Cultural vs. Legal Gun Control...

Sad to see so much ignorance these days in the USA

A few months back I was organizing a hunting trip to Russia...and initially it seemed like a good idea...but frankly it got nixed(i went with my Brit. and Canadian friends intead...)because a lot of the Americans in that instant case...were just not the kind of folks I wanted to tag along or have to explain to people. Oh well, that's the way the cookie crumbles. The biggest threat to the freedom to own a firearm in the USA - is not some lawmaker out-of-the-blue... coming up with a new law... inasmuch it's a culture of irresponsible gun ownership. People have a way of ending up with the leaders and laws they deserve...as a result of their own values and behaviors. I have met the enemy in the USA - and it wasn't a Russian or a Frenchman. Remember Pogo ! Look at the community and the lack of community. Smell the coffee. I like Canada because I can leave the door unlocked and still enjoy the freedom to go hunting and enjoy the great outdoors. :rolleyes:
 
I won't touch on the whole crime and fear bit, but I'd like to agree that walking/biking places is alot better than traveling by car. Even though there have a been a few situations on foot/peddling where I've felt concern which I'd have avoided in a car, I think they're far out-weighed by the positive experiences I've had from walking/biking.

I've met a good number of interesting people from all walks of life, I've helped the community (shoveling snow for a random old lady really does make you feel warm on the insides inside, even is it's below zero outside!), and possibly best of all, I've gotten some fresh air.

I think with more friendly interaction with their communities, alot of younger folks would likely pick up the stronger morals and better, more respectful attitudes of their elders. I also think alot less of them would turn to crime and disrespect for their fellow man.

Anyways, that's just my two cents agreeing that cars are evil.

Cheers,
Wolfe... (Not to mention that walking/biking around is great excercise, and I've only paid for gas while walking once.)
 
Urban Plans

I know of a local park that is set up well ie. it has a lake and walking trail...and the police department and library occupy the same property. It's not perfect, but compared to the insanity of some places - it's a a winner.
For example, some parks are put out in remote hidden areas between slums near major highways...

A city like Atlanta will always be harder to cope with than a city like New York...because Atlanta is sprawled all over the place and less centralized...
A place like Atlanta...is harder to contain...whereas New York is built more on a grid and pockets of certain crimes are more easily targeted.
In Atlanta ... it's harder to find a place to preserve; the sands are constantly and rapidly shifting ie. 'Where is the neighborhood?' At least in some cities the neighborhoods and boundaries are more clearly recognizable...

Ironically a lot of the Bible Belt politicians...seem to point a finger at places like New York and California...but the stats don't seem to back up the complaints. For example, Alabama has per capita the 3rd highest homicide rate of any state in the Union...but its largest urban center - Birmingham -is a city of less than 150,000 ...which has a very high homicide rate compared to other US cities. What one finds is massive sprawl surrounding the urban area...and virtually no public transportation. Incidentally, Birmingham has churches on every street corner and the 10 Commandments have been clearly posted ! I have found any black-bereted, french, existential communists in the Alabama prisons...but I have seen many tattooed chain-smoking, culturally conservative, alienated christians.

There are tiny pockets of 'communities' in such cities - and they are often advertised - but they are in a sense storefront communities - very superficial. I would argue that the opposite of the storefront/fastfood/drive thru 'yuppie community - is the traditional close-knit community where people actually do know their neighbors...

I don't mind people owning guns, but when communities break down and kids grow up alienated(rich, middle and poor alike) the gun loses something. For example, a gun was once upon a time a symbol of self-reliance ie. it put meat on the table, defended one's family. For some people - it still does those things, but not nearly so deeply. Guns have become more like 'toys' and 'hunting' has become far more regulated and compartmentalized.
It has lost the 'self-reliance' component. Part of it - is likely the transition from a rural to a more urban society - and sometimes that means a hybridization of the worst of both worlds.

What would help people who like to hunt and who want the freedom to own a gun...is a culture with a lot less gun-related violent crime. It's that simple!
To prevent crime - one has to strengthen communities. Massive Urban Renewal and a War on Poverty - is Expensive... but the alternative is the steady erosion of doing nothing...

Currently the USA has per capita more gun-related homicides than the nations of Canada, the U.K., Japan, and France - combined. Currently, the USA has per capita the largest prison population of the entire industrialized world, although some stats show Russia to be in the lead...depending on how one counts the satellite republics... It's not your gun - it's you !

rolleyes:
 
Atlanta is also hit by the problem of being a crossroads city on the major highway that runs from Miami to New York City

Y'all moved I-95 to the other side of the state? When I checked this morning, it was still out in front of Savannah? Theivin' Ba$1@rds!

Massive Urban Renewal and a War on Poverty - is Expensive...

Expensive for whom? Who do you suggest pay for this massive urban renewal?

A war on poverty? It is called a vibrant economy, and a return to the work ethic that brought us the industrial revolution. Certainly not through legislative fiat.

It sounds to me that you would be much more at home in a more socialist environment.
 
The most effective gun control is 'cultural'.

Socialist environment ? That's a stickler of a question...because in the US it's a loaded question. I have in fact lived in a socialist environment - and even what a lot of folks would call a 'communist environment' but such labels are very superficial ie. some folks would even say that Russia has been more capitalistic in function but more communistic in ideology - whereas the USA has been more socialistic in function yet more capitalistic in its ideology.

For example, I know of some Russians and Eastern Europeans who yearn for the very regulations and governmental standards that so many Americans ironically detest. Sometimes when talking to a member of the Russian Communist Party - I'd feel like I was talking to a US Republican ie. both are culturally and politically conservative. The problem with a lot of socialist/communist governments(and various religions too)is that they started out one way - but ended up like the very power structure they were trying to reform. For example, Lenin was a brilliant man and open to democratic changes...but Stalin was a sociopath who took on the trappings of the Tsars. Ditto for Napolean... and to a lesser extent Washington. Abraham Lincoln's Party started off as progressive 'radical' party...but now is very conservative...

I don't mean to sound too concrete. In fact, that's my point. For a moment suspend all labels of Left, Right, Center, Socialist, Capitalist, Moderate...whatever...and just look at the practical changes and reforms that might help a particular society. Too often any such changes get framed and labled/demonized so as to destroy them. Let's suspend such labels so one can look at a better way to control crime and gun crimes in particular.

Massive Urban Renewal ? Yes ! War on Poverty ? Yes ! Imagine high speed bullet trains crisscrossing the USA, and the reduction of Urban Sprawl! Imagine stricter gun control in Urban Environs and looser gun control in Rural environs. Imagine more consistant laws regulating guns rather than the confusing petty differences that spring up state by state. Such changes would make our society more mobile, but also increase employment opportunities and free up communities from being isolated lagoons of poverty. Imagine a better safety net, and a much smaller prison population. Imagine the tearing down of slums, and the disbanding of ghetto neigborhoods. Admittedly, some of this(not all)is pie in the sky, but cultural changes that promote reduced alienation and a greater sense of community will in the long run do more to reduce gun violence than 10,000 gun safety courses or petty and reactionary legislation battles...

I think there has to be a compromise ie. one side says we'll back off on the gun control legislation...if you'll back off on trying to stop reformations of the safety net. I think however that many of these reforms - these progressive ideas - transcend any label of Left Right or Center. I think Benjamin Franklin, V. Lenin, and Rush Limbaugh might all have to find some common ground!

For example, wouldn't you like bullet trains crisscrossing the USA? Wouldn't you like cities safe and as gun free and beautiful as Disney Land? Wouldn't you like every child in America to have a good place to live? And wouldn't you like more uniform laws that would allow you greater freedom to use and carry a firearm in Rural areas?
:D
 
Wouldn't you like cities safe and as gun free and beautiful as Disney Land?

NO. Gun free will not make New York like Disney land.

I have been to many beautiful theme parks, they are all unique. But one thing is always the same, the beauty and happiness are illusions.

Many people are watching you in a theme park not so they can see the smile on your face but to keep you from being killed in their beautifully theme park.
 
Imagine stricter gun control in Urban Environs

Just curious, why would you restrict firearms ownership in cities? I agree with alot of what you said, I was just wondering about this part.
 
Welcome to the Magic Kingdom

Actually, I think the Disneyland metaphor is applicable. For example, when entering Disneyland - it's pretty much a given cultural norm that firearms and related weapons are forbidden. Is anyone really outraged that they can't enter the Magic Kingdom without a pistol or rifle? Does anyone feel insulted that they can't bring their Glock to church? I say this jokingly a bit ie. when I was a small child I was known to pitch a few fits for not being allowed to bring my cap guns to church! ;) And while Disneyland is a great metaphor we can picture in our minds - I also know of one nasty homicide that took place at one ie. a thug misperceived someone as breaking in line - and whirled around with a knive and stabbed the person to death. I don't offer paradise - but just the prospects of a culture where a person is perceived as deviant for bringing along a firearm.

Yet there are some major cities that do appear like Disneylands in comparisons to major American cities in regard to gun violence. The illusion that many Americans have - is that the violence they are used to in America is just a normal reality. In Moscow, I actually feel much less of a police presence than I do in most major US cities. A lot of this has to do with public transportation, urban sprawl and cultural attitudes about what is normal. The 'automobile' and 'public control of sidewalks and public transportation' is a huge factor. (About this time is usually the time I start getting flamed as a commie - but none of this really has anything to do with liberal/conservative/right/left inasmuch as it does with urban design and cultural norms...)

In the cities there is a gun culture that contrasts the gun culture found in rural environments. I don't like the urban gun culture ie. drive by shootings and kids growing up wanting a gun like the one they used in the latest video game. In rural environs there is a gun culture that I tend to respect. When I grew up I was shooting a 12 gauge by the age of 13 and was bringing home rabbits,squirrels and quail...to cook up in the iron skillet. Gadzooks, I even used a few steel traps and salted a few pelts. I remember walking down a country backroad with a holstered revolver and carrying a rifle over my shoulder. Yet, all those things out in the country were 'normal'. I learned a respect for wildlife and felt a bonding with nature. By contrast the urban gun culture is all about 'being tough because you have a gun' and 'combat'. I simply would like to increase the freedom of positive gun culture and decrease the freedom of negative/criminal gun culture.

The problem in the USA - is that the lines between rural and urban are blurred. The urban areas have sprawled across the landscape. I don't think one can begin to think of restricting guns from urban centers until the urban centers themselves have been improved by other reforms. I would simply like to see urban poverty and dysfunctional public transportation and sprawl cleaned up...and then when cleaned up they can be perhaps more like Disneylands and gun free zones...

It's kinda like some areas of Europe - perhaps Germany - where one has a pristine countryside connected to big urban centers. There are no billboards or sprawled out suburbs and dumping grounds stretching betweeen the urban areas... I also like what Germany has done in regard to highways/the autobahn ie. a special lane for trucks and open lanes for automobiles. In a sense that's the sort of reform I'd like to see applied to firearms ie. zones where you can wear a holstered revolver and walk about with a rifle over your shoulder, and places wear firearms are Verbotin. I'm afraid, if we don't get a grip on some of these things - if we fail to reform our urban areas and transportation systems...we will become a kind of violent wasteland where we have the worst of both worlds - both rural and urban.

In Russia there has been in recent years a spike in gun related crimes. Ironically, I would say it is mainly due to increased traffic/transportation problems. The highways/prospekts are much more congested and there is a spike of travel between rural and urban centers. One problem there is 'train robbers/bandits' who prey upon folks traveling by train from small Russian towns to big urban centers. Often and usually there is no firearm involved in these crimes - but it shows how transportation is always a big factor in crime.

I am always skeptical of 'legal' changes. Afterall, when Lenin came to power he helped form what was perhaps the most progressive and wonderful constitution ever written: it declared world peace, an end to secret negotiations involving war, equal rights to women, and the return of all fuedal lands to the people and declared the right to have a job... The problem was that the people for whom all these blessings legally fell upon were not accustomed to an open and democratic culture. They were accustomed to being oppresed by autocratic Tsars and nobles... In troublesome times, they turned to usurpers of power like Ivan the Terrible,and Joseph Stalin.

The USA has deeply embeded cultural ideas, and firearms are intertwined with America's history and frontier. Russia too has such a tradition ie. its far east is a vast frontier too. For America to make a really meaningful change in regard to gun control - it will have to do much more than pass a few laws; it will have to improve its culture. Improving one's culture - is never an easy task, but it's perhaps the best work one can do. :cool:
 
Welcome to the Magic Kingdom

Actually, I think the Disneyland metaphor is applicable. For example, when entering Disneyland - it's pretty much a given cultural norm that firearms and related weapons are forbidden. Is anyone really outraged that they can't enter the Magic Kingdom without a pistol or rifle? Does anyone feel insulted that they can't bring their Glock to church? I say this jokingly a bit ie. when I was a small child I was known to pitch a few fits for not being allowed to bring my cap guns to church! ;) And while Disneyland is a great metaphor we can picture in our minds - I also know of one nasty homicide that took place at one ie. a thug misperceived someone as breaking in line - and whirled around with a knive and stabbed the person to death. I don't offer paradise - but just the prospects of a culture where a person is perceived as deviant for bringing along a firearm.

Yet there are some major cities that do appear like Disneylands in comparisons to major American cities in regard to gun violence. The illusion that many Americans have - is that the violence they are used to in America is just a normal reality. In Moscow, I actually feel much less of a police presence than I do in most major US cities. A lot of this has to do with public transportation, urban sprawl and cultural attitudes about what is normal. The 'automobile' and 'public control of sidewalks and public transportation' is a huge factor. (About this time is usually the time I start getting flamed as a commie - but none of this really has anything to do with liberal/conservative/right/left inasmuch as it does with urban design and cultural norms...)

In the cities there is a gun culture that contrasts the gun culture found in rural environments. I don't like the urban gun culture ie. drive by shootings and kids growing up wanting a gun like the one they used in the latest video game. In rural environs there is a gun culture that I tend to respect. When I grew up I was shooting a 12 gauge by the age of 13 and was bringing home rabbits,squirrels and quail...to cook up in the iron skillet. Gadzooks, I even used a few steel traps and salted a few pelts. I remember walking down a country backroad with a holstered revolver and carrying a rifle over my shoulder. Yet, all those things out in the country were 'normal'. I learned a respect for wildlife and felt a bonding with nature. By contrast the urban gun culture is all about 'being tough because you have a gun' and 'combat'. I simply would like to increase the freedom of positive gun culture and decrease the freedom of negative/criminal gun culture.

The problem in the USA - is that the lines between rural and urban are blurred. The urban areas have sprawled across the landscape. I don't think one can begin to think of restricting guns from urban centers until the urban centers themselves have been improved by other reforms. I would simply like to see urban poverty and dysfunctional public transportation and sprawl cleaned up...and then when cleaned up they can be perhaps more like Disneylands and gun free zones...

It's kinda like some areas of Europe - perhaps Germany - where one has a pristine countryside connected to big urban centers. There are no billboards or sprawled out suburbs and dumping grounds stretching betweeen the urban areas... I also like what Germany has done in regard to highways/the autobahn ie. a special lane for trucks and open lanes for automobiles. In a sense that's the sort of reform I'd like to see applied to firearms ie. zones where you can wear a holstered revolver and walk about with a rifle over your shoulder, and places wear firearms are Verbotin. I'm afraid, if we don't get a grip on some of these things - if we fail to reform our urban areas and transportation systems...we will become a kind of violent wasteland where we have the worst of both worlds - both rural and urban.

In Russia there has been in recent years a spike in gun related crimes. Ironically, I would say it is mainly due to increased traffic/transportation problems. The highways/prospekts are much more congested and there is a spike of travel between rural and urban centers. One problem there is 'train robbers/bandits' who prey upon folks traveling by train from small Russian towns to big urban centers. Often and usually there is no firearm involved in these crimes - but it shows how transportation is always a big factor in crime.

I am always skeptical of 'legal' changes. Afterall, when Lenin came to power he helped form what was perhaps the most progressive and wonderful constitution ever written: it declared world peace, an end to secret negotiations involving war, equal rights to women, and the return of all fuedal lands to the people and declared the right to have a job... The problem was that the people for whom all these blessings legally fell upon were not accustomed to an open and democratic culture. They were accustomed to being oppresed by autocratic Tsars and nobles... In troublesome times, they turned to usurpers of power like Ivan the Terrible,and Joseph Stalin.

The USA has deeply embeded cultural ideas, and firearms are intertwined with America's history and frontier. Russia too has such a tradition ie. its far east is a vast frontier too. For America to make a really meaningful change in regard to gun control - it will have to do much more than pass a few laws; it will have to improve its culture. Improving one's culture - is never an easy task, but it's perhaps the best work one can do. :cool:
 
Curiouser and curiouser...

I am always skeptical of 'legal' changes. Afterall, when Lenin came to power he helped form what was perhaps the most progressive and wonderful constitution ever written: it declared world peace, an end to secret negotiations involving war, equal rights to women, and the return of all fuedal lands to the people and declared the right to have a job... The problem was that the people for whom all these blessings legally fell upon were not accustomed to an open and democratic culture. They were accustomed to being oppresed by autocratic Tsars and nobles... In troublesome times, they turned to usurpers of power like Ivan the Terrible,and Joseph Stalin.

Um. I'm having a terminal case of cognitive dissonance, trying to imagine explaining to the Founding Fathers why we threw the Second Amendment onto the garbage heap so we could all live in Disneyland.

But that is nothing in comparison to this quote. I think you may have fried my circuits altogether when you praised "Lenin's wonderful constitution" and made borscht of Russian history in that last sentence. Ivan wasn't a usurper of anything, he was the Tsar. I think you may possibly have Peter the (not so) Great in mind.

The Russian people had no chance to turn to anybody. The leaders of the Russian Revolution were cold-blooded killers who assassinated the Tsar and murdered his family in cold blood, then enslaved the nation. Lenin was no utopian gift to mankind. He gave no "open, democratic" anything.

A thousand years of Russian culture was oppressed and denied under the Communist boot. That culture was based on an autocratic political system that has almost nothing in common with our own history, philosophy,or culture. To look to Russia as a guide to our urban problems just makes no sense.

Springmom
 
Sad to the US Culture become so wicked and ignorant...

Ivan did usurp quite a bit of power! Need to brush up on some history !The killing of the Tsar was in the midst of a Civil War in which the US had forces on Russian soil. Tsarist supporters were fascistic and antisemitic. They were commiting War Crimes all over the countryside - and the Tsar was killed; his heirs were killed...and that was a great horror...and it was done to win the Civil War and to keep the Tsars from being brought to power. Nevertheless, I have never said that the USA should emulate Russia politically, but there is so much violent hatred and ignorance in the USA regarding Russia...that it's almost impossible to encounter an American who can think beyond his/her indoctrinated view. By contrast, in Europe and Russia more people have access to foreign media and are multilingual. I'm sorry if the streets are safer too - but that's a fact!

In regard to 'assasinations' and 'Lenin' - I'll just say that many recent US laws concerning firearms are the result of two dead Kennedy's, Martin Luther King jr.'s assasination , George Wallace's crippling, the attempted killings of Gerald Ford and the wounding of Ronald Reagan. Lenin died early on in the Russian Revolution. He tried to prevent much of the violence and destruction that spilled over into Civil War from WW1; he also tried to prevent Stalin from gaining power. We will have to agree to disagree...on some basic issues and basic facts.

I have not said that the USA should emulate Russia, but Russia and the USA are more alike than dissimular in many ways , especially in regard to geography and cultural influences in regard to gun control. I feel confident that Russia will continue to emulate much of Europe in these matters. I can see Moscow looking more toward London as a model rather than looking toward 'Dallas' or 'Atlanta' or 'Chicago'. New York, however, has made some real progress! Often New York is compared to London.

I've decided however to leave the firing line ie. there's just too many 'how to kill somebody or their dog posts'. I remember how Condi Rice(who doesn't actually speak fluent Russian, but is billed as such though her level of speaking it is sophmoric) loudly and wildly accused Russia of being totalitarian and barbaric(her exact words) for its actions against Chechnya.
She(a former OBL and mujihadeen supporter) did this while the USA was far from home bombing and invading Iraq.

I remember as Gorbachev was ending the Cold War and how he said to America: 'We are about to do something very mean to you; we are going to remove your enemy.' Those words ring ever truer in these times as the USA lashes out violently throughout the world... I remember Rumsfeld stating that this 'never ending war is to replace the Cold War'. I see a violent culture in the USA insensative to the violence on its streets as well as the streets of
war. The USA last year had more gun related homicides than the nations of Germany, the UK, Japan, France and Canada - combined.

Good-bye and Good-Luck. Peace




:D
 
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