Custom Shotguns and common sense....

D

Dave McC

Staff In Memoriam
Most of us have lusted after various high priced shotguns, whether it's a Grant side lever double costing as much as my truck,or the new Loudenboomer SP Mag some after market company advertises as the "Ultimate" 870/11-87/Mossy/Benelli upgrade.

You know the ads,"This shotgun was worked over by our team of shotgun smithing experts, former Navy Seals,and folks who work for the govt in areas so secret we may be killed for mentioning it to produce the ULTIMATE HD/
personal/social/WIHTF tool"....

I've nothing agin' Scattergun Technologies, or Vang. In fact, I think they do good work, going on the lack of complaints I hear on maybe 5 shotgun bbs. But, try to convince me that an 870 from them costing $900 UP is somehow superior in effect than a $200 used police turnin, $200 in smithing and addons, and $500 for ammo and range fees. Make that $300 for addons if you want a light, and $400 for shells.

Go ahead,I'll wait right here.

The reality is, we all have jobs and families,and money spent on $900 shotguns is money we're not putting into our mortgages, college funds for the kids, etc. And, maybe it's Wonderful Wife's turn to get a toy, or pay off that credit card.

So, can any of you folks out there describe how your life holds new meaning since you got Vang'd?

Maybe I should break this down a bit. Let's start with a used 870, decent recoil pad, and the smoothbore 20" slug bbl fitted with Rem Chokes,possibly the most available right now.

And of course,since it's an 870, it needs little/no work to make it reliable.

Shotgun, $150 to 200.
Trigger job,(if needed to bring in a clean 3-4 lb trigger), $50.
Forcing cone, $50.
Sling swivels and sling, $25.
Next,a 3 shot mag extension w/clamp, $50-70.
Sights(and this is optional, I like them but have done excellent work with a plain bead), about $100 MAX, and cheaper if you get a Lyman or Williams peep sight and use the front sight on that slug bbl.

So far, counting everything, about $500. Of course,your shotgun may have a decent trigger,sling swivels, and the rifle sights may work well for you.

One advantage of this approach is that all the money isn't needed at once. You've got an extra hundred this payday,so the smith down at Guns R Us does the trigger and cone.

Another hundred is left after Jr's braces come in under the estimate,and so on.

And it reaches a point where nothing further is needed, you've got cash for ammo and/or one of the good instructors, and life is good.....
 
Well, our two kids have four feet and wet noses. Schooling would require rides in cars, something they hate passionately (possibly because all of their car rides end at the vet...).

We're 8 years into our mortgage and put an extra $100 each month against principle. I max out my 401k contribution. The house just got new bathrooms, the plumber is just installing a new furnace and central ac. Electrical service was redone last year. My car is brand new, bought without a loan. We'll do the same for my wife in the next few weeks. We have no debts other than the mortgage and our retirement savings looks to be on track.

I can afford to spend a few bucks on another toy.

M1911
 
Damn, 1911, I don't think, finacially speaking, are the typical firearms enthusiast. ;)
I agree with what you are saying Dave.....except I'm, if anything, even tighter than you when it comes to defense scatterguns. Mine is a 9 shot sythetic Mossy that cost less than 200 bucks at Wallyworld before Christmas last year. I'm sure it will do as much as one of the $900 wonder-scatter-guns as you described.

I just wish I was as finacially disiplined as 1911. I spend the money left over on another gun instead of the mortage, etc. But we did recently spend some of the left over(?) money on classes for one of our kids. Another four legged, wet nosed kid in the form of the wolf. She is going to obediance class and doing quite well. ;)

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!

[This message has been edited by Gunslinger (edited September 06, 2000).]
 
I agree, Spending another $700.00 on a shotgun wont help me hit crazy Charlies hand thrown clays any easier...unless...it has radar or self illuminating IR and turret mounted. oooh maby I do want that :D

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BE AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS, THE ENEMY IS
 
I'd agree, only thing I'd add to the list is a weapon-mounted light (Surefire preferred, but not required). Did some low-light shooting at a recent class and boy is it a PITA to use a hand-held flashlight and a long arm. :)

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
 
I lust after a beautiful, fitted, lightweight, and nicely balanced 12 gauge O/U with changable chokes. I can't afford it now though. A 12 gauge 870 express does triple duty as skeet buster, home defense, and game taker.

I suspect that even after I get my dream shotgun the 870 will still be there as my home defense weapon.
 
I compare this issue to food and cars. A Geo and a Porsche will both get you from point A to point B, but the porsche is a sweet ride and a lot more enjoyable if you can afford it. Some people can make a meal out of a peanut butter sandwiche or McDonalds meal #whatever. Others can afford and enjoy other more expnsive meals at restaurants without a drive up window.
Maybe I'm good enough to tell the difference in a modified full blown Vang 870. Maybe I got the money to buy that tricked out Scat Tech special. We are trying to discuss (in this forum) all aspects of shotguns and the use of shotguns. No one has to convince you of anything. No one has to make you understand why you need anything. I have not read any post from anyone downgrading your desire to use a basically stock 870 or 11-87.Some of us enjoy experimenting with various mods and would like the freedom to discuss these things. What it all boils down to is what works for the individual. If a stock slightly modified 870 suits you just fine, well happy shooting. If I want to use a totall tricked out 870 fromsome super shop, good for me. I would just like the freedom to discuss these things thru this forum with others that have similar interests without being told I'm foolish for spending more on equipment than range time and ammo. I'm not going to attempt to convince you of anything.
 
So you want to know how my life has vhanged since I got Vanged? I'd be happy to tell you. I bought my basic 870 and thought it kicked quite bit. I'm experienced with shotguns and could use proper technique to overcome this. I take new people never eposed to guns and let them shoot all of my guns to introduce them to the sport of shooting and to show them that guns have another purpose besides killing people.
I have taught(or tried ) three guys and two girls about shotguns by letting them shoot five different types of shotguns. All five shot the stock 870 one time and said no more.
I sent my 870 to Vang for the full works package. It cost me about $700.00 total. I convinced those same five people to shoot the improved Vang 870 and all of them love it. The have since become more interested in guns in general and especially like my Vang 870. I too like it more. Since I have been "Vanged" now, my life has changed alittle. Five other people have changed their attitude significantly about shotguns for the better. They can now take my 870 and shoot it ALOT more in order to learn the proper techniques of shotgun shooting. Otherwise, they would have laid it down and thought that all shotguns were this way. I use it as a teaching tool to help first timers. It also shows others what can be done to enhance or customise firarms to your specific desires or needs once you become experienced in technique. Do not under estimate the benefits of modifications. There are many ways to use them.
 
Dave, thoughtful as always.

I did this in bits, but not on the economy plan, I admit.

870 PM -- traded w/$ for M 500

Added:
- big-head safety
- 2-rd mag extension

Saw ad for Vang barrels on sale, and added
- 18" Vang comp barrel

Grew discontented with factory pad, and added
- Decelerator pad (w/ the SC "hard" heel)(ask me for my method for sanding on a finished stock)

Prepared to take def SG course, and added
- sidesaddle carrier (see note 1)
- SureFire forearm (see note 2)

Note 1: still not sure I really like the sidesaddle, although it's a nice counterbalance to the muzzle-heavy feel of a full extended tube; mostly this was a concession to the need to keep the SG running in a class setting, rather than a real-life defensive choice

Note 2: this is the one thing I really hesitated over, partly due to the cost (even on sale), partly due to the fact that it makes the darn thing even more muzzle-heavy, and partly due to the fact that in a defensive situation I would usually prefer a rifle anyway (YMMV)

I haven't replaced the bead sights...partly because I favor rifles and partly because I don't think they're necessary on a diet of buck (I don't see myself shooting slugs in a HD situation, especially with a rifle next to the SG).

I will have to say, in defense of Hans Vang, that the tone of his website is in my opinion very different than Wilson's, I mean Scattergun Tech's. Not that there's anything wrong with WC/ST, but a lot of words seem to have been devoted to "product differentiation" and institutional affiliation. I think the few testimonials on Vang's site are more straightforward...not trying to trade on hype and image ("I own a BORDER PATROL shotgun").

My 870 became something of a project, and I have enjoyed tuning it more than I would have enjoyed just plunking down a lump sum and having it done -- although sometimes that might be the thing to do, too. Maybe the bottom line is, whatever floats your boat? We all appreciate your (Dave McC's) keeping us honest!
 
Thanks for the responses, folks....

First, if any of us are so darn good at shotgunning that it takes a major cash outlay to increase effectiveness significantly,You da man!!

Second, a perusal of this and other BBs shows lots of folks seemingly under the assumption that a stock shotgun is but a base on which to build. I've shot possibles on my dept course with an issue 870, bet you could too, with practice.

As for Vang leading us to the Promised Land of shotgunning, maybe. I've heard paeans of praise from the Vangans,and some of them are most credible.

But, (pay attention please,Robe) does Vang do much beyond what anyone can? Even a klutz like me can screw on a mag extension.

Now,some history.Back around 1977, I started working at the Md House of Correction, and got to thinking I might need a HD weapon more than a goose gun, so the 870 Pop gave me got hotrodded a bit. By 81 I was a Firearms Instructor, expected to get rookies of various talents and motivation up to speed on firearms, including the 870. So, my personal 870 got drafted to act as a test frame for some mods.And,some folks really appreciated being broken in rather than down, on a heavy 870 w/ little kick. Bit by bit, that 870 went through some addons, some smithing and a LOT of test firing.

Now,that 870 is accessorized like Joan Rivers, and I've 3 more in the house, one for deer and one for birds, clays and fun in general. Weights on the 12 gas run from a bit less than 7 lbs to 9 1/2 for the HD piece.

Coupla things...

Re lights, I might be fonder of them if I found a good one for a reasonable price. And, that little extra weight is what turned a responsive tho heavy 870 into an anvil.

However,it occurs to me that good form means at HD ranges one doesn't need sights much, muscle memory will suffice. Target ID IS crucial,tho.

Kick reducers,,including mercury devices,Pro porting, etc, are OK, but the best way I've found to cut kick is to weight up the shotgun. THAT's the big advantage to an extended mag, more than the extra rounds.A 2 rd extension runs about 7 oz, 3 rd, 10. A two rd extension cuts kick about 6% on a riot 870.

The one thing we agree on is the forcing cone job. I like it not for the kick reduction, but the denser patterns.

And Robe, kudoes for the teaching, More of us should do exactly that. I'd have started them off with a 20,tho....
 
I am not Vanged- yet. I do plan to be in the future. I do agree completely with Dave McC...in most cases the add-ons are nice but not needed, and you can do it cheaper piecemeal. But my financial situation is closer to 1911s than most (not rich by a long shot, but no debts and I save up for toys rather than buy on credit) and heck...to be completely honest, the number of guns I'll buy in the remainder of this lifetime will probably be in the single digits.

No no, I'm not dying ;) I just don't hunt, don't collect for the sake of collecting, and don't have that many more 'needs' guns. I figure if I'm gonna buy a 'tactical' scattergun to keep the 870 Wingmaster I already have company, I might as well go whole hawg. ;)

I've been saving for months now, and I probably could go out, buy my 870 Super-Mag, ship it to Vang and be done with it pretty soon. However, the recent ban on imported FAL receivers has reprioritized my spending, and the shotgun piggy bank is being raided to get a FAL. Gotta keep one step ahead of the socialists.

Besides, Dave keeps mentioning these Loudenboomer shotguns. I might want to look into those instead of an 870. Are they imported or domestic?

;)

Mike




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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Mike, did I read that right? Sending an 870 SUPER Magnum to Vang? That's the one with the 3.5" chamber, yes?

That's gotta be a Loudenboomer if I ever saw one (or a 4 gauge, hehe). :)

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
 
Like I said, might as well go whole hog. It is conceivable that my house could be attacked by a heard of rabid crack-smoking elephants, and damnit, I WILL BE READY! ;)

Mike

PS In reality it has more to do with the fact that the super mag isn't THAT much more expensive, and if I ever want to abuse my shoulder my shooting a 3.5" shell, I will have that capability without buying another gun. I freely admit it serves no valid 'tactical' purpose. Maybe its easier to combat load. yeah. thats it. ;)
 
Ok so what Dave is saying is there are some guys out there buying a $1000 ultimate HD scattergun with tac lights and fishing kits in the pistol grip and they DON'T shoot the damn things. Not at clays not at paper bags and not at HD ranges of 30 feet or less., (am I warm Dave?)

Vanging MIGHT make it kick less but at 30 FEET I doubt you'll notice much difference in shot spread or pattern density.. whether you shoot buckshot or breath mints.

Saying there is NO "perfect" weapon out there is like saying "yeah its a COOL car.. but it doesn't have racing stripes and chrome" an IMHO, most add ons are just that.. racing stripes and chrome.

Take an 870 express with a 20 inch deer barrel with rifle sights you'll spend around $350 or so. Buy yourself cases of shotshells and range time and practice practice practice. There is NO tac-light/pistolgrip/vangamabob that will make up for that.

(rant mode off)

Dr.Rob
 
*grin*

The best part is, I'm wasting my money on a Vangcomped shotgun, but it has nada to do with training money being spent on gadgets (a problem the US Military has ATM, IMHO). My range time and shotshells are free, provided by my employer.

In general, I wholly agree with Dave- if my situation was different the extra $800 bucks or so this tricked out gun is gonna run me would be FAR better spent on sending little lead balls downrange.

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Mike, the Loudenboomer is hard to come by, but I can let you have one of mine for a mere $900(G).

To reiterate, if somebody's spending more on bells and whistles than range time and ammo, their priorities need checking.
 
For those of us that like "bells and whistles" and want to use them, why can't we discuss these things in peace without being told we're foolish and wasting money?
I live on a farm and have built my own 25 yd. handgun range and 150 yd. rifle range. We also have an electric skeet machine and shoot all we can stand. Every time someone wants to talk about new things, Dave always chimes in with ...It's like sex. If it hurts your'e doing it wrong.... add a little weight to your gun... Anybody who spends more money on add-ons than ammo and range time is wasting their money... etc. We got it. Can we please discuss various aspects of shotgunning (if nothing else from an experimental level with new things) without being critcized for it? Just give us some room to explore new things. If you have not shot a Vang modified shotgun, don't tell me I don't need it. If you shot one, then tell me WHY you did or did not like it. Don't tell me I don't need it. I don't NEED alot of things. I just want them and the freedom to dicuss them.
 
attention colorado shooters...

I don't work for Garts BUT you can get an 870 express 12 ga. with a 26 inch vent rib for $219 THIS WEEK... that's a steal! (saw in sale paper today 9/8/00)
 
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