Crimp Question

[44 AMP]

OK, re-read the thread, and would add a few comments to the fine advice already given.

Generally speaking, .38SPl/.357 Mag dies have a roll crimp in the seater die.

There are two reasons to crimp .38/.357 ammo, the "bullet puller" effect (crimp jump) that can happen in revolvers, and the second reason that doesn't apply to you, (yet ) to enhance combustion of slow powders in magnum loads.

.38/.357 is right on the edge where crimp jump is a concern. It very much depends on the level of recoil, and the size (weight) of the gun.
(assuming, of course, proper case neck tension on the bullet)
I can shoot mild uncrimped .38 loads from a S&W N frame without the bullets moving. Shooing the same ammo from a light .38 snub nose, and the bullet move a little. So I always put at least some crimp on all of them.

Uncle Nick's method of finding how much crimp you need

Load two rounds with one empty chamber between them ...

is a good start. When you can fire all the chambers (but one) and the bullet doesn't move in the unfired round, you are done.

The "quick and dirty" method I use for finding my starting point when setting crimp is a factory round.

Seat one (or more) of the bullets you are going to use to the correct depth.
then back the seating stem out of the way.

I screw the die in until the crimp shoulder firmly contacts the factory round (hand tight only, don't reef on it), screw the locking ring down to contact, as a reference, don't lock the die in the press at this point.

back the die off a little.

Using the earlier seated bullet, adjust (in SMALL changes) until you get the amount of crimp you want, (which may be before the lock ring bottoms out, or not, your case might be a little different length than the factory round, that's why I said, for reference), then when the amount of crimp is right, lock the die in, and run the seating stem down to the bullet, and you should be set to seat and crimp in one step.

Note that this only works when your cases are uniform in length. A case a few thousandths shorter than the one you set the die with won't get enough crimp, one a few thousandths longer could be buckled and might not chamber.

With light loads, and a LIGHT touch of crimp, your plated bullets should work ok, resisting crimp jump, even in a light snub nose.

Be a good Glockfanboy when shooting a Glock, but revolvers were designed for lead, and they like it! so don't overlook them in the future.

Good luck, and let us know how things work out.

 

[robhic]

The "quick and dirty" method I use for finding my starting point when setting crimp is a factory round.

Seat one (or more) of the bullets you are going to use to the correct depth.
then back the seating stem out of the way.

I screw the die in until the crimp shoulder firmly contacts the factory round (hand tight only, don't reef on it), screw the locking ring down to contact, as a reference, don't lock the die in the press at this point.

back the die off a little.

Yeah, I've used factory ammo previously and it seems to be a good way to start. I also plan on making and keeping dummy rounds of the right size(s) to use for same. First 38/357 will be lo-power until (and after the 'Uncle Nick Test) I use the plated bullets and buy more w/cannelure. I might actually figure this out! And thanks for the time and info. I'll be going slooooow to start on everything because I like having all 10 fingers intact....

 

[44 AMP]

Small steps, learn to walk before you run, etc.

We'll help any way we can, gladly.

Tip: when convenient, get a kinetic bullet puller (hammer type). I use the LYman orange one, when needed.

You will, at some point want it. When you screw up a round, and we ALL have done it, or will do it , the puller will let you recover at least some of the components.

I remember when I was just starting out, every case was important, and primers were precious like gold, bullets nearly so. Almost cried when I mangled a round because I didn't have things as right as I thought. (ok was a teenager mowing lawns for money, and I was ALSO CHEAP, but still, it hurt when I damaged components due to MY error.)

I learned a lot of what NOT to do, by trial and error. No internet in those days, just books and gun magazines. No organized group I could just talk to (24/7) with collective hundreds of years of experience...

You kids today are SOOO spoiled!

Good Luck, and when you figure out what to ask next, we'll be here to answer.

Some answers might even be right!

 

[robhic]

Tip: when convenient, get a kinetic bullet puller (hammer type). I use the LYman orange one, when needed.

You will, at some point want it. When you screw up a round, and we ALL have done it, or will do it , the puller will let you recover at least some of the components. You kids today are SOOO spoiled!

Got and used the bullet puller already. Yes, it was a good investment! Also got a case-trimmer for just in case. Would it shock you that I turned 63 in October? YOU kids jump to conclusions so quickly. Why, in my day.....

 

[44 AMP]

why, in my day, you were a kid starting out reloading, no matter how many winters you had seen. Not about chronological age, its about round count, and calibers loaded...

and we were loading for dinosaur, back then, hunted them up hill, both ways!


.22 Hornet, .221 Fireball, .222 Rem, .223 Rem, .22-250, .243 Win, 6mm Rem, .25-06, 6.5x55mm Swede, .30-30 Win, .30-40 Krag, 7.62x54R, .308 Win, .30-06, .300 Win Mag, .303 British, 7.7mm Jap, 8mm Mauser, .350 Rem Mag, .375 H&H, .45-70, and .458 Win Mag, .32acp, 9MM Luger, .38 Super, .38Spl, .357 Mag, .357AMP, .44Spl, .44Mag, .44AMP, .45acp, .45 Colt, & .45 Win Mag.

Semi autos, bolt guns, lever guns, and single shots. Single stage presses, turret press, progressive press, I've learned a few things about all these.

Happy to share, with kids, grown ups and old fogeys. I fit at least ONE of those, I think, ..

 

[AzShooter]

Rainier are great bullets. The plating is easily cut if you crimp too much.

I shoot thousands of coated and plated bullets. The trick is after belling the case enough to let the bullet seat just take off the bell when sizing. If you use a taper crimp die run it down till you can just feel it crimping and then add 1/2 turn and you are done.

I too shoot my .38s sized .358 in my 9mm guns. I gain about 25 fps from the over sized bullets but there is no problem with using them. Jacketed material and lead are softer than your barrel and the bullets will just swage down to the size you need. I also get better accuracy from using the oversized bullets.

 

[robhic]

I shoot thousands of coated and plated bullets. The trick is after belling the case enough to let the bullet seat just take off the bell when sizing. If you use a taper crimp die run it down till you can just feel it crimping and then add 1/2 turn and you are done.

Good to know. I have about 200 Ranier plated 125gr RN bullets so I'm definitely wanting to use them. Both in 38 and 357 but I'm gonna look at the lead bullets for future use. Most say "uncoated". Can I just shake 'em around in a container with something like 'ALOX' (or whatever)? Absolutely NO experience with lead. Never used unplated or non-jacketed to this point.

I too shoot my .38s sized .358 in my 9mm guns. I gain about 25 fps from the over sized bullets but there is no problem with using them. Jacketed material and lead are softer than your barrel and the bullets will just swage down to the size you need. I also get better accuracy from using the oversized bullets.

I still find that interesting when everything I've read indicated that .355 is "average" and .356 is OK but .355 is recommended more. I might just try after I get the hang of this a little better.

Thanks for the info!

 

[robhic]

why, in my day, you were a kid starting out reloading, no matter how many winters you had seen. Not about chronological age, its about round count, and calibers loaded...

Oh well, that makes me practically a newborn by that standard! I'll need to crawl THEN walk before running. But in this ONE THREAD ALONE I'VE LEARNED QUITE A BIT. This is gonna be good. I wanna gits me some lead bullets for the non-Glocks to try. A lot of interesting types in plain lead....

 

[44 AMP]

There's a whole new world opening for you, robhic. There are lots of uses for "plain lead" bullets, but Alloy lead is where its at for revolvers (and they can do quite well in semis, too!)

First off is to learn the different terms, what they apply to and how they are used. I'll stay away from details about casting, for now, but some of the basics are good to know.

"plain lead" to a cast bullet shooter means "pure lead" or a very soft alloy.

Plain lead has its uses, but is not suitable for higher velocities, and may give feeding issues in some semi autos.

Alloys of lead, tin, and antimony are the most common, proportions (ratio) vary. Tin and antimony make the bullet harder than pure lead, and also aid in the casting process (the molten metal properly filling out the mold).

COMMERCIAL lead bullets come in two basic types, cast, and swaged. Cast bullets can be hard, soft, or somewhere in the middle. Swaged bullets are usually soft(er).

(am gonna skip plated bullets for now..)

Unless you specifically order some without, commercial cast bullets will be lubed. It could be with the traditional home caster's lube in grease grooves, or it could be a spray on / baked on. etc coating. Further lube is not needed.

There are a number of different bullet shapes (nose profiles) and designs from the late 1800s are still widely used, as well a more modern ones.

you will hear the term "Keith style" or something like that. This refers to bullets Elmer Keith designed, or ones that use the same features he did.

Keith designed his own Semi Wadcutter bullets (and many other things), that differed from the standard ones by having a larger flat point (meplat) and using a single large grease groove instead of several narrower ones.

It is an outstanding design, and works very well for a number of things. Many commercial casters offer "Keith style" slugs. The wide flat nose aids energy transmission in live targets, and the full caliber shoulder of the bullet cuts clean holes in paper targets, too.

I recommend Oregon Trail Laser Cast bullets, I've been using them for a number of years, and they are good. There are others that are good also, but there are also those makers who's products aren't as good, for some things.

The key factors about lead bullets are alloy content suitable for the desired velocity range, AND bullet fit to the bore of your gun.

Soft alloys (& pure lead) low velocity, harder for midrange, hardest for high velocity, to minimize leading.

Bullet fit to your bore is even more important to control leading, and for accuracy. Even the hardest cast slugs are "softer" than jacketed bullets. The rifling needs to dig in deeper to work best. This is why cast bullets are "oversize" compared to jacketed bullets.

Generally speaking (and there are exceptions) a lead bullet should be about 0.002" LARGER than the groove diameter of your barrel. This allows the rifling to get a good grip, and a good seal of the bullet in the barrel.

Undersize slugs don't seal as well, so gas blowby melts some lead, leaving it in your barrel. Undersize slugs "skid" in the rifling, leaving lead in your barrel, and often not being as accurate.

Commercial casters know this and generally size their slugs appropriately for an acceptable fit in most guns. Exceptions happen, guns differ, etc. Just something you have to look out for.

Cast slugs sold by all the major bullet makers and casters are ready to use right out of the box, and generally give somewhere between adequate and excellent performance. Slugs sold at a gunshow (or some shops), cast by Bubba J down the block might not be as good.

There is a scale of hardness (Brinell) which is good to know, but not essential to learn in detail, until you get into the casting end of things. Essentially in the scale, higher numbers mean harder bullets.

I use the "rule of thumb(nail)" to determine the relative hardness of lead bullets. If you can make a deep gouge in the lead with your thumbnail its "soft" if you can only make a bright spot, its "hard". Not precise, but works for me..

These are a few things to be aware of, when you're ready for more, we'll be here to explain, and confuse with information overload.

Good Luck!

 

[robhic]

AMP44, my man! Again I thank you for the tips and info. I did a bit of reading and ordered some hardcast lead flat nose bullets.

There's a whole new world opening for you, robhic. There are lots of uses for "plain lead" bullets, but Alloy lead is where its at for revolvers (and they can do quite well in semis, too!)

First off is to learn the different terms, what they apply to and how they are used. I'll stay away from details about casting, for now, but some of the basics are good to know.

"plain lead" to a cast bullet shooter means "pure lead" or a very soft alloy.

See? It's rubbin' off on me already. I checked and the specs say they are pre-lubed (good for me) and mostly small game/general purpose. I'm gonna use these to hone my skills with the roll-crimping. I think this will be a good thing and have some small pistol magnum primers coming Friday so .357 is on the horizon!

I use the "rule of thumb(nail)" to determine the relative hardness of lead bullets. If you can make a deep gouge in the lead with your thumbnail its "soft" if you can only make a bright spot, its "hard". Not precise, but works for me..

I imagine that's a good, easy test to use. I think between my plated and hardcast bullets I should be GTG after making a bunch of .38/357.