Crime and Guns

Where I used to work I was involved in the Safety program and was involved in investigating Injury incidents. As such you quickly find that when asked the question "How could this incident have been prevented?" that you can never just address the immediate cause of the injury to get to prevention of future injuries. You have to go back and look at activities that have occurred sometimes quite long ago to find a preventative action.

A simple point to make is that most people learn to control their tempers when they find that it is nonproductive. Childs tempertantrum in store comes to mind. Give in or stop it? Which decision tends to lead to road rage?

As others have noted "Armed societies tend to be polite societies" because of the feedback that temper tantrum brings. You do not know if your temper tantrum will be rewarded or punished and that uncertainity brings politeness.

As to fist fight, I am reminded of smallish statured cousin who got in a bar fight with a larger statured imbiber. Cousin got in lucky punch and larger person went down. Unfortunately for cousin larger person hit head on barstool and expired. Cousin spent time in prison just from a simple fistfight. Color me simple but I do not relish idea of fistfight to settle anything. If you get off on fighting there a any number of groups which have fighting as sport.
 
If things like this happen every day in cities all over the country, what is the solution to curb things like this?
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They don't, which is why this incident is newsworthy.

Whatever happened to the days when you would each get out and beat the piss out of each other and then move on?
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It has never been that way. Not with strangers.
My father grew up through prohibition and the depression. Fights stopped being "fair" about the time you turned 15 or so because a lot of kids started carrying knives or brass knuckles.

As an adult, if a stranger picked a fight, it was either settled in the first few blows or became a very serious fight in which someone would get badly hurt.

What has changed in society that pulling a gun and shooting someone is easier to do and seemingly all to common these days?
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As noted elsewhere, legal CCW is very difficult in Maryland. My opinion is that if the killer is found, we will find out he is already a criminal of some sort with a record. The probability that the gun was stolen is high too.

The reasoning is simple. If you're an average Joe illegally carrying a gun in the car for "protection", the you will have worried somewhat about legal problems if found carrying the gun. These legal issues and the financial complications preclude using the gun except in dire emergencies. Being ticked off by a bad driver doesn't qualify.

A criminal, on the other hand, ignores the laws and will carry when he pleases. He plans to run from police, avoid capture so he can continue doing whatever the heck he wants to do. Likely he has a criminal record of some kind. It is also likely he fools with recreational pharmacuticals and/or hangs out with other criminal elements.

If he's caught, he doesn't care if the gun is stolen or that carrying it was illegal. His lawyer will try to plea bargain those charges away so he can get a reduced sentence using a "guilty" plea, knowing he'll serve only 1 of every 5 years before being released.

So called "normal" people seldom "snap" and go on homicide binges, much less multiple-murder sprees. It is typically those people who either have a psychological problem or those with criminal records who kill.
 
Fights stopped being "fair" about the time you turned 15 or so because a lot of kids started carrying knives or brass knuckles.
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That makes sense.

Let me ask this then as a general follow-up to all of the posts since my last.

If CCW were allowed in all 50 states with no restrictions, meaning the non-criminal can get them just as easily as the criminal, so it is almost a "level" playing field, I would agree and put out there that you would see a reduction in crimes, of all sorts, because of a fear on the side of the criminal that "if" i did something to Joe Blow I may get shot and killed because carrying a legal weapon is very common these days.

So, the reason that a society is being more "polite" or respectable towards others is not because that person deserves it or has earned it, but merely because they do not want to get into an altercation where they could possibly be forced to use that weapon or get shot and killed themselves.

How and why did society go from I respect you on the street not because you may be carrying, but because you are a person, a human being to now I am going to respect you on the street and keep my nose free and clear from all things so that I do not get into an altercation.

Kind of goes along with that typical stare down that happens when people walk on the streets, you never get the "Hey how's it going?" anymore, its just who can stare who down and make the other look away.
 
How and why did society go from I respect you on the street not because you may be carrying, but because you are a person, a human being to now I am going to respect you on the street and keep my nose free and clear from all things so that I do not get into an altercation.

Kind of goes along with that typical stare down that happens when people walk on the streets, you never get the "Hey how's it going?" anymore, its just who can stare who down and make the other look away.
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First off, I don't think society as a whole has ever really respected someone based on the simple fact that they are human beings. I think in general things are a power struggle. It is my belief that this is the catalyst that makes evolution work. Just look at all the tragedies that have taken place in the name of religion. Religion has easily been the single biggest contributor/justification for genocide in all of history. It allows a human being to remove the blame off of their own shoulders and place it somewhere else. A sort of mental anesthetic if you will. Now I'm not trying to offend anybody, this is merely how I see it. If you see things differently, I am more the willing to listen to your point of view also.

Second of all, I have to add, in South Carolina, people do say hello and how are you to each other. Hell, we wave at one another when we are passing each other on the roads. Doesn't matter that we are strangers, it's just Southern Hospitality. However, here in California, I have noticed that people look at me like I am a rapist if I say hey how are you doing. Not all of them of course, but it is rather disconcerting. Do I think it is merely because of the concentration of population? No. I was stationed in Hawai'i for almost four years, and there were many more people packed into a smaller area there than here, and they were invariably much friendlier than individuals I have had the unfortunate opportunity of running into out here in CA. I think it is a general prevailing attitude fueled by HollyWood, Gang Culture, and Orange County that is to blame. I don't have any suggestions on how to fix it other than just getting out and being yourself and enjoying life vice being glued to the tube or the latest fashion from the mall, or pushing dope.
 
Do I think it is merely because of the concentration of population? No.
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Maybe. Crime is higher in more densly populated areas, coupled with the MSM fear mongering, and the occassional attack of someone in distress where someone stops to *help* and robs/sexually assaults them instead.

I used to live here in the Springs back in the 70's and people would greet each other while walking past etc. Now if you look at them or say hi, they look at you as if you owe them money, or are a rapist etc. like you say. I do notice though that the further I get from the city, wether east into the plains or west into the mountains, people still wave as they drive by and actually smile.
 
For BoringAccountant

Sorry, I was away and didn't have time to respond to your post. First, about cops. Not all cops are ethical and/or competent. Allowing adults to engage in a fight "to let them work it out" by police officers is wrong and those I saw do it I would report them to their department. The only excuse for letting it go on would be to protect the officers safety until backup arrived. Otherwise they should be tazer and pepper spray bait.
Here is the bigger issue and why I use terms like STUPID and DUMB. You see, I think that adults who engage in fistfights are childish. As in thats the stuff kids do because they are immature. An adult who engages in a fistfight with a stranger (who could be anything from a boring accountant to a serial killer) is both childish AND stupid. You see as a gun owner and CCW holder we need to be responsible adults and talking about fighting as adults needs to be soundly comdemned. I don't like some of these ninjas on here and they give grist to the anti-gunners for their silly mills. Now to your next question. Where did it go wrong? Not sure but I have always felt since my younger years that is was a dumb thing to get in fights with strangers (I am in my 50's) Blame it on the '60s or the breakdown in the family or whatever you want but as one poster here said. You can have a gun or a temper but not both. I get flipped off all the time by other drivers and I just smile and drive away. If they do more I would call 911 and give their license tag. To pull over and fight or try and escalate the situation is asking for trouble. I'll protect myself if need be but only as a last resort. Hope the suffices. Bottomline, fair fights or not DON'T FIGHT! As to your scenario about the drunk. WALK AWAY and pay no attention to the idiot! If he attacks you (not pushes or spits etc) really attacks you then use the appropriate force to protect yourself. Your women's honor? That's nineteenth century stuff and not worthy of serious consideration. Hell sue him for slander :) C'mon we are grown-ups and we don't fight for "honor"
 
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Tenn Gentleman,

I can disagree with some of what you say, but then I came from a distinctly Irish background.

You see, I think that adults who engage in fistfights are childish. As in thats the stuff kids do because they are immature. An adult who engages in a fistfight with a stranger (who could be anything from a boring accountant to a serial killer) is both childish AND stupid.
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The second part - about strangers - I agree with. I visited Ireland, home of my ancestors, in the early 70's. As a young man it was a learning experience. In the 9 days I was there with my Dad we met some very nice people. In two different small town pubs, however, we watched arguments turn into fights. In the first one, a young fellow (late 20's) made a disparaging remark about another man's mother. A grave social error in almost any culture. The other man (about 40) clobbered the younger one good, right in the bar. When the younger broke a bottle, friends of both sides stopped him before he made a mistake. In the second, it was almost a scene out of a John Ford movie. A political argument, a challenge to "step outside", the parties move outdoors, shed their coats whilst the rest of the patrons gather 'round and place bets. About a dozen blows were struck, a lip split and a cheek brusied. The victor invited the defeated in for a drink and they tactfully changed subjects. (I lost £3.00 :o).

Where did it go wrong?

There's always been a "bad element" running loose in every civilization. Yet, even today as you go through smaller towns you find people more open and friendly than in bigger cities.

In a small town, if someone is beating Mrs. Grundy for her purse and Ned sees it and continues on by, how many of his neighbors might "gossip" about his lack of civic duty? In small towns fewer people are strangers too. People know each other a little better. You're more likely to say "howdy" to someone, unless you've been told they're the town bully or mean Mr. Crabtree. :p

Larger cities have a faster pace and more strangers than we can cope with easily. Today many people come home from a long work day and have their hands full with their own families. They don't sit on their porches and talk to neighbors walking past. TV keeps them indoors and the neighbors aren't walking past for the same reason. How many of your neighbors homes could you describe the interior? Or their kitchen or family room? How many could describe yours?

Dealing with strangers is stressful. As said, you don't know what kind of person they are. And cities are full of strangers. Unless there is something that gives you common ground or a sense of ease, most people feel uncomfortable talking to strangers. The MSM also fosters the fear of strangers by sensationalizing crime stories, often making it appear that some "normal" person just snapped one day and killed six people.

So as you pass strangers in the bigger cities, each one is a potential "mean Mr. Crabtree" or that town bully who just might beat on you if he's having a bad day. You don't speak to him to avoid giving him cause for any contact with you.

I think too many young people have never been taught the golden rule that you treat others as you would like to be treated.
 
When news like this happens, it teaches society a lesson. In other words, people should think twice before engaging in road rage, mutual combat, or berating strangers. Why? Because that other person might be crazy, not care about the legal consequences of their actions, and escalate the situation. Should you not learn from things like this, you surely assume the risk that you may encounter such a person. I, for one, do not engage in fights and so forth for this very reason. I don't think society has changed, as this existed in the "older" days too.

Also, I do not like the idea of cameras everywhere. How about more police instead? How about more foot patrols?

DV

WWUTD (What would Uncle Ted do?)
 
BillCA,
Irish 'eh. Me too. Remember however the Irish killed each other for a long time over religion and when you look at them you can't tell which is Protestant or Roman Catholic. I have been there too. Good people but not always the smartest. Anyway, Bill we don't live in Innisfree anymore and just because you saw two drunken idiots engage in a fistfight and then buy each other a drink doesn't make it smart or right. What if concealed carry was legal in Ireland back then? One of those guys might be dead becuase the other insulted his sainted mother. Lunacy! I think we need to promote grown-up behavior on this board. Fist fighting is kid stuff and I am not talking about some small town in Ireland but here in the US. If someone insults my mother (who is dead) I am sure she would not expect me to fight for her honor. In fact she taught me not to do that. I am not a pacifist but this talk of having a fair fistfight or whatever is the kind of stuff that the antigunners use to deny us CCW and other rights because they see us as mall ninjas just waiting to kill someone. This type of talk lends credence to their bilge. My point is simple, figure out another way to settle your differences rather than engaging in a fistfight. When I took my CCW class there were two immature young men who kept asking the Instructor: "Can I shoot him if he does this?" "If he does this I'm going to blow him away!". Finally, I couldn't take it anymore and I told these two fellas that taking a human life is not a game and if they thought it was then they shouldn't be carrying a firearm. I also told them that prison is not a fun place to be either. It scares me to think of those young sillies carrying concealed weapons ready to fight and maybe shoot someone over honor or tresppasing. Those on this board who carry should be the most polite and fight avoiding bunch around. OK, sorry for the sermon but this stuff gets me going.
 
TG,

We will just have to disagree on a lot of things then. I think BillCA's post is a great example of what I am talking about when it used to be that way. Sure the guys involved were irate and pissed right before and during the fight, but they just let it go afterwards. None of this I am going to do whatever it takes to win.

Your women's honor? That's nineteenth century stuff and not worthy of serious consideration. Hell sue him for slander C'mon we are grown-ups and we don't fight for "honor"
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Sorry, I just could not let it go. Call me nineteenth century then that's fine but there are some things worth fighting for...woman, name, and country - grandfather said that once. Yea we are grown-ups and because of that I think I would want to be treated as I would treat everyone else.

because they see us as mall ninjas just waiting to kill someone.
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So because someone else thinks something of me that is wrong I should change the way I act to please them?

Those on this board who carry should be the most polite and fight avoiding bunch around.
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Agreed 100%...and I am because I treat others as I would like to be treated, not because I am worried who may be one of those strangers that would kill for nothing.
 
I guess we will have to disagree. Fighting to protect a woman from harm is much much different than protecting her "honor" from some verbal insult. If you can't see the difference there then I don't know what to tell you. Fighting for your country is to protect it from harm not insult. Fighting for your "name"? What in the world does that mean? You'll fight and maybe seriously injure someone over your "name"? This is not only nineteenth century stuff but Hollywood as well. This is not the kind of code that our civilization lives under. And oh by the way, If you hit someone because they call you a name then you might well be arrested and sued and if you really live like that then I feel that would be a proper consequence of your actions. As to what others think. Well, see we live in a democracy where people vote on stuff, like gun control. So, when gun people get on this board and start talking about fighting over honor and their name then others who may be neutral about gun control look at this board they may form a negative opinion of gun owners. Should you care? Up to you but what others think may some day soon deprive all of us of our legal ability to carry because of those negative opinions they harbor and vote with. Your choice but you aren't doing us or yourself any good with this type of talk. I don't normally post here but felt I had to weigh in on this. My real hope is that you are just talking on a Bboard and so I'll be positive and believe that you really wouldn't get in a fight over honor or your name.;) Good luck!
PS You mentioned in a prior post that you were a young fellow. I used to think certain ways when I was young that I don't follow today. In many ways I was lucky.
 
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fortunately my woman is a semi-pro MMA competitor so if she feels some ass needs to be kicked for her honor she is more than capable and would rather do it herself :p
 
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