Cuba's army.

So, in theory my communist neighbor can come over to my house and eat my food if he's hungry because it's not actually my house or my food? And that sounds good? Actually, I kinda live like that now. My welfare-leech neighbor not only gets a portion of my paycheck every month to pay for his food and section 8 housing, but he feels that my yard tools are available for his use whenever he sees fit. Sorry, based on my personal experience with communism, I'll stick with anarchy.

Of course not because you and your neighbor don't live in communist nations. But if you chose to live in a communist state then it's exactly what you would expect. It's unlikely it would ever happen because your neighbor would have the exact same amount and type of food you did, thus it'd be just as likely that you'd go over to his house and eat his food.

Sorry, but that's not personal experience with communism. I don't like welfare any more than you do, but it's not communism. It's a bit of socialism in our society though.
 
Rebar: I don't think anyone is saying we wish the world were all Communist. I am putting words in his mouth here (correct me if I am wrong redworm), but I think redworm is only trying to give a fair and honest assessment of the system. That's all I am trying to do too - you don't see me moving to Russia, do you? And it's Capitalist now, even - the good guys! ;)

Communism has it's inevitable problems. But I don't believe that *all* of the problems that were observed were inevitable. I think that to see it clearly, you need to separate the personalities of leaders like Stalin and Lenin from the abstract philosophy.

What Stalin did to the Ukrainians for example was couched as an experiment in "planned production"... but he really wasn't interested in any such experiment - he was a brutal guy who wanted to subjugate the Ukrainian people who were chafing under Russian rule, so he did that by creating conditions for a massive famine there to break their spirit. People who tried to avoid the experiment were shot by inspectors who searched for food. My wife's grandfather was killed. The plan worked. But that is Stalin, it's not a Communist ideal to do that to people. He just used some political mumbo jumbo to justify his actions, but they weren't actually justified.
 
Communism 101 from Professor Redworm:

Just because communism hasn't been put in place by a benevolent group doesn't mean it can't be done. Socialism has worked, communism can too.

Wow! Really? Sign me up! Oh wait! No country has EVER pulled it off? Man, that must really suck. I am sure there is some country somewhere. Oh wait, maybe France. Nope! 10% unemployment and rising steadily. Need I go on?

00 million citizens killed by corrupt communist governments. Blaming communism for those deaths is akin to what people say about guns. The fault lies in the people that abuse communism, not in the theory itself.

Uh, communism is a government and an idea. A gun is an object. FYI.

The basis behind communism is communal ownership, not dictatorship.

Darn, it never works out that way. That whole thing about power... By the way, have you ever met a communist government that believes in civil rights?.........I thought not.

And more notable quotes from Professor Redworm:

In theory, everyone shares and gets along. In theory there's no crime because everything is owned by everyone and there's no need for crime. In theory everyone is equal and treated fairly.

No need for crime? What if you have what I want? We both can't have your car at the same time now can we?

Well I could easily say the same about being so narrow minded that you refuse to see a different point of view.

Oh, we have seen the different point of view. In fact, last time I checked, China was a communist country slowly slipping out of communism. The USSR is gone and cuba is slowly dying. If Venezuala did not have gobs of oil, it would be gone too. That leaves good ol' America.

In case anybody is upset at me, remember, Professor Redworm speaks truth:

yeah I have an excuse, I'm still a kid
 
Right but that doesn't make your opinion any more or less important than mine. ;)

At the very least refute what I say with actual arguments.

Since when is France communist? :confused:

Yes, communism is an idea and a gun is an object. Neither one can kill without a person intending to kill wielding that object or idea. Communism has never killed a single person because ideas cannot be fatal. People kill each other.

So just because there hasn't been a communist government that cares about civil liberties means there can't be one?

If I have something you want then it's obvious you don't want to be communist and don't belong in a communist society. But what about people that do? What about someone that doesn't mind picming out the same type of beige car from a communal parking lot? What's the harm if everyone agrees to share?

Again, the problem is people, not the idea.


Now if you really think my assertion that I'm still just a kid invalidates my opinions in any way, you've got another thing comin'. I may be inexperienced and in many ways naive but again, that doesn't invalidate my opinions just because you don't agree with them.

edit: and the "professor" thing is real mature....glad there's wise old coots like you around to teach youngins like me some manners :D
 
Ask yourself what would happen if Lenin murdered the Czars and established a Capitalist democracy. Do you think Lenin would have setup an honest system that would be responsive to the people?

Russia is now Capitallist, and a democracy - but, is it responsive to it's people? Do they have freedom of information? of speech? Is anyone free to challenge Mr. Putin for office? (seems like the likely candidates become the likely suspects and wind up in jail) :D Putin is no Stalin/Lenin, but he sure as heck isn't making life better for his people. Look how far China has come in the last decade... then look where Russia has gone. Russia is on the wrong track. Not because they are Capitalist/democratic, but because they are poorly led. Their leader is pursing self-interest rather than national interest.
 
Redworm. Wow, you crack me up. Next time, please pick a real losing battle like, say, America converting to a monarchy.

And no, france is socialist. FYI.
 
Did you read my posts?

Sorry, I am not going to argue with someone who flirted with the cheerleaders in History class. Actually, I am not surprised that the school more than likely taught you this fairytale you probagate here. So, if you can show PROOF for any fantasy you would like to argue here, I am more than happy to debate. Until then, good luck finding your utopia. For me, I will take personal freedom and free enterprise. Thank you very much.
 
No, I paid attention in history. I just have an open enough mind not to simply accept what people tell me just because they say they're right.

Proof of what? You understand the concepts of communism, right? What part says that people have to die? What part says that it has to be ruled by evil dictators?

You're not happy to debate, you just want to read me lines of the same old rhetoric just like all the history teachers that would ignore questions to preconcieved notions and simply carry on with the established cirriculum because that's what they were hired to do.

I like personal freedom and free enterprise just as much as you do. But I believe others have the personal freedom to choose a society in which they share with other people who feel the same way they do. If you don't allow people that simply because you don't agree with the ideology....then are you really advocating personal freedoms or just your personal freedom?
 
How about the communist governments actually poll the people to see what they want? Oh wait. I doubt they are going to do that. Look, do I want to live fat and happy and you do half my work? Sure. Who doesn't. But here in the real world, it works different. If you want to choose something different, there are many other countries to choose from who have the style of government you oh so desire.
 
Nowadays, unemployment is skyhigh, and even many people who do have jobs for the government/military are not paid, or paid only sporadically and partially. Pensioners don't receive their checks or recieve short checks. That's what I am talking about when I mean security.

4.9% is sky high (the last figure I heard this afternoon)? Also, it is much easier to give a person a job, when the company is owned by the state, not always producing something of value (setting nail quotas based on weight makes nail factory turn out railroad spikes, is an example I get alot), and certainly not competing with anyone.

People not paid for the work they do? (I think I would have heard these complaints)

Don;t know about the pensioners, but my guess is if they wern't geting the money, they would be in the same category as those not getting paid.

Out of curiosity...if a person chooses that existence, how can it be evil? To deprive someone of the choice to live in a communist society violates their freedoms, no?

It is bad. So is erecting walls and guard towers and prohibiting people from leaving Paradise.

Ask yourself what would happen if Lenin murdered the Czars and established a Capitalist democracy. Do you think Lenin would have setup an honest system that would be responsive to the people?

From what I understand, near the end, Lenin realized he screwed up, and started to revert some things back to capitalism. Then Stalin came in and clamped down.

The basis behind communism is communal ownership, not dictatorship.

Yep, but with more than a few dozen people, it is kinda hard to have communal ownership without someone directing the supplies.

Just because communism hasn't been put in place by a benevolent group doesn't mean it can't be done. Socialism has worked, communism can too.

It may work, it may not. So far, it hasn't. Of course, to prove something can never work, you must never have an example where it did work. I can't prove that it won't work, but I can prove that the likelihood of it working is low.
 
Interesting discussion.
However, I have what may turn out to be a rather naive question.
Why didn't we just take the damn place, capture Castro and shoot him along with his cronies?? I mean, it's just an island and we already have a military presence there??!! Even if we had done it after the Bay of Pigs, what were the Soviets gunna do?? Risk nuclear war over a two bit commie dictator on a small island?? Especially after the Cuban missile crisis where we basically told them that if they so much as set off a firecracker there, we were going to blow them and Cuba to hell!! Hell, we would have had the thing over and done with before the Russians could even get their ships out of Kiev harbor!!This embargo thing always seemed to me to be silly!!

By the way, I've been pining for a good Cuban cigar for years!!
 
It's unlikely it would ever happen because your neighbor would have the exact same amount and type of food you did, thus it'd be just as likely that you'd go over to his house and eat his food.

Sorry, but that's not personal experience with communism. I don't like welfare any more than you do, but it's not communism. It's a bit of socialism in our society though.
It is very likely that differences will exist between neighbors, even in an "ideal" communist society. If my neighbor leaves his oven alone too long and burns his government-issued potroast he will not have the same amount of food as me. In your world that means he is expected to come over to my house and eat my food. Of course, that means that he and I are both now below the level of everyone else in the neighborhood.

What happens during a disaster? If the US were a perfect communist state right now, what would be going on? It would be the duty of every single citizen to contribute to the relief effort in some fashion. Since the government would have to control supply of everything to make sure everybody got equal amounts they could simply divert my food to the people in NO.

Communism may work on a small scale, it may even be the ideal system for a community of a few dozen or a couple hundred, but it cannot work on a national scale. Regions of the country differ so dramatically in what they produce and how much they consume that it would be silly to try and treat them all the same. There would have to be government agents on every orchard in Florida to make sure that all the oranges made it to the central dispatch facility. Then more agents would make sure that every town in the country got it's quota of oranges. Agents in every town would have to make sure these oranges were evenly distributed to the population.

There would be much silliness practiced in the name of equality. People in Florida and Hawaii would receive their annual allotment of heating oil for the winter, the same amount as people in Alaska.

The government would be required to keep very close tabs on citizens to make sure they were getting everything the government determined they needed, but not getting more than anybody else.

There is simply no way for large-scale communism to avoid becoming dictatorial like the USSR or China. Anytime you force equality on people you have to put in place the structure to make sure people stay equal. That means that somebody has to make decisions about what is equal and how much of each item people require. That means people will be punished for trying to provide for themselves.
 
How about the communist governments actually poll the people to see what they want? Oh wait. I doubt they are going to do that. Look, do I want to live fat and happy and you do half my work? Sure. Who doesn't. But here in the real world, it works different. If you want to choose something different, there are many other countries to choose from who have the style of government you oh so desire.

As much as I'm sure we all appreciate a condecending attitude like yours, you need to go back and read what I've said. Show me where I've claimed to want a government like that and I'll eat my cell phone. :)
 
The real reason that we sent troops to liberate a country on the other side of the world, and ignored the oppressed one 96 miles away, is money. MONEY not POLITICS.

The sugar industry has so much power over both democrats and republicans that our govt has become impotent where it concerns Cuba. Cuba, if liberated and trade were to be re-opened, would threaten big sugars' 300% commercial rape of the American consumer.

Sugar imports are tightly quotaed into the USA, causing the price of sugar to average 21 cents a pound (commercially) vs the average of 7 cents a pound world wide. Big sugar is a near monopoly as well, held by the Fanjul Brothers. The largest import quota from any other country is from the Dominican Republic IIRC, and the Fanjul Brothers even own that sugar as well.

Liberating Cuba would be a step towards their loss of control of a grossly bloated empire based on artificially inflated prices facilitated by our own elected officials. If we liberate Cuba, would we ban their number one export to our shores, which would be sugar? Possibly we would allow them to import that product to help get them on their feet, and the sugar monopoly doesn't want us to start them down that slippery slope of - egads - competition.

Don't kid yourselves, the continued oppression of the Cuban people is largely a result of the Fanjul brothers having their hands in the pants of the democrats and the republicans - and has not much to do with politics or ideology.

For sources go to google, and type in Fanjul Cuba Sugar and become privy to one of the most corrupt, yet open, secrets of the impotence of Washington DC.
 
Don't kid yourselves, the continued oppression of the Cuban people is largely a result of the Fanjul brothers having their hands in the pants of the democrats and the republicans - and has not much to do with politics or ideology.
What nonsense.

The oppression of the Cuban people is by the corrupt socialist Cuban government. No one else. Why some people insist that the plight of the Cuban people is the fault of everyone except their government, is a mystery to me. Not America, not "big sugar", not "big oil". Castro.
 
What nonsense. The oppression of the Cuban people is by the corrupt socialist Cuban government.

You are 100% correct. What you have said is accurate and exactly right. It is, however, a comment that makes a distinction without a difference regarding what I was saying.

What I am saying is that without the sugar monopoly, there is a very good chance that we would have liberated Cuba from oppression by Castro. If we are so gung-ho to create democracies on the other side of the world, then surely we would have created a democracy 96 miles away. Castro's continuing oppression of Cuba, is due in no small part to the monetary interests of big sugar.
 
What I am saying is that without the sugar monopoly, there is a very good chance that we would have liberated Cuba from oppression by Castro.

Wow....

Golly, do you remmeber the Bay of Pigs? We tried, in our bumbling half arsed way, to liberate them...having failed, we turned to bigger and better things, and left castro in the backburner to sink in his own quagmire......a quagmire we made worse to please the cuban voting bloc

I generally find that these "exposes" on the net of "control" over events by the 'rich" dont have a lot to do with reality.

WildtinfoilAlaska
 
Wow....
Golly, do you remmeber the Bay of Pigs? We tried, in our bumbling half arsed way, to liberate them...having failed, we turned to bigger and better things, and left castro in the backburner to sink in his own quagmire......a quagmire we made worse to please the cuban voting bloc
I generally find that these "exposes" on the net of "control" over events by the 'rich" dont have a lot to do with reality.

I do remember. It was Kennedy administration and it was indeed a very poor plan that was very poorly implemented. Interestingly, the pitiful little invasion ocurred just after Castro nationalized $1 billion worth of sugar plantations that were owned by American interests.

I generally find that these "exposes" on the net of "control" over events by the 'rich" dont have a lot to do with reality.

Read, read, read. This isn't a conspiracy theory that the masonic lodge controls some other secret society that controls some other secret society that trained Oswald... ad nauseum.

What does the Cuban voting bloc want? They want Cuba to be free. Name one Cuban voting bloc in the USA that proposes that Cuba should remain under Castro's oppression. The Cuban voting bloc would support a Military Intervention in Cuba in a hearbeat.

If it isn't about money, and if we are liberating Iraq, and if the Cuban voting bloc wants Cuba liberated, and Cuba is a dangerous dictatorship 90 miles away and oppressing good people, and we have a Military base established in Cuba that makes Military Intervention feasible, then explain to me why we aren't going to liberate Cuba? What is your non-money theory?
 
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