "weapon"....your brain....and to realize that being "herded" into a back room or out of view might actually end up being a "slaughter". Use your "situational awareness", and don't get stuck in "gun mode only" as a way to survive! Think "What can I use as an effective ruse, or make-shift defensive 'weapon'?"

Lastly, an incident with a "happy ending"! A robber entered a crowded liquor store and pushed his way to the sales counter where he pulled out a sawed-off shotgun. The robber was wearing a ski mask. While the employee was emptying the cash register, a customer was able to "arm" himself with a bottle of wine from one of the racks. That customer was also able to sneak up on the robber and hit him solidly in the temple, which caused him to drop the shotgun and fall to the ground. A few other customers jumped on the robber, and the employee retrieved the shotgun.

I was a LEO at the time, and responded to the "Robbery in progress" radio call at the liquor store. My partner and I arrived within less than 2 minutes after the initial phone call. The suspect (robber) was definitely hurting, and even mouthed the words, "Kill me!"

The "hero"? A 19 year old illegal alien from Mexico! He was worried about his immigration status when we were conducting our initial investigation! Heck, I wanted to give him "instant" U.S. citizenship for what he had done! He DID, in fact, benefit from his heroism, for he was granted a "green card", and stayed in the USA to testify in the criminal trial. (He also got a case of beer....or so I heard....from the owner of the liquor store).

You have to admire someone like that! A wine bottle "weapon"? That was truly "situational awareness" at its best!
 
If he doesn't display a weapon and you shoot him, you may have just shot an unarmed man (the old finger in coat pocket gag).

Shouldn't bring a finger to a gun fight.

Besides, if he wasn't going to shoot and you pull out your gun and yell FREEEEZE, he might decide to start shooting.

If you've never been a cop or soldier, you have absolutely zero business trying to control such a situation with voice. Sorry, but you don't. Cops, and many soldiers, HAVE controlled a number of situations with voice, and know how to use inflection, body language, etc, to help guarantee compliance.

Bad guys know this. Bad guys recognize this.

Bad guys do not want an off-duty cop/soldier as part of their robbery pool because they KNOW off-duty cops/soldiers WILL shoot their ass dead when defending themselves and the group they're a part of.

And if you pull out your gun and the bad guy decides to pull out HIS gun, you'd damned sure better have made the decision the nano-second you pulled your weapon that you had every intention of using it and using it lethally.

Again, if you've not been a cop or soldier, you have no business using your weapon as a persuasive or negotiating tool.

Jeff
 
Thanks, TexasSeaRay

I much enjoyed your, "Shouldn't bring a finger to a gun fight"!!! :)

And you've skillfully blended that funny {but great} quip with the sobering, "Again, if you've not been a cop or soldier, you have no business using your weapon as a persuasive or negotiating tool." Hey, I'm NOT playing "judge" here; I'm just sharing the way I feel about a comment I think is good.
 
Two observations:

1. There are no instances where a LEO surrendered his (her) weapon and the villian let them go free. They have all been killed or a serious attempt made to kill them.

2. There are no instances where villians have 'herded' employees and patrons into a back room and then left without further action. Typically the people are killed, sometimes raped prior to killing.

A good man with whom I worked was murdered by being shot in the back at an ATM late last week. He offered no resistance other than trying to flee.

My own considered opinion is fully cooperating and surrendering to an assailant or armed aggressor is unmitigated folly and will only benefit the aggressor. (Which is not to say one can't feign cooperation in order to gain a tactical advantage.) I will resist; violently if need be.


TexasSeaRay, "Shouldn't bring a finger to a gun fight" is a most enlightened concept. Or I have phrased the sentiment, "He nearly scared me to his death."
 
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So would someone be legally justified in shooting a person who does not have a visible weapon?

Lets assume that there were several people at the store with you at the time it was robbed. If they were scared enough to comply with the robber, the threat was credible. Is that enough for the police to rule it a good shoot? I sure as heck would hope so. Its possible he was bluffing and its possible he is not. If he has his hand on a weapon, he probably has his finger on the trigger. Would you risk calling a bluff when he could shoot you or others? HE is in the wrong for holding up a store. You are acting in self defense, especially since he is herding people into the back.

Seems justifiable to me. Don't want to get shot... Don't commit robberies... especially without a gun! :rolleyes:
 
I just wanted to emphasize that these are not made up scenarios... someone has done this recently at several CVS stores in my area. Each time the BG herded people into an office and then proceeded to empty the register and steal some booze while he had the store to himself. Nobody was injured in the robberies.

I however feel that herding people into a room does scream "hostage situation" or "execution style killing".

I think doing this is a particularly BAD decision on the part of the BG because many CCWs might stand by and let a regular robbery go uninterrupted since statistics are on their side (at least this was reflected on TFL poles). However I figured the act of forcing everyone into a room like that shows enough intent to kill for just about any CCWs to take action (even at risk to themselves). This seems to be much like the difference between getting involved in a robbery and getting involved in a kidnapping. Kidnappings seldom have good outcomes.
 
Rounded up

You kinda changed the plot from the original robbery would I fight or flee. I suggest to you NEVER EVER let someone take you to a secondary location (the onion field comes to mind). In this new plot, I would have to respond by moving to safety and if that caused my enemy to respond negatively then so be it.
 
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A "normal" robbery is "give me the money from the register".....and scram. The BG doesn't have much time to get nervous...or think about doing anything else stupid...he gets the cash he can and runs. The ones who try to take more, demand that the safe be opened and other stuff like "go to the back room" have shown obvious premeditation and will likely go farther than the dummy who runs in and out.

Stuff like the "normal" robbery happens so fast you probably couldn't stop it if you were not tracking the guy before he made the attempt to rob. The latter takes way more time, the BG's get nervous, and God forbid something in their "plan" goes wrong.

In the first case I have to say let it ride unless they start acting like the second case, which I think is about how long it'd take to process and ACT anyway, I think.

We're likely talking seconds here...very few. In that case you're probably facing some pretty determined BG's, use whatever training (if any) you have and go one or two shots COM and try to get behind some cover. Hopefully in the process you observed how many BG's there were and their locations...also you hope that once they hear gunfire not originated from them they will get nervous and leave their fallen buddies.

All of that is off the top of my head, I could be very wrong but that's my gut reaction to the question.
 
How about: If they commit an armed robbery, and they herd people in the back room, then they are profiling themselves with those who commit massacres against innocent people.


Thus: Let God deal with the sorting process . . . these kind of people are a waste of air and a waste of life.



I am on boar with the general consensus of this thread.
 
Revance
So there have been a string of robberies at CVS stores in my area where the BG rounds up all the employees and patrons and makes them go into an office while he cleans out the registers and steals booze. He never displayed a weapon, but told everyone he had a gun and kept his hand up inside his coat sleeve.

It helps to know where 'in your area' is, and of course, any link to a news article is beneficial.
 
I guess it depends on where I was at the time. If I'm just walking up to the story and I see people being "herded" by somebody, I will definitely retreat and call 911 from my vehicle and be a star witness. If I am in the herd, I like to think I'll be prepared to put the guy down. Each situation is different, though, and needs on the spot decisions that can't be illustrated here with any surety.

One thing that weighs heavily on my mind is the one guy that I knew that was killed on his knees, execution style, in his own store less than a mile from my house.
 
Machiavelli, Mahan, Sun Tzu, to name a few...

... are all pretty much agreed on this:

Plan for your enemies capabilities, not his apparent intentions.

It isn't that having an idea of intentions isn't useful, but you can't assess them nearly as accurately as you can assess capabilities. If your plan hinges on the BG having non-violent intentions in the end game, then it doesn't work so well if your assessment was not valid.

I'd rather let them count on my mercy, than vice versa.

Cheers,

M
 
Archie, regarding your 2 observations:

2. There are no instances where villians have 'herded' employees and patrons into a back room and then left without further action. Typically the people are killed, sometimes raped prior to killing.

Reality:

I just wanted to emphasize that these are not made up scenarios... someone has done this recently at several CVS stores in my area. Each time the BG herded people into an office and then proceeded to empty the register and steal some booze while he had the store to himself. Nobody was injured in the robberies.

I hope this is not indicative of your situational awareness as well. :rolleyes:
 
Objectivity

COMPLIANCE DOES NOT GAURANTEE SURVIVAL!!!

Neither does fighting back.

It always make me shake my head when I read the responses of those that post something to the affect that they would make the BG eat lead. They always believe that they will come off the victor -- even though the vast majority have never drawn their weapon much less even fired a shot in a true SD situation. They without fail assume their prowess will overcome.

its the last thing he'll ever do besides hit the floor with two more holes in his head, like a sack of potatoes.

His failure to comply with me will be a fatal error on his part.

he just rolled snake eyes and got dealt Aces and Eights!

Then its lets beat the bad guy until someone pulls me off.

and he better have been going to the range more than twice a month for 4-6 hours each time, practicing his headshots......because I do.
 
Quote:
COMPLIANCE DOES NOT GAURANTEE SURVIVAL!!!

Neither does fighting back.

It always make me shake my head when I read the responses of those that post something to the affect that they would make the BG eat lead. They always believe that they will come off the victor -- even though the vast majority have never drawn their weapon much less even fired a shot in a true SD situation. They without fail assume their prowess will overcome.

Sure, it doesnt guarantee survival, but I'd damn rather die TRYING than sitting there on my knees. If the guy HINTS at harming me, I'll be hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst. Fight back and be killed, or sit there and be killed? You pick, my mind is made up.
 
I knew this would happen...

I'm not promoting the pacifist position (or criticizing it for that matter). I was trying to draw attention to something I see over and over again.

A significant number believe (or at least comment in such a way as to infer) that if they engage a BG that it will naturally be a happy ending. It's just not always the case unfortunately. The realist understands action does not necessarily equate to success, and that it is foolish & dangerous to assume it will.
 
Steve,

Could not agree more.

Would also add that "fighting back" isn't always as easy as it is in "training scenarios" or idle daydreams or gunstore counter conversations. They told us in the military that the single hardest decision we'd ever make was the decision to pull the trigger on another human being for the first time.

They were right.

Jeff
 
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