Cultural vs. Legal Gun Control...

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DobermansDoItGoofy

New member
I've lived in big US cities and have lived in some Russian cities...and here's an observation: Russia has some strict gun control rules...but a lot of folks there have guns. I was in a city called Kemerovo in Siberia which is near Mongolia...and one of the first things I was asked by a friend of friend...was if I would like to go hunting! What amazed me though was that my friend Olga could walk the sidewalk at night without fear! She also walked to work each day and walked home for lunch each day. There is crime there and in some of the bigger cities - a lot of nasty crime... However, I have also lived in Atlanta - and Atlanta has some places that you NEVER IN YOUR RIGHT MIND EVEN THINK ABOUT WALKING DAY OR NIGHT. I can't speak for all of Europe or Russia but in quite a few metropolitan places there - I felt a lot safer than I do in a place like 'Atlanta'. Why? I don't think it's gun control inasmuch it's one other BIG CULTURAL DIFFERENCE. It's the automobile. In Russia and in Europe - people use the sidewalks and public transportation. The mainstream population RULES THE SIDEWALKS. The mainstream population RULES THE BUSES AND TRAINS. In the USA the sidewalks are abandoned to those people who don't have cars. The buses and trains are abandoned to those people who don't have cars. It has a domino effect ie. I don't walk to work or know the people who run businesses between my home and workplace - and I don't even know my neighbors - because I use an automobile. My great grandfather used to walk to work and sometimes he rode a bycycle to work. He met his neighbors and other nice mainstream folks along the way... It's still that way in Russia and a lot of other places. You could commit a gun crime on a Russian sidewalk - but you would definitly be in a lot of trouble! Incidentally, Russia has a problem with 'train robbers' ie. quite a few folks will travel from the countryside to major cities to earn better money - and the 'train robbers' are thugs who will come on board and try to get you drunk and rob you! They are bullies who board the trains... It's interesting how 'transportation' is always such a factor in certain crimes... Gun Control? I don't have the answer - but I notice a big difference between rural and urban attitudes towards guns. I grew up in a rural area where it was natural to have a gun and shoot at a deer from one's front porch. In such a place, I'd be angry if you were to even think of 'clamping down on my rights to bear arms'. However, I have lived in an urban area where a lot of folks had guns but didn't respect'em the way I was raised ie. street hoodlums/gangbangers/people who bought a gun for protection but who didn't know or care much about the firearms or realise the responsibility... In that environment - I can empathize with some gun control rules... In London, there's a camera on every street! I don't want a camera on every street. It reminds me of that old sci-fi, TV show 'The Prisoner'. What I think would help America in more ways than one would be a cultural change in regard to transportation ie. I'd love to see bullet trains crisscrossing America and I'd love to see a radical increase in the quality and quantity of public transportation - and I would like to see some gun control(think of it as in the case of airlines) where public transportation/mainstream commuting is 'gun free'. It would also allow people to have increased access to jobs. The trick is enhancing a sense of mainstream community so that the 'gun issue' itself falls into place naturally... Could it be that we need open-carry countysides but a strict 'no guns allowed zone' in the cities... I have always felt a greater police presence in the USA than I have in Russia - but again it goes back to the automobile ie. in the USA there's a lot of cops weaving in and out of traffic, watching every move and swaggering about at the drive-in 'convenience stores...' In Russia you might actually have met Vladamir or Igor and talked to him...and despite his AK47 and military camo.. he does not seem unordinairy or nearly as menacing as Buzzcut Bubba with his Glock and Nightstick...who you don't know at all...who spend all his time in a fast car looking you up on some database. :cool: Incidentally , the USA has per capita a larger prison population than most of the industrialized world. Some stats show Russia is #1 and some show the USA as #1(depends on how you factor in certain former Soviet Republics...) The USA however overwhelmingly has more gun-related homicides... Incidentally, Alabama has never had a liberal government and has churches on every street corner - but has the 3rd highest homicide rate of any US State. The other top two states are also NASCAR states! :D
 
In Russia and in Europe - people use the sidewalks and public transportation. The mainstream population RULES THE SIDEWALKS. The mainstream population RULES THE BUSES AND TRAINS. In the USA the sidewalks are abandoned to those people who don't have cars. The buses and trains are abandoned to those people who don't have cars. It has a domino effect
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Interesting observation. I'm inclined to agree with you.

Incidentally , the USA has per capita a larger prison population than most of the industrialized world.
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Yes, we have a culture of crime and violence. Some people see that as part of the "gun problem." I don't. I see it as mostly a gang problem, and drug problem.

I'd love to see statistics on USA violent crime, with drug-related crimes and gand-related crimes removed. My hunch is the result would be a lot lower than many other countries.
 
I'd love to see bullet trains crisscrossing America and I'd love to see a radical increase in the quality and quantity of public transportation - and I would like to see some gun control(think of it as in the case of airlines) where public transportation/mainstream commuting is 'gun free'. It would also allow people to have increased access to jobs. The trick is enhancing a sense of mainstream community so that the 'gun issue' itself falls into place naturally... Could it be that we need open-carry countysides but a strict 'no guns allowed zone' in the cities.
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At the beginning, it seems that you are placing some blame for urbanized crime in the U.S. on the fact that we don't "get to know" our neighbors between point A and point B, and the Russians do, so they have less on-the-street crime. (I can't even substantiate that claim, in the first place. I have been under the impression that violent crime and other economic crimes are spiking in the former Soviet Union.)

Then you say that you'd like to see bullet trains crisscrossing America. I thought that under your first premise, that would mean even less socializing with neighbors and thus more crime under your theory.

I sure as hell don't agree with your offensive offering that we need "gun-free zones." Maybe you have better, more thorough and reliable sources of information than I have, but to my knowledge there has never BEEN a so-called gun-free zone that actually WAS gun-free, anywhere in the world, since the invention of the firearm. WHERE has a gun-ban law succeeded in actually eradicating guns? Hell, even the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto -- of all people they were "supposed" to not be allowed to have guns, and they got hold of some.

And what makes you say that just because a person may have to take public transportation, he won't have need of a gun for protection between his home and the train, or the train and his destination? What's he supposed to do for a gun at those times, if he had to relieve himself of it just to be on the train for the middle portion of his journey?

To answer your question: NO. We do NOT need "no-gun cities," because as experience has shown us, every SINGLE TIME you attempt to institute a rule like that, the good people end up without guns, and the bad people end up with a monopoly on violent force.

For the life of me, I cannot fathom why you even find the subject debatable. That is so open-and-shut to me, it's not even funny.


-azurefly
 
It could also be that until the mid 70s Russia would send anyone that did not do what the government wanted to a prison camp where they would work until they died. (Gulag)

Also I would like to point out that Russia also has one of the lowest average life expectancy, its around what... 57. Where as the US its 74, so we get many more chances to get gunned down before over drinking or drug use gets us.

The US has some issues that only time will fix. Gangs exist because of some groups of people feeling cast off. Now if we had spent the last 80 years in forced equality (everyone gets nothing) instead of segregation we may not have the gang problems we do.
 
So, the reason the U.S. has a gang problem is because the whites were mean to the blacks and "cast them off"? :rolleyes:

Or is it because inner city blacks are being raised on a morally bankrupt "culture" that extols violence, materialism, misogyny, and hatred?
And white America can't stop telling them how COOL it is, actually -- that's the maddening part. Burger King advertises its meat-flavored patties to me with RAP. Toyota tries to sell me its cars with RAP. Tell me again how disenfranchised blacks are. Is Ice-T's car not worth four times what I make in a year, at least?? Yeah, the Man's been keeping him from succeeding. :rolleyes:

Tell me, do you think that these inner city blacks in the gangs would jump at the chance to earn $45,000 a year in an office, when they can reap many times that dealing drugs? I don't think that the main reason they're not working for Dean Witter is because white America has "cast them off."

The problem is not going to be solved here, I know that much at least.


-azurefly
 
Ah, the lovely Russians and their wacky hijinx! Of course they like gun control in the cities just as much as a disturbingly large proportion of them think that criminal activities are fine as long as they are the ones doing it.

The worst are the Ukrainians. I'm not even going to start on some of the ones I knew of and encountered in Knoxville. They brought it over here and were quite busy starting off the next generation in their adorable lil criminal traditions... and of course, universally anti-gun. Wouldn't want a relative to get shot while robbing people in the country that took them in, dontcha know. Best to just try and keep their nephew's potential victims from having means to defend themselves. He's such a good boy and sings in the choir and loves his mother's kasha.

As for Atlanta, I felt safer when I was boppin' around there than I do around shady eurotrash types. Must be because I watch hands, eyes and clothing instead of skin color.
 
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A larger per capita prison population may not mean a culture of crime and violence. It may be an indication of a culture of punishment and retribution for crimes committed.

I admit, however, even that can be taken too far. Speaking of the culture, as we collect more daily activities onto our list of crimes, elevate misdemeanors to felonies and move many state crimes to the federal level, our attitudes and treatment of those felons remains the same.

The name-calling is creating cultural and social divisions where they were previously blurred or at least tolerated. The language is changing. Gang. Fundamentalist. Felon. Arsenal. Assault weapon. Think we gunnies aren't guilty?

Just as a simple math exercise, strictly to make a point ... if half of all the misdemeanors were made felonies overnight, what would happen? We run out of prison space, we run out of corrections budget, we incarcerate more of the population, we have more felons and last but not least ... we have fewer people with unencumbered civil rights. People with never a thought of felonious intent, with a new title: felon. 'Sounds like a plan to me.:rolleyes:

Are you a member of a gang? Hmmmmm? Do you fit under the definition of RICO? Terrorist? Felon? Could you be grouped under those definitions with a simple decision of who you associate with? Could you be included under one of those definitions based on, standing in the middle of your own living room, what you hold in your hand? A material object with no intention of harm?

Before we start throwing names around, maybe we should think about our own vulnerability. What name could you be called? With which cultural/social group are you associated?
 
Bud is right

We tend to label....

One family comes here from .... Ukraine or where ever... and are criminals and so it's easy to see that everyone from there are crooks...

Blacks packed in poor urban areas create gangs and shoot each other over drugs... so all young black men are gang bangers....

Jews in Europe loan money to non Jews because the Power of the Christian church says their folks can't.... world war causes massive deppression... money is lost...who's fault is it?

I believe most people are good... if raized half way decent will know right from wrong has nothing to do with their race or religion. Just as gun control is not a solution to crime... making more prisons and hiring more police will not solve the problem.... teaching children through example what is right and giving them a safe place to live is the solution.
 
I think azurefly was pointing out that glorification (or at least mainstreaming)of anti-social behavior is no way to improve society. Whatever the underlying reasons for gangbanging, society should not hold it up as desirable or cool.
 
I'm talking about the entire second-tier Eastern European outlook on life and the double standards contained in it that pop up when they're here. I wouldn't make such comments without enough experience to know it wasn't just a bad family or two.

I think it comes from spending too much time under the soviets, this simultaneous belief that restricting guns is important and that it's ok to extort local businesses. I think my comment on wanting gun control so that relatives won't be injured by citizens defending themselves makes a lot of sense. Look at how the families of criminals always downplay the fact that their darling kid had free will and brought consequences on himself, it's always the fault of the police, or the elderly woman with the .32 in her purse, or more commonly, the fault of that evil gun.
 
Back to automobiles and alienation...

While I wish I was shocked by anti-Russian/Eastern Bloc and racial responses that are sadly too typical...I am of course not shocked, but just shrug it off...
In regard to 'Atlanta' there is another way of viewing its violence problems that is far more to the point: Atlanta suffers from being sprawled all over the map ie. the actual city of Atlanta has a population of about 300,000 but the suburbs and sprawl add another 2,000,000 to its population. The traffic congestion is horrible ie. some estimates I have read say that it in regard to traffic problems...that Atlanta is 2nd only to Los Angelos,Calif. The traffic woes, however, don't stop there ie. Atlanta is also hit by the problem of being a crossroads city on the major highway that runs from Miami to New York City. Atlanta is also the city that criminals from other major Southern cities tend to flee to when they become fugitives. Atlanta is also a major trucking center and the hub of the world's busiest airport. Crime drives and flies to Atlanta. Atlanta is a relatively new city and was designed on a grid like old cities like Chicago or New York. Sprawl is horrible in Atlanta; there are apartment complexes that stretch as far as the eye can see that a person can get lost in... Nobody knows there neighbors; many of the neighbors are in transit and nobody was born there... They are all dependent on automobiles to get back and forth to work, school and errands...and their 'community' is often less meaningful than the one they find on TV. When I worked in a maximum security environment I would check data bases...and I was always amazed at the number of drug dealers, violent felons/offenders...who listed these places as their 'home address'.
When I talk with people from other countries one of the commonest complaints I hear is what I call the 'Have a Nice Day Syndrome' ie. every drive-thru and every interviewer and every clerk is so danf superficially 'nice' one begins to think they are alien robots... ie. the question I am sometimes asked is 'Why are they always so nice and friendly and don't really mean it?' It's a good question! These are obviously people who get their 'community' on the 'radio/TV' and don't know their neighbors or spend enough time walking... :barf: Now, add 'guns' to these peoples' lives and 'guns' become part of that problem too... I'm not saying 'gun control' is a solution inasmuch 'cultural change' is needed. Russia is I think a good country to compare to the US in this regard because there are some simularities ie. both have gun laws that are hard to enforce, both have a wild west history ie. Siberia was/is a kind of wild west to Russia - a simular frontier experience, and large geographic multiethnic differences and 'sprawl'. Russia has experienced a recent surge in gun crimes - but part of the factor has been increased traffic problems and congestion in major cities.
Hmmmm... :eek:
 
hey buddy, if you like Russia so damned much, go a ahead and move there. We can do without gun-control advocate in America. "gun free zones"? you are speaking of a gun free utopian heaven called WASHINGTON DC and we all know how well that worked out.

never mind that Russia is so xenophobic that anyone off tint is gonna get a helluva time living there, so I hope you are pure Russian looking and speak good Russian!!! I sure the hell ain't going near that place since a yank don't fare well in pinko russia.
 
I'm not racist because of how I feel about uke (or any other other nationality) organized crime in the US.

I'm observant.

And you know what? More often than not, you get people coming here, enclaving, protecting the members of their culture who like controlling and operating crime, and then once they 'make it' to a point where their effect on society is somewhat legitimate, they start pushing for gun control.

You can see it happening down the line from the 1920s to today when it comes to one of the largest root bases of gun control.
 
Yawning...

Actually Russia is quite friendly - but there are many friendly places.
For example there is a Russian population in London of about 500,000 and in Atlanta about 5,000. Yeah, I like Russia! However, to say that I like it doesn't mean I hate every other place. Also, if a person really likes America - it ought to not be based on a hatred or ignorant contempt for other countries... When I lived in Russia I knew quite a few Russians who spoke english and I also watched CNN and Russian and European News quite frequently there. Xenophobia? It can be found anywhere and in a sense it's up to the visitor to break the ice too! I remember visiting Kemerovo in Siberia and the police chief there invited me to a nice Banya(a kind of Sauna with a little vodka too!) People are people! There are actually more indep.news stations in Russia than in the USA. However, I would say Russia has violent crime and gun problems that are simular to the US. There are other countries that are better in regard to gun control and gun violence than either Russia or the USA - but those other countries have bigger cultural differences ie. smaller geographic area, far more centralized cities with far less sprawl... The UK. would be an example. Germany also would be an example. A recent world health study recently noted that while Canada and the USA have had an 'up and down fluctuation' in violent gun-related deaths that some countries such as the U.K. had remained 'very steady'. There are lots of little cultural factors... For example, I might not be able to easily buy a pistol in Germany...but I can drive a Porsche there on the highway at 150mph, stop at a movie theatre and drink a beer while watching the film...and speculate if I'm more or less free than someone in the USA?
There's more to 'freedom' than the right to buy a highly registered and traceable gun at Wal-Mart. There are other cultural aspects, and culture is constantly changing... For example prior to about 1972 a US citizen could just board a US Airliner with a handgun in one's carry-on baggage without it being against the law; I like some forms of gun control!!!! Don't you?
:D
 
Doberman,
Are you trying to say that because people are relatively strangers to those who live near them (their neighbors), when they get guns, they murder those people just because they don't have a sense of "community"?


'Cause if that's where you're going with this, even though I can see your point a little bit, I would be very hesitant to attribute the murder problem to lack of a sense of community. One does not lose one's MORALITY just because one's community is not tightly knit.


-azurefly
 
Heist said:
You can see it happening down the line from the 1920s to today when it comes to one of the largest root bases of gun control.
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You mean like the Irish?

First, the Kennedys get rich off criminal behavior (bootlegging, which I can't be fully opposed to because it was a populist reaction to the atrocity that was Prohibition); they make their fortune from crime, and I have no doubts that the Kennedys' crime syndicate used guns at some point; and now Ted Kennedy is a big loudmouth gun control advocate. :barf:

-azurefly
 
For example prior to about 1972 a US citizen could just board a US Airliner with a handgun in one's carry-on baggage without it being against the law; I like some forms of gun control!!!! Don't you?
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Why? Do you believe that anyone would think to try to do violence or hijacking on an airliner knowing that anybody else could (and probably at least a few would) also have a gun?? :rolleyes:

As it stands now, the only people who will have a gun on a plane WILL be the BAD guys; because no good guys actually try to smuggle an illegal gun onto a plane.

Oh, "sky marshals"? :rolleyes: Yeah, the day you're on a plane with a sky marshal, you better go buy a g/d Lotto ticket. :barf:


-azurefly
 
DobermansDoItGoofy said:
MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT
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Do you suppose you could space out your massive walls of text a little bit, please?

It really does do a lot to make them more legible.
 
If Russia was the best thing since sliced bread why do you still live in Atlanta?

There has to be some reason you left the best country in the world (so it seems) to come to this gun infested non-community based hell hole.... Right?

I live in Florida and I always hear people from New York or New Jersey saying "Oh it's so much better in NY (or NJ)" I then say something like "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE MOVE THE HELL BACK TO NEW YORK"

Oh that reminds me of an old joke, it goes something like:

A reporter is interviewing a man that just moved to the US from Russia

Reporter: "So you just moved here from Russia. How was the dining there?

Man: "I can't complain"

Reporter: "Well than how was the housing there?"

Man: "I can't complain"

Reporter: "So how was your employment there?"

Man: "I can't complain"

Reporter: "So why is it you moved here if you can't complain about anything in Russia?"

Man: "Because here I can complain!"
 
Csspecs,
Cute. I like that one. You can use it against Cuba, too. China as well, I guess. Nothing like a versatile joke, and a clever one, at that! :)

Thanks for sharing it.


-azurefly
 
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