Curiousity, a terrible thing.

Comparisons

Everybody loves data so here's some to think about.

FWIW, I pulled some comparisons from a very well known Ammo Manufacturers spread sheet. I don't want to screw up on copyright infringement.
Velocity Energy
Muzzle 100yd 200yd
.204 Ruger
39gr SierraBK 3750fps 853lbft 626lbft
Sorry didn't list any bigger bullets.
.223 Rem
55gr SP 3240 958 704
.243 Rem
100gr SP 2960 1615 1331
3006 Spr
150grSP 2910 2279 1824
300WM
180gr SP 2960 3014 2583

Taylorace is dead on about arrows. I have friends who routinely kill black bear over bait here.
An arrow simply opens a bleeding channel, rifles/pistols impart kinetic energy upon the intended target. Kinetic energy equals DRT(dead right there) value.
As you can see from the data provided, there is a near double Kinetic energy difference between the 50ish grain bullet to the 100gr bullet. All things being equal, bullet expansion, etc, then going to at least a .243 equates to nearly double the DRT factor. Simple physics.

Again all things being equal, larger bore/larger energy type projectiles will kill more effeciently than their smaller cousins.
You will be hard pressed to find a cheaper bullet from a major manufacturer than a 30/06. I've seen them for $12.00 on sale in the not so recent past.
I've killed enough animals from 100lbs to 900lbs and watched them die, run off, take the hit, that I cannot buy the idea that a .204 or .223 is an adequate round for deer on up. Will it kill them,,,Yes, in the right hands. My hat is off to you Yithian in this sense. I still see it as poor advice to anyone though. Especially if on a limited budget. One rifle? It should be big enough to get the job done even if the hunter is not perfect and still learning.
elkman06
 
The three most important aspects of hunting are shot placement, shot placement and shot placement. No bullet will turn a gut shot into a bang flop 100 percent of the time. Shot placement is much more important than the caliber of the gun or the muzzle velocity of the bullet.

I have seen a lot of badly hit animals, it is becoming more frequent every year. Several times I have followed up wounded animals that others abandoned to a slow and painful death. Got several deer and a big 6X6 elk that way. The guy who shot that elk said that it was just grazed and would live. Watched him shoot it and knew that it was gut shot. Asked if he would mind if I took the animal out. He said OK, laughed like mad and drove off. I found it bedded about 500 yards from where it was shot. It got up and was quickly killed.

I have hunted wild hogs with a .223 and military ball ammunition. Nearly all of my shots with this round have been bang flops, no hog went over 20 yards after being hit with my .223.
 
BTW, did all of you look at the pix I posted in the attached thread? Just curious....notice the bullet almost exited, and the degree of tissue damage? You just can't argue that hypervelocity generates a hell of a wound channel...that was a 55gr Sierra Game King spitzerboatail soft point, traveling about 3750fps behind 33 gr. of Benchmark powder.
 
Numbers?

Numbers don't kill. Kinetic energy isn't some magical formula. If it was, then a .22-250 would be superior to a .45-70 when facing a charging bear.
 
Numbers don't kill. Kinetic energy isn't some magical formula. If it was, then a .22-250 would be superior to a .45-70 when facing a charging bear.
Click to expand...

Don't know where you got your figures but everything I looked at shows the .45-70 far outclassing the .22-250 in the energy department. Standard wimpy factory loads 1800 fps for .45-70 starts out with around 700 more ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle than a 3500 fps .22-250. I'll take the extra 700 lbs any day along with the bullet that on average is 5-6 times heavier against any charging bear.
 
This type of question always bothers me a little. If someone needs to ask if the 223 is enough, that person probably does not have the right knowledge and experience to use it effectively.

The phrase--Its not the arrow that kills the deer but the Indian--answers the question. Too often, I see the new hunter at the range with the newest magnum or the 22 calibers. they will both do the job of killing the deer it you do your part but both will cause lost wounded animals. With the magnums, it takes practice, knowledge of your limitations and more practice to be able to shoot them well enough to use them effectively. Most once a year hunters develop a highly developed flinch from them. The extra power will not make up for bad bullet placement. With the 22s, you have to know your own limitations and that of your choice of caliber. Again, if you need to ask, you probably should not be using it.

With all that being said, I have used the 223 to great effect at times and my brother uses it exclusively. He has a cervical spine injury that prevents him from using even a 243. Where we hunt, the average shot is well under 50 yards. We both have been hunting for well over 40 years and now know what we can and cannot do with those rifles. My usual deer calibers are 7x57,8x57,7.62x54r or the 7.5x55.
 
I can make my own bullets. I know people with lathes.
I can hit a primer at 100 yards with my 204. ATTT posted a vid of it on youtube.
A bears eye has how much armor in it to protect the bears brain?
I believe a 45gr soft point can penetrate it. I propose, we find out.
Sorry, for those that don't know, taylorce1 and I are having a conversation.
I'll quit here... maybe PM's?

This thread is about inexperienced hunters.

+1 schnarrgj
lol
 
Energy Comparison

Here are the numbers. I just looked them up on the Remington website.

Muzzle Energy
.22-250 1654
.45-70 1590

Yes, there are hot rod .45-70 loads with more energy. But, I used a load that duplicates the original, blackpowder load. Again, according to these numbers, at point blank the .22-250 would be superior against an angry bear. If kinetic enrgy was so important, then how were the bison wiped out?
 
If someone needs to ask if the 223 is enough, that person probably does not have the right knowledge and experience to use it effectively.
Click to expand...

I think that's a good point. So much is dictated by the skill and knowledge of the individual. Poachers "do fine" with a 22lr, but that doesn't make it an acceptable choice for a cartridge.

So much has changed in bullet construction in the last 20 years. That opens up a lot of options for the experienced rifleman. I'd never recommend a .223, but there are many people capable of have the shot discipline to make it work.

I'm a "middle of the road" type of shooter, but I have no problem with a marksman taking an AR out to the field.

I truly see this as casting a bad light, and or unethical actions on us, the sport hunting crowd.
Click to expand...

The people who would see us in a bad light already do or lack the understand of how ballistics work to understand the handicap imposed by an "inferior" cartridge. They are the least of my concerns. A humane death is near the top. The shooter is in control of that, not the load (but I will admit the load suffers as the shooter suffers).

When I was new to hunting I had a lot of self imposed hard and fast rules. As I learned I gained a greater understanding of how tissue and lead mix or don't mix; whatever. I still adhere to my rules, but I don't look down my nose at anyone with the understanding of how their choices affect them.
 
Yes, there are hot rod .45-70 loads with more energy. But, I used a load that duplicates the original, blackpowder load. Again, according to these numbers, at point blank the .22-250 would be superior against an angry bear. If kinetic enrgy was so important, then how were the bison wiped out?
Click to expand...

I gotta ask, why would you not compare apples to apples? A modern 45/70 per Federals' program is sending a 300gr bullet out of the barrel at 2355lbft of energy. Man, talk about a Mack truck hitting you...
The bison were wiped out via a lot of guys using 45/70s', 45/90s' and the like. Not the 44/40's of the day. Too many bullets to get the job done. They were business men who didn't want to affect the profit margin by using too light a caliber. Bang for the buck you know.
Back to the subject matter, As has allready been hashed and rehashed..Yes, any caliber in the right hands will kill an animal. I just hope that we all consider the advice we might give a rookie and give it wisely.
What I have learned with this thread is that my mentality(being a Western state longer range type hunter), does not equate into common sense per se a Southeastern hunter. We have totally dissimilar experiences and attitudes.
I have also learned a lot about peoples attitudes and opinions about energy xfer on animals. That is a wholly different concept that can be beat to death as well. A difference of opinion that I had not really considered.
Anyway, happy hunting folks.
elkman06
 
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Yes, there are hot rod .45-70 loads with more energy. But, I used a load that duplicates the original, blackpowder load. Again, according to these numbers, at point blank the .22-250 would be superior against an angry bear.
Click to expand...

I never said it was all about energy, but you got to ask yourself even with less that 100 ft-lbs of energy which bullet is going to transfer that energy longer. The 55 grain bullet of the .22-250 will not be able to maintain it's energy like the 405 grain .45-70. The .45-70 will be harder to stop so it's energy will remain in effect longer until it comes to a stop inside the animal or completely exits. I'm sure with all the energy advantage of the .22-250 round well be lost in the first few inches of penetration, while the larger .45-70 bullet will continue for several inches more.

I'm pretty sure the "hot rod" load I picked which is the Federal 300 grain isn't too hot for most older rifles. Most ammunition manufactures will not load the .45-70 hot because the fear of it being shot in older rifles. I didn't go looking for hot loads at all I just went looking for a standard load, if I had wanted a hot load I would have quoted something out of Buffalo Bore's web page.
 
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