Custom Shotguns and common sense....

Robe,no one is MAKING you read my posts, are they?

If I sound repetitious, it is repetitious to have to tell a buncha tyros PG shotguns are for the movies,or 3" magnum shells are oft a waste of money.Or that technology is no substitute for expertise.But the same queries keep turning up. And not just here, go check on the Handguns BB and see how many folks think no GM is reliable right out of the box.

And, my opinions(and I keep stressing they're opinions) are formed after turning a few hundred COs into shooters,and some informal research stretching over more than 20 years.So we're not talking about some theorizing by some gun shop commando with a lot of magazines in his mailbox,and little else.
 
My base shotgun was a 18.5" 590A1, with ghostrings. $350.

Without going into the other 'necessary' parts that were purchased for the gun, the VangComp VCS added another $220, and achieved its intended purpose of shrinking my spread pattern with buckshot. Recoil reduction is noticable, but not amazingly so. With the VCS, my ability to contain the payload in a smaller area was achieved, so the money was well spent.

As an aside, dealing with Vang is great. he is extremely helpful, and dedicated to his customers. I purchased the +1 extender from him to add another round (i have the 5+1 18.5" version). We could not find an extension that fit right, so he told me to mail the gun off to him. After doing so, he installed a working extension, polished the internals, and was about to ship the gun back to me free of charge. i was so satisfied with his Customer service, i ended up ordering the VCS! He pulled an already 'smithed barrel, installed it, and i had the gun back within a week.
 
Thanks, Chiz, for that input. Every Vanger I've seen here has sung praises,and I bet they're telling the truth. My objections start when people substitute technology for expertise. It doesn't work.
 
Well, I'm a litle depressed today. I just found out that all of us guys running around with Benelli M1's and Beretta 1201's with a PG are all a bunch of tyros that belong in the movies and all of us guys that will shoot 3 inch shells are just wasting our money. That's too bad. I guess I'm switching to a forum more open minded that also accepts the more tactically oriented equipment and discussions.
 
Robe, I've no idea why you've got a bug up, but it's your bug. I didn't put it there.

Maybe if you presented your opinions, and why you came to them instead of just being sarcastic, you'd get your points across better.
 
Many thanks to Dave McC for his reiterated emphasis on not letting tactical enhancements substitute for experise. My 20 gauge 870 Youth Deer Express will (by the time the moderator of the TFL Smithy Forum gets through with it) have more enhancements than Dave has recommended, and without his repeated emphasis on the importance of acquiring the experise that can only come by means of training and much practice, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have made the mistake he has so diligently warned against(that is, failing to put more emphasis and money into training and practice than has been invested in tactical enhancements). Those who are not tyros need not feel the label is being applied to them (if the shoe does not fit, there's no need to put it on and complain about it). It fits me, and I'm grateful for the education.
 
I had a good time putting together my 870. I saved money by shopping around, but then the Vang thing was somewhat pricy. I have since found that I could have had the work done locally. I went with the Tac-Star 2000 light. I understand that it is the same design as the Surefire, but barrel mounted with exposed wiring. I have one on my 870 and Carbon 15 and it works great. I asked the folks at Tac-Star if it would hold up to 12 guage recoil and they told me that it was designed for a shotgun. The price is right.. $70 -$80.

I know that in my house, any need for a shotgun would be at very close range. The features that I do like are, tactical light, reduced recoil, night sights, a well balanced gun with the proper pull. Night sights are probably a waste at most distances within my house.
 
Dave, vang don't charge for putting on his extension, just for the work designing it and the CNC machining that goes into making it. He doesnt like SCT cast metal ones so made his own. Have one on my first vang, an 870, the second VangComp is a benelli and still underconstruction at gg and g. I guess I cycled the benelli a little too fast and lost the rear ghost ring apt. So decided to upgrade to MMC 4130 machined Ghost Ring sights, what the Benelli should have had in the first place IMO.

Dr Rob, we can set targets out at 50 yards and compare the buck patterns of a Vang modified to an unmodifed 870. I'll spend money to keep all the pellets on man sized target "out there" If the BG walks through a hole in the pattern will it make you feel good about saving some money? And yes I want buckshot good out to 50+ yards and have spent the money to do it.
If 30 feet is your goal and you feel that that is the furthest range you will have to shoot and your gun shoot well at that range then I am glad it meets your expectations.

The cost ain't much for 870 when you put things into prespective, say like the cost of Built Benelli (around $1500-1800) , or worse a full custom 1911.
Or we can talk serious money and bring up McMillan,Robar,HK-PSG-1,K80'S, and we could go on and on. So if you can afford it do it, if you can't don't bitch about people that can.

Not trying to flame anyone but saying these modification in effect do nothing is like saying a stock rem 700 is the same as a McMillan M-86. Just because the owner of that M-86 doesn't practice with it doesn't change the fact that it exceeds the factory rifle in nearly all aspects. Sounds like we are blaming the expensive gun instead of the unskilled owner. Implying that an unkilled owner of a custom gun makes the gun something less, makes no sense. The quality of a gun is not dependent upon the skill of the owner.
Having the skill to exploit the modfications is another story.And justifying the expense is an subjective call for all shooters. One thing is sure if you buy one it won't make you a worse shot than if you didn't, but it could help you in some ways even if you are trained less than the experts.

As a drag race driver I know says, how fast do you want to go? That will determine how much you will spend.

I have talked to instructors at Gunsite and when at FrontSight asked them opinions about these mods and they recomended getting them. If they can take in SWAT teams and improve them they seem to have a very good grasp for training and the skills to back their recommendations. I doubt many here are as well trained as five gun master Piazza. Based on what I learned in one day I feel confident trusting their opinions.

BTW who said that add on parts make up for practice and skills?

Though this is not best analogy, but when I started playing tennis and later helping instructor teach it I used cheap graphite raquet. Later I upgraded to one that was as good as it gets. And yes I could tell the difference betweent the two. The new one was much more rigid and had better feel. The reason I was using a raquet that Michael Chang later won the French Open with was that I knew that it would always exceed my playing ability. This left no doubt about my ability or lack there of. Can't blame the equipment when it will exceed your best ability.
If a shotgun doesn't pattern as well as it could (Pellets are still effective at that "x" range) then you are limiting ammo that is too limited in range already, or trying to shoot slugs without sights at ranges the slugs are effective and you end up missing targets, rifle or ghost ring are going to beat that bead most every time. So why keep the ability of your gun limited if you can afford to change it, or in some cases can you afford not to?

BTW all shotguns work just fine without recoil pads! Why spend the money.

And on the 3" mag load I would think they would be recommended for all Benelli owners seeing how I have heard of all the stalling problems with light loads in this gun as talked about on this forum in the past.

Based on the number against doing anything to stock guns on this thread I will agree to disagree here. To each his own.



[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited September 11, 2000).]
 
The point that was being made is that there is no substitute for training and practice.
Too often people will buy a more expensive gun believing it will make them shoot better when more time at the range is the answer. This is endemic behavior in the clay target sports and those who are constantly switching guns usually get whumped by the gentleman who is shooting a Remington 1100 and has done so all his life.

On a limited budget, you are better served to have a modest but reliable gun and dedicate time to practice than buying a more expensive gun that never gets shot. No amount of spending on equipment will substitute for practice.

There is a world of difference between tactical equipment and tactical planning. The later is the more important. The equipment should fit your plan not vice versa. If you need a tight buck pattern at 50 yards et al then adjust your equipment accordingly. But make sure it is what you need not something that some gunwriter is happening to promote to drive up his magazines ad revenue.
 
You're very welcome,Tyro, glad I could help.

Ober, no place do I say mods and addons are useless. The HD 870 here is accessorized to death. But, I got good before getting the bellsnwhistles,and that's my recommendation. If you are good enough that the only possible way to increase effectiveness is to upgrade your equipment, far be it from me to dissuade you.Till that point, practice is the best expenditure, IMO. And that runs contrary to what some folks are doing now. That's why I started this thread.
 
PJR I wont argue any of that, sounds right to me. My beef was the tone ot this thread. To me and at least one other is seemed to imply that people that spend money on high dollar firearms train very little with them, which is true in some cases. And in those cases I doubt that anyone that can afford to buy a razzledazzle Benelli or Les Baer will have any trouble affording the ammo or training for the thing. If they do they are on the very edge of financial problems. I believe they are just lazy or uninclined to practice and may have a false sense of security about their abilities based on how reliable ect.. their gun is. Also many people here buy so many guns that the cost of working them over and training with them plus ammo can be very expensive, I cant say I havent been guilty of that a time or two myself.
I liken this somewhat to staying in shape, most people have the time and money to stay healthy they just dont do it and make excuses why they cant, I know I did it for years.
Again no argurment here from me.
 
Dang Dave, you are fast, I guess I will get another keyboard that is quicker ;)

As you could tell didn't see your post in time, you were typing while I was, again don't have any problem with what you've just said, it just seemed like the non training was implicit in all who modified their guns. I should change my previous remark from some, to many people dont train with their shotguns wheather high dollar or otherwise.
See ya.
 
Oberkommando..


The range of 30 feet was mentioned because "home defense' was the thread. At 50 yards of course you will see a difference. How many "defensive shots" are fired at 50 yards?

My point simply was at close range (as in inside the average home) most of the expensive accurizing gadgets like ghost rings and vanging are unecessary.

Your results may vary. At 50 yards I'll put a slug up the pipe and shoot it like a rifle.
 
Rob for HD you are right.

I was thinking more along the sarcasitic latter of the three that Dave mentioned

"personal/social/WIHTF tool"

Im thinking of more murphy like societal situations. :)
 
Always enjoy your threads Dave, and this one is one of the best.

I have an 870 Marine Magnum with only one addition: a Speedfeed stock that holds an extra 4 shells internally. I have done quite a bit of patterning with the MM and am not enitrely satisfied with the large size and distribution of the shot. The patern is VERY large.

After much discussion, research and reading on this site I have decided that I will have a bit of work done to it. I plan on having the forcing cone lengthened and I will add screw-in chokes. I figure this will give me a tighter and a more even pattern with that short barrel.

After that work, I think she'll be done.

Great discussion we have here guys.

CMOS

------------------
NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
Dr. Rob, have you used ghost ring sites? I think they are great. You get fast target acquisition. For home defense, if you see it in your ghost site it is in serious trouble.

CMOS, have you had any trouble with you speed feed stock dropping shells when you fire? I never had one but I have read about people claiming that when shooting shells fall out at times. just wondering, I have a speedfeed4(-s) on my mossberg and I love it.

curious
 
curious - I have never had a shell drop out of that SpeedFeed. I think you'd have to shoot a 6" magnum shell for that to happen. ;)

I think the SpeedFeed is pretty slick.

CMOS

------------------
NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
my 870 is a express mag,scoped,see thru mounted as well on a 26 inch tube with a modified and a 4 inch rifled choke tube.i outshoot my buddys regularly rifled vangamacallit modified sg ,total cost?
244$ for 870 new nylon stocked as well,40 on simmons scope and 40 on mount.he only blew 775 to git his done and i still hit tighter groups with slugs at 100yards than his spas or 1100 all done up.then again ive been shooting longer than him too.......
 
Here's a tip I will gladly pass along to everyone on the list here...

Call Jon Tank of Tank's Rifle Shop at 402-727-1317.

This guy is one of the unsung heros of gunsmithing. His extensive background includes time in the U.S. Army as an armorer as well as many year at Cylinder & Slide Shop. He specializes in Remington shotguns (870, 1100, and 11-87), Remington rifles, M-1As, and AR-15s. He's even aligned as a Class III manufacturer if that sort of thing is on your "MUST HAVE" list.

He does excellent work at fair prices, but best of all he's honest and will not sell you what you do not need. Give him a list of what you want to use the gun for and he'll tell you what you need. No BS. No hype.

He's completely worked over a Remington 1100 and Colt AR-15 Lightweight for me. Both are supurb. In the case of the AR-15, Jon talked me out of about $1000 worth of work I wanted to do on the piece as I was looking for a defensive carbine.

The 1100 with it open choked 18 inch barrel and Sage ghost ring sights will throw Winchester one ounce slugs into a group at 100 yards you can cover with you hand.

Jon and I have been doing business for six years and I have no complaints.

- Anthony
 
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