CharlieDeltaJuliet
New member
I have a Sig C3 1911 CT Edition. It is great. I love the Crimson Trace grips on it. I do think that it would be a plus in almost any self defense situation.
Crimson Trace with Carry -- A Tactical Advantage?
- Thread starter j3ffr0
- Start date
For me, the laser comes on when I squeeze the gun. In a well lit room, I can put the laser on target quicker than I can the iron sights of my LCP. In a dimly lit room, the laser is much, much faster. Right now with the overcast outside the laser is still faster than my iron sights on trees in the yard (but not by much). On a sunny day outside, I'd have to see iron sights would be probably be as good or better for me.
I respectfully disagree. I feel like there is a big difference between getting a shot on the paper (hitting a BG in the arm) and putting one center mass.
True enough in a desert or on the plains. We don't have much of that here on the east coast. Especially in places where violence is more likely, I will almost always be able to see my dot. Of course the iron sights are back-up, but it takes me longer to acquire them anyway than the laser dot anyway.
Curiously enough, I've tried a red dot sight on one of my pistols. I prefer iron to the red dot. However, that pistol has nice big block sights, and they actually point to where the gun shoots -- which is different from my LCP.
I respectfully disagree. I feel like there is a big difference between getting a shot on the paper (hitting a BG in the arm) and putting one center mass.
True enough in a desert or on the plains. We don't have much of that here on the east coast. Especially in places where violence is more likely, I will almost always be able to see my dot. Of course the iron sights are back-up, but it takes me longer to acquire them anyway than the laser dot anyway.
Curiously enough, I've tried a red dot sight on one of my pistols. I prefer iron to the red dot. However, that pistol has nice big block sights, and they actually point to where the gun shoots -- which is different from my LCP.
The difference between a red dot sight, such as my Aimpoints and Ultradot and a laser sight such as my Crimson Trace Laser grips is substantial. Any laser sight projects a laser beam onto the target with a red or green dot aiming point on the target which is necessary for accurate shooting,,,but also lets anyone know who can also see the red dot on the target that you are there. If they can also see the illuminated red dot on the grips of your handgun and your head is immediately behind the handgun, just like a flashlight mounted on a handgun if they fire at the laser or the light, you might lose your marbles.
On a red dot scope or a regular scope with an illuminated reticle, nothing is projected outside of the scope itself and onto the target. I have taken red dot scopes and regular scopes with an illuminated reticle into a darkened room, and making sure the rifle or handgun was unloaded, looked at them from the muzzle end of the handgun or rifle…According to the owner’s manuel this is safe to do and will not harm your eyes as opposed to a laser which will harm your eyes. I can adjust the red dot sight or the illuminated reticle on a regular scope down to the point that I can easily see it through the scope but from the muzzle end of the pistol or the rifle I cannot see it,,,there is no red dot or red glow or red halo to increase your signature or give your position away. That is important to me.
While it is cool to watch videos of professional military or law enforcement teams breaking down doors and clearing rooms with flashlights and lasers all over the place, they are paid professionals doing their jobs, I am a civilian now and I do not have a Kevlar helmet or a bulletproof vest, a radio to call for additional backup or medical services, and three or four buddies or at least one buddy acting as my slack man as backup as I take the point position.
As a civilian it is extremely important to me not only to avoid trouble but also to avoid detection,,,a laser red or green dot bouncing off the walls or ceiling or floor or furniture just does’nt cut it.
And as many low light situations unfortunately require the use of white light for proper target identification, so you don't kill a friendly, once you use the white light or flashlight the use of a laser red dot or irons with the additional light, becomes pretty much equal.
On a red dot scope or a regular scope with an illuminated reticle, nothing is projected outside of the scope itself and onto the target. I have taken red dot scopes and regular scopes with an illuminated reticle into a darkened room, and making sure the rifle or handgun was unloaded, looked at them from the muzzle end of the handgun or rifle…According to the owner’s manuel this is safe to do and will not harm your eyes as opposed to a laser which will harm your eyes. I can adjust the red dot sight or the illuminated reticle on a regular scope down to the point that I can easily see it through the scope but from the muzzle end of the pistol or the rifle I cannot see it,,,there is no red dot or red glow or red halo to increase your signature or give your position away. That is important to me.
While it is cool to watch videos of professional military or law enforcement teams breaking down doors and clearing rooms with flashlights and lasers all over the place, they are paid professionals doing their jobs, I am a civilian now and I do not have a Kevlar helmet or a bulletproof vest, a radio to call for additional backup or medical services, and three or four buddies or at least one buddy acting as my slack man as backup as I take the point position.
As a civilian it is extremely important to me not only to avoid trouble but also to avoid detection,,,a laser red or green dot bouncing off the walls or ceiling or floor or furniture just does’nt cut it.
And as many low light situations unfortunately require the use of white light for proper target identification, so you don't kill a friendly, once you use the white light or flashlight the use of a laser red dot or irons with the additional light, becomes pretty much equal.
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I will be doing none of this with my carry gun, there is only one reason I will pull out my carry gun, if I fully intend to fire it. If there are doors that need breaking down and rooms that need clearing a carry piece would not be a good choice. We have strayed way off from the topic of this thread so I guess I'm done here.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503083&page=2
The above link shows a ballistic shield with a clear ballistic window, here is where a laser sight really comes into its own, you can look through the ballistic window while keeping your head and body behind the cover of the ballistic shield with only your hand holding the handgun exposed, with iron sights or a red dot or a scope since your head is not behind the handgun they are useless and you have to point shoot in this situation, with a red dot laser you can be on target while allmost totally protected.
Another situation where a red dot laser would shine is where for some reason you cannot get your head behind the handgun to use the iron sights or red dot scope or regular scope lets say you are disabled or injured or in a car accident, if you can see the target instead of point shooting you can now engage the target with the red dot laser.
I point out above that if someone shoots at the red dot laser on your gun or the flashlight on your gun you could suffer a headshot, however using a flashlight on your pistol to identify and illuminate the target while using the red dot laser on your handgun to accurately engage the target means you can keep the handgun away from your head and body saving them from incoming rounds.
I point out in one of my other posts that the red dot of the laser on walls or ceiling or floor or furniture would give your position away, I suppose you could train to not grip the handgun tightly enough for the red dot to engage and project until you are ready to shoot. It would be nice to have a flashlight and red dot laser light where one button controlled both,,, blinking them on and off at the same time.
The red dot laser will help if you have trouble with iron sights due to eye problems and even if you have eagle eyes if the red dot you feel gives you an edge and confidence then by all means use it, in a defensive situation you need confidence in yourself and your abilities and your hardware.
Lastly I have three Crimson Trace Laser grips, they are a solid company and the product is solid, mine work well, were easy to install and sight in and have held zero.
Bottom line you have to weigh the pros and cons yourself, and no matter what anyone thinks including myself, if you are happy with your decision to use red dot laser sights or to not use red dot laser sights, that is all that really matters.
The above link shows a ballistic shield with a clear ballistic window, here is where a laser sight really comes into its own, you can look through the ballistic window while keeping your head and body behind the cover of the ballistic shield with only your hand holding the handgun exposed, with iron sights or a red dot or a scope since your head is not behind the handgun they are useless and you have to point shoot in this situation, with a red dot laser you can be on target while allmost totally protected.
Another situation where a red dot laser would shine is where for some reason you cannot get your head behind the handgun to use the iron sights or red dot scope or regular scope lets say you are disabled or injured or in a car accident, if you can see the target instead of point shooting you can now engage the target with the red dot laser.
I point out above that if someone shoots at the red dot laser on your gun or the flashlight on your gun you could suffer a headshot, however using a flashlight on your pistol to identify and illuminate the target while using the red dot laser on your handgun to accurately engage the target means you can keep the handgun away from your head and body saving them from incoming rounds.
I point out in one of my other posts that the red dot of the laser on walls or ceiling or floor or furniture would give your position away, I suppose you could train to not grip the handgun tightly enough for the red dot to engage and project until you are ready to shoot. It would be nice to have a flashlight and red dot laser light where one button controlled both,,, blinking them on and off at the same time.
The red dot laser will help if you have trouble with iron sights due to eye problems and even if you have eagle eyes if the red dot you feel gives you an edge and confidence then by all means use it, in a defensive situation you need confidence in yourself and your abilities and your hardware.
Lastly I have three Crimson Trace Laser grips, they are a solid company and the product is solid, mine work well, were easy to install and sight in and have held zero.
Bottom line you have to weigh the pros and cons yourself, and no matter what anyone thinks including myself, if you are happy with your decision to use red dot laser sights or to not use red dot laser sights, that is all that really matters.
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valleyforge.1777
New member
What you don't hear very much at all is "I had them on my carry gun and I took them off and I am happier to NOT have them on my gun." No, you sure as heck don't hear that very much (if ever). Yes, if you have the laser, and if you only train to look for the laser dot and then fire you will probably be slower. Assuming you are not law enforcement, not military but some average guy who lives an average middle class life (go to work, come home, stop for gas, go to the mall or the shopping center, sometimes go out for dinner, walk through parking lots, etc) you will face violence mostly as the result of an opportunistic violent criminal attack. It will be up close and very personal. Iron sights will not be a factor. When I train with my guns, I might have three or four shots off before my eyes are looking for the dot from the laser. At that point, I am moving, feet in motion while finger continues to press trigger to the rear to fire more shots at "bad guy" (target). At that point, my laser gives me some additional info about where the gun is pointing relative to the location of the bad guy. It is tempting to train just to look for the laser dot and fire, but that temptation has to be managed. As Michael Bane says, "I want suspenders, a belt, and duct tape!" No reason not to throw every advantage into the mix if practical for still being able to holster and carry the gun.
As a dedicated and enthusiastic user of the Crimson Trace lasers, I will also say that the coming revolution in mini-red dot sites for carry guns is going to be a game changer. I have tried a few and did not like them but the technology is progressing rapidly and they will likely replace iron sights on carry guns to a large extent, within our lifetimes, probably before the decade is out. They might not replace lasers, but they might make lasers a lot less of an advantage. Time will tell, but one thing that is definitely going down in terms of being considered a resource is iron sights on carry guns. Give it ten years before you proclaim me wrong, because I told you that this will happen gradually over time.
Who would have thought even as recently as 2005 that manufacturers would be selling AR-15's without any sights on them at all (since they know that many users will equip the rifle with a red dot or other optical sight system)?
As a dedicated and enthusiastic user of the Crimson Trace lasers, I will also say that the coming revolution in mini-red dot sites for carry guns is going to be a game changer. I have tried a few and did not like them but the technology is progressing rapidly and they will likely replace iron sights on carry guns to a large extent, within our lifetimes, probably before the decade is out. They might not replace lasers, but they might make lasers a lot less of an advantage. Time will tell, but one thing that is definitely going down in terms of being considered a resource is iron sights on carry guns. Give it ten years before you proclaim me wrong, because I told you that this will happen gradually over time.
Who would have thought even as recently as 2005 that manufacturers would be selling AR-15's without any sights on them at all (since they know that many users will equip the rifle with a red dot or other optical sight system)?
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You may not hear it often, but you do hear it.
I had them on two carry guns (Correction, 3 guns). I now own same or close versions of those same guns, sans lasers (442 and MK9). (Correction, I don't currently have an SP101.)
Gave one to my parents (442), sold one to a friend (PM9), sold one to a co-worker (SP101).
I understand the potential advantages to them; I also know from practicing side by side that in most conditions, I am faster without the laser.
I had them on two carry guns (Correction, 3 guns). I now own same or close versions of those same guns, sans lasers (442 and MK9). (Correction, I don't currently have an SP101.)
Gave one to my parents (442), sold one to a friend (PM9), sold one to a co-worker (SP101).
I understand the potential advantages to them; I also know from practicing side by side that in most conditions, I am faster without the laser.
Laser Sights
The expert (LEO, Military) shooters here, and those able to spend alot of time and money training should take a step back for a moment and recall their early days with firearms.
There is a well-known physiological reaction that I expect will work against me in a real-world defensive situation, and this is the Body Alarm Response. Visual acuity issues and "target fixation" play a major role and we are wise to understand what is surely going to happen. I believe that (specifically) the Crimson Trace laser with automatic activation of the grip switch will be helpful for most of us at that time if it has been used as a training aid.
Realistically, range training helps us operate the weapon competently but does very little to prepare us for the "BAR". The ranges I go to won't even let you draw from a holster and fire. If you are willing and able to shoot in competition and train in an environment where a significant amount of stress can be introduced, then I think a laser aid could become less of a factor.
I have been shooting casually for many years - shot/bought my first handgun in 1975. I have not been hunting or anything since my Boy Scout days, so guns for me are strictly for defensive purposes. When I started thinking about concealed carry, the guy at my LGS convinced me to buy a Ruger LCR with the CT laser grip. At his direction, before even taking it to the range, I broke it in and practiced trigger control with it dry-firing while aiming at a light switch in the family room.
As a result, activating the laser is second nature for me and I shoot the LCR better (more accurately) than I do my SW 65 which I've owned for more than 30 years. Earlier this year I bought a Sig P290 with the Sig Laser and it's also useful - if I remember to reach out with my trigger finger or use my weak hand thumb to turn it on. Executiuon is everything. I doubt that it would be useful in a stressfull situation and am probably just going to take it off. The upside is the 290 carries more rounds and is much easier/faster to reload so I guess it boils down to shooting 5 accurate shots vs maybe 15 not so accurate.
I may step up my training by participating in IPDA in the near future. Not sure what else I can do in my area given my time and budget.
Thanks and the contributors to this forum have also been a great aid for me, and if I ever have to use a firearm to protect my or anyone elses' life my success will be largely due to the guidance received here.
The expert (LEO, Military) shooters here, and those able to spend alot of time and money training should take a step back for a moment and recall their early days with firearms.
There is a well-known physiological reaction that I expect will work against me in a real-world defensive situation, and this is the Body Alarm Response. Visual acuity issues and "target fixation" play a major role and we are wise to understand what is surely going to happen. I believe that (specifically) the Crimson Trace laser with automatic activation of the grip switch will be helpful for most of us at that time if it has been used as a training aid.
Realistically, range training helps us operate the weapon competently but does very little to prepare us for the "BAR". The ranges I go to won't even let you draw from a holster and fire. If you are willing and able to shoot in competition and train in an environment where a significant amount of stress can be introduced, then I think a laser aid could become less of a factor.
I have been shooting casually for many years - shot/bought my first handgun in 1975. I have not been hunting or anything since my Boy Scout days, so guns for me are strictly for defensive purposes. When I started thinking about concealed carry, the guy at my LGS convinced me to buy a Ruger LCR with the CT laser grip. At his direction, before even taking it to the range, I broke it in and practiced trigger control with it dry-firing while aiming at a light switch in the family room.
As a result, activating the laser is second nature for me and I shoot the LCR better (more accurately) than I do my SW 65 which I've owned for more than 30 years. Earlier this year I bought a Sig P290 with the Sig Laser and it's also useful - if I remember to reach out with my trigger finger or use my weak hand thumb to turn it on. Executiuon is everything. I doubt that it would be useful in a stressfull situation and am probably just going to take it off. The upside is the 290 carries more rounds and is much easier/faster to reload so I guess it boils down to shooting 5 accurate shots vs maybe 15 not so accurate.
I may step up my training by participating in IPDA in the near future. Not sure what else I can do in my area given my time and budget.
Thanks and the contributors to this forum have also been a great aid for me, and if I ever have to use a firearm to protect my or anyone elses' life my success will be largely due to the guidance received here.
I have CT on my M&P 340 ... when I practice dry fire. At the range I found that I spent my time trying to locate the little red dot rather than staying focused on the target. Various lighting conditions are not my idea of the best condition for CT. I do like them for dry fire practice.
WeedWacker
New member
Our local action league did a scenario shoot.
You were supposedly attending the new My Little Pony movie with your kids.
First string: In the middle of a movie a dark figure bursts in through the side door and starts shooting. You start sitting a few rows in and must take into account three no-shoot targets in the row in front of you. Place three rounds center of mass in the darkened target (to simulate dark clothing) while avoiding the no-shoot target partially obscuring the bottom left third of the target and the no shoot behind and right of the bad guy. The three shots seem to not have any effect so you take a safety shot to stop the bad guy for good. You make your way to the left emergency exit and find another shooter, also dressed in black, waiting for people to rush out of the theater. Fire two rounds aiming for the head assuming this shooter is also wearing body armor.
Second string: Start with your hands above your head in a surrender position and with your back to two targets that are partially obscured by no-shoot targets. Turn and fire two shots center of mass in both targets followed by two rounds to the head in both targets. Then head to the alley to the right while performing a mandatory magazine change. Continue moving and fire six rounds center of mass at the target 15 yards down range. Then move to the barricade and fire two shots center of mass while leaning right followed by two shots to the head while leaning left.
All this was done in a darkened range with flashlights and strobes in the background. If you had a tactical light it either was held in the hand or previously attached to the firearm and must be in a holster that accepts such accessories. The light could not be attached after drawing the handgun. Lasers were also permitted if attached.
The guy with the best score and fastest time was a retired LEO and used a LC9 with a laser sight (not sure if it was Lasermax or CT). Having the laser in the dark definitely was an advantage since making out the exact shape of the darkened silhouettes was difficult without a light.
You were supposedly attending the new My Little Pony movie with your kids.
First string: In the middle of a movie a dark figure bursts in through the side door and starts shooting. You start sitting a few rows in and must take into account three no-shoot targets in the row in front of you. Place three rounds center of mass in the darkened target (to simulate dark clothing) while avoiding the no-shoot target partially obscuring the bottom left third of the target and the no shoot behind and right of the bad guy. The three shots seem to not have any effect so you take a safety shot to stop the bad guy for good. You make your way to the left emergency exit and find another shooter, also dressed in black, waiting for people to rush out of the theater. Fire two rounds aiming for the head assuming this shooter is also wearing body armor.
Second string: Start with your hands above your head in a surrender position and with your back to two targets that are partially obscured by no-shoot targets. Turn and fire two shots center of mass in both targets followed by two rounds to the head in both targets. Then head to the alley to the right while performing a mandatory magazine change. Continue moving and fire six rounds center of mass at the target 15 yards down range. Then move to the barricade and fire two shots center of mass while leaning right followed by two shots to the head while leaning left.
All this was done in a darkened range with flashlights and strobes in the background. If you had a tactical light it either was held in the hand or previously attached to the firearm and must be in a holster that accepts such accessories. The light could not be attached after drawing the handgun. Lasers were also permitted if attached.
The guy with the best score and fastest time was a retired LEO and used a LC9 with a laser sight (not sure if it was Lasermax or CT). Having the laser in the dark definitely was an advantage since making out the exact shape of the darkened silhouettes was difficult without a light.
Sometimes the stuff we create in our own heads, while logical, isn't born out by facts. The proper way to carry a CT pistol in a holster, pocket holster, or secured in a vest compartment designed for a gun, is with the switch in the ON position. Same for a home SD gun. The switch in the ON position uses no battery life until the laster is activated when you grip the gun. Also have a set on a SIG P220 that I carry in an IWB. No issues accidentally activating the laser before I grip the pistol. Switch ON.
My spare is an S&W 640 with CT laser grip carried in a pocket holster or vest/coat pocket. Carried it very regularly for a number of years now. Only concern I've had is activating the laser sooner than I want by gripping the pistol too hard. A little practice handles that issue. cool:
I like the laser because the sights on a J-frame aren't the best in dim light. The laser works real well in a stairwell, pkg garage, or most places in doors during daylight hours. My P220 doesn't have night sights. It's an older model with a different front dovetail, and I haven't been able to find a sight for it. The white dot front, and the CT grips make it very versatile.
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Anytime laser grips come up, I can't understand the folks who start pounding on the table trying to convince everyone they should not be used, they are horrible, they will ruin your gun handling skills.
Most everyone I know who is running their CCW with them is doing so simply to give themselves even more of a chance of survival in a life/death situation.
Yes, iron sights are wonderful and everyone should train, train and train with them.
But...when the real deal happens, God forbid, I'm not going to be worried about anything other than stopping the threat.
Whatever I can use to improve my odds sounds good to me.
Most everyone I know who is running their CCW with them is doing so simply to give themselves even more of a chance of survival in a life/death situation.
Yes, iron sights are wonderful and everyone should train, train and train with them.
But...when the real deal happens, God forbid, I'm not going to be worried about anything other than stopping the threat.
Whatever I can use to improve my odds sounds good to me.
WildBill45
New member
If you're not in the military or on a swat team, both usually have backup, lasers are fun, great for shooting club competition, but to save your life in the real world under real stress, leave them at home!
Defending yourself, or hunting dangerous game is a skill set thing, and with the most simple, reliable system that is PROVEN ... PERIOD.
Defending yourself, or hunting dangerous game is a skill set thing, and with the most simple, reliable system that is PROVEN ... PERIOD.
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CT lasergrips; laser-aimers, shooting...
I owned a Taurus snub .357magnum Protector with a CT Lasergrip in 2004.
It worked well but you need to understand the limits & practical uses of laser aiming units.
Even Crimson Trace & the company instructors-cadre advise using the lasers to aid in marksmanship not replace it.
Green laser systems are better than the older red models but do not last as long.
Be aware of the training standards with laser-aimers or white lights & be ready to quickly adapt to NOT having them in a critical incident.
Clyde
I owned a Taurus snub .357magnum Protector with a CT Lasergrip in 2004.
It worked well but you need to understand the limits & practical uses of laser aiming units.
Even Crimson Trace & the company instructors-cadre advise using the lasers to aid in marksmanship not replace it.
Green laser systems are better than the older red models but do not last as long.
Be aware of the training standards with laser-aimers or white lights & be ready to quickly adapt to NOT having them in a critical incident.
Clyde
You believe that when the real deal happens that wasting time looking for a laser dot that isn't on the target, then randomly waving your firearm around trying to get a laser dot to appear on the target somehow improves your odds?
Have you ever done any Simunitions training against tagets actually moving and "attacking" you (heck, even paintball or those plastic BB's) to compare your performance with a laser against iron sights?
WildBill45
New member
No, I do not "see." I read what you wrote, but beg to differ...
But thank you for asking.
Personally, I am notably faster more accurate with the laser. I can aim a gun accurately with a laser without taking a full shooting stance.... shooting from the hip (as is necessary in many self defense situations). I can't do that with iron sights. Of course there is point shooting, but A laser is a heck of a lot more accurate than point shooting.
45: You probably have a lot of experience with iron sights... sounds like you are a lot better with them than me. I do practice with them a lot more than I do lasers, but I'm far better with the laser. We're all different. However, there is a flaw in your reasoning above. If someone points the gun so poorly that they can't get their laser dot near the target when taking a stance without waving it around, then their front sight probably won't be near the target either, and they will have to wave the gun around in order to find it. I can always find the laser dot and put it on target quicker than I can line my irons up for a six o'clock hold. Seems like the dude who won the day at the league with the LC9 didn't have to wave the gun around much either.
45: You probably have a lot of experience with iron sights... sounds like you are a lot better with them than me. I do practice with them a lot more than I do lasers, but I'm far better with the laser. We're all different. However, there is a flaw in your reasoning above. If someone points the gun so poorly that they can't get their laser dot near the target when taking a stance without waving it around, then their front sight probably won't be near the target either, and they will have to wave the gun around in order to find it. I can always find the laser dot and put it on target quicker than I can line my irons up for a six o'clock hold. Seems like the dude who won the day at the league with the LC9 didn't have to wave the gun around much either.