Crappy day and a run in with two LEO that made it better.
- Thread starter Kevinw
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It depends for me.
If I'm writing a CHL holder a ticket for a traffic infraction, then he's going to remove the weapon, leave it on the passenger seat and wait outside the vehicle until the stop is completed. If conditions render it uncomfortable or dangerous to remain outside the vehicle, then he's going to lock the weapon in the glove box until I leave.
If my contact with the CHL holder doesn't involve tickets, warnings or lectures, then if he passes an ID check, I'll just keep an eye on him for the duration of the stop.
I don't touch someone elses' weapon, nor do I remove it from his sight -- unless that person is going to jail, or if there is Reasonable Suspicion to believe the weapon may be stolen.
LawDog
[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 15, 2000).]
If I'm writing a CHL holder a ticket for a traffic infraction, then he's going to remove the weapon, leave it on the passenger seat and wait outside the vehicle until the stop is completed. If conditions render it uncomfortable or dangerous to remain outside the vehicle, then he's going to lock the weapon in the glove box until I leave.
If my contact with the CHL holder doesn't involve tickets, warnings or lectures, then if he passes an ID check, I'll just keep an eye on him for the duration of the stop.
I don't touch someone elses' weapon, nor do I remove it from his sight -- unless that person is going to jail, or if there is Reasonable Suspicion to believe the weapon may be stolen.
LawDog
[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 15, 2000).]
James E,
It has nothing to do with the LEO's mind being at ease. It has to do with the LEO going home at night. As an offduty LEO I was stopped by an LEO I did not know. I identified myself with my badge and ID and said I was armed. I was sternly told to keep my hands away from my gun and on the steering wheel. This LEO did not trust me even though I was also an LEO. I didn't have a problem with it because he did not know me. As an LEO I wouldn't have a problem with the "treatment" Kevin recieved. And yes James it is you (and others) that will continually say LEOs are wrong no matter what. When I see people who constantly critize a profession (whether it is LEOs, doctors, plumbers, etc), I see someone with a bone to pick.
Just because someone is legally armed that does not mean they are the tooth fairy. Things happen in people's lives and people "snap" all the time. That is how the world is. I would like to live to see my kids into adulthood and being complacent is not going to get me there.
I wouldn't have unloaded Kevins guns, I would have done something akin to what Lawdog said. But I am not going to critize these LEOs, they had to do what they felt was right at the time.
It has nothing to do with the LEO's mind being at ease. It has to do with the LEO going home at night. As an offduty LEO I was stopped by an LEO I did not know. I identified myself with my badge and ID and said I was armed. I was sternly told to keep my hands away from my gun and on the steering wheel. This LEO did not trust me even though I was also an LEO. I didn't have a problem with it because he did not know me. As an LEO I wouldn't have a problem with the "treatment" Kevin recieved. And yes James it is you (and others) that will continually say LEOs are wrong no matter what. When I see people who constantly critize a profession (whether it is LEOs, doctors, plumbers, etc), I see someone with a bone to pick.
Just because someone is legally armed that does not mean they are the tooth fairy. Things happen in people's lives and people "snap" all the time. That is how the world is. I would like to live to see my kids into adulthood and being complacent is not going to get me there.
I wouldn't have unloaded Kevins guns, I would have done something akin to what Lawdog said. But I am not going to critize these LEOs, they had to do what they felt was right at the time.
Trying to be very reasonable here & (again) smarmy mode is off, as was all others till this got posted:
12-34hom,
"Your going to see some whining about your thread, there are some here at TFL that would bitch about your encounter with these officers no matter what kind of encounter you've had with law enforcement... "
People were polite, people were just asking a question & fairly respectfully so ...
(smarmy = 1 ... )
Ain't delving into this one much more as I just get pi$$ed with the blanket "no matter what kind of encounter you've had with law enforcement" statements. Yeah, there "are some" - on both sides of this equation. We've got the "never can be pleased with any action LEOs take" & we've got elitist/holier than thou cops.
Suffice it to be said that I much prefer lawdog's style of "community policing."
(smarmy = off ... )
So I don't appear to be bashing the Finest in Blue, most every contact I've w/LEOs as a civy, they have all been quite polite to a fault & for the most part, professional. 'Course, I don't give 'em any reason not to be.
Was pulled over to the side of the road a week or two back/flashers on & checking some paperwork for a next customer. I see a crusier pulling out onto the road in back of me (rear-view mirror). I get "my papers" ready - the BHP's tucked between the two front bucket seats of my Tacoma = concealed from view at driver's side window.
Officer approaches, I attempt to hand over driver's license & CCW while stating that I have a CCW & a concealed pist... Officer interupts with "What?" I attempt to finish, he says "Is everything OK?" to which I replied "Of course, I was just ..." He cuts me off with "Just making sure you were alright. Flashers, etc." "Have a nice day & thanks" all around ends the "stop." (Of course, my plates were called in as he approached, etc.)
(smarmy = 2 ...)
Changing a flat or other such innocuous events does not require of a temporary suspension of the Constitution. Yes, exactly what I said.
(smarmy = 5 ... )
As far as "Officer & Kevin's safety?" Why is it so many LEO depts required cops to carry DAO? Perhaps because so many are so inproficient with their own sirearm that they shoot themselves with their own pistols?
& here's a real word-parse for ya. Absolutely ZERO LEOs have ever been shot by a law-abiding citizen whilst many, many law-abiding citizens have been mistakenly shot (& killed) by well-meaning LEOs.
What's the "for Kevin's safety" bit? So doesn't get shot for reaching for a comb?
12-34hom,
"Your going to see some whining about your thread, there are some here at TFL that would bitch about your encounter with these officers no matter what kind of encounter you've had with law enforcement... "
People were polite, people were just asking a question & fairly respectfully so ...
(smarmy = 1 ... )
Ain't delving into this one much more as I just get pi$$ed with the blanket "no matter what kind of encounter you've had with law enforcement" statements. Yeah, there "are some" - on both sides of this equation. We've got the "never can be pleased with any action LEOs take" & we've got elitist/holier than thou cops.
Suffice it to be said that I much prefer lawdog's style of "community policing."
(smarmy = off ... )
So I don't appear to be bashing the Finest in Blue, most every contact I've w/LEOs as a civy, they have all been quite polite to a fault & for the most part, professional. 'Course, I don't give 'em any reason not to be.
Was pulled over to the side of the road a week or two back/flashers on & checking some paperwork for a next customer. I see a crusier pulling out onto the road in back of me (rear-view mirror). I get "my papers" ready - the BHP's tucked between the two front bucket seats of my Tacoma = concealed from view at driver's side window.
Officer approaches, I attempt to hand over driver's license & CCW while stating that I have a CCW & a concealed pist... Officer interupts with "What?" I attempt to finish, he says "Is everything OK?" to which I replied "Of course, I was just ..." He cuts me off with "Just making sure you were alright. Flashers, etc." "Have a nice day & thanks" all around ends the "stop." (Of course, my plates were called in as he approached, etc.)
(smarmy = 2 ...)
Changing a flat or other such innocuous events does not require of a temporary suspension of the Constitution. Yes, exactly what I said.
(smarmy = 5 ... )
As far as "Officer & Kevin's safety?" Why is it so many LEO depts required cops to carry DAO? Perhaps because so many are so inproficient with their own sirearm that they shoot themselves with their own pistols?
& here's a real word-parse for ya. Absolutely ZERO LEOs have ever been shot by a law-abiding citizen whilst many, many law-abiding citizens have been mistakenly shot (& killed) by well-meaning LEOs.
What's the "for Kevin's safety" bit? So doesn't get shot for reaching for a comb?
Mrat, peace be with you sir. The only bone I've got to pick is with the injustice of government period. We, the civilians Joe Sixpack, are not happy campers with societys ills any more than the Leo profession. Those that live in large urban areas of high crime brought on by societys so called loosers and we are for the most part unarmed populist. We can't even get CCW permits. I no longer live in such an area, 20 years ago my family was constantly in jepordy and I had to carry a gun to work illegally just to preserve my life which had been thretened by some of societys loosers. The police could do nothing to guarantee ones safety. I didn't like doing this, but the county sheriff and the prevailing politics would not renew my gun permit that I had for a couple of years. My only recourse was to eventually move the family out of the crappy state we were living in. I am totally disabled with heart disease and not a good canidate to have to battle with BGs. unfortunate for me the state we now live in does not honor CCW permits and it is a Republican governed state. The only bone of got to pick is I am not able protect my family and myself by carring a consealed weapon. I damn well know how to use it proficiently too, but that don't mean squat.
No bones about it.
Jim
No bones about it.
Jim
Mrat, peace be with you sir. The only bone I've got to pick is with the injustice of government period. We, the civilians Joe Sixpack, are not happy campers with societys ills any more than the Leo profession. Those that live in large urban areas of high crime brought on by societys so called loosers and we are for the most part unarmed populist. We can't even get CCW permits. I no longer live in such an area, 20 years ago my family was constantly in jepordy and I had to carry a gun to work illegally just to preserve my life which had been thretened by some of societys loosers. The police could do nothing to guarantee ones safety. I didn't like doing this, but the county sheriff and the prevailing politics would not renew my gun permit that I had for a couple of years. My only recourse was to eventually move the family out of the crappy state we were living in. I am totally disabled with heart disease and not a good canidate to have to battle with BGs. unfortunate for me the state we now live in does not honor CCW permits and it is a Republican governed state. The only bone of got to pick is I am not able protect my family and myself by carring a consealed weapon. I damn well know how to use it proficiently too, but that don't mean squat.
No bones about it.
Jim
No bones about it.
Jim
George Dickel at Work
New member
In my life I have learned that if you want to be respected you have to show respect. Too many times I have witnessed the disrespectful attitude of LEOs towards the general public. Treating everyone like a potential criminal gains you no respect, only disdain or worse. After seeing some of the videos of LEOs beating the hell out of someone or reading about such incidents in the newspaper, we the general public, should have warm and fuzzy feelings when stopped by a LEO? What makes a LEO more trustworthy than a "civilian"? There sure have been a lot of crooked LEOs convicted of crimes over the years. It would not have been any trouble for those two officers to ask that the firearms be placed in the glove box while they were there. Explain why, instead of acting like he was a potential killer. The "Us against Them" attitude of LEOs is really becoming quite tired and offensive. The police and politicians have the ability, position and power to cause great harm, that is why they are scrutinized so closely. If you don't like it, do the rest of us a favor and find other employment. LEOs become quite defensive when their integrity is questioned but have no problem questioning the integrity of law abiding citizens. I was a Military Policeman for a number of years (yes, I realize it is not as stressful as that of a civilian LEO) and understand the stress and pressure you are under but sometimes you are your own worst enemy. I'm not trying to slam LEOs but you need to look at the situation from the other side too.
Labgrade, Is there a problem with those officers feeling safe?
Vehicle stops = Having control of the situation by the officers present... period.
I really don't understand why some take this situation personally? All the actions taken these officers were done in a professional & courtoues manner. [Kevin dealt with it with no problems]
Why do departments issue DAO pistols to there officers? There could be any number of reasons for that, every department has its own set of crieteria for the weapons they issue thier officers.
"No law abiding citizen has ever killed a police officer", with @ 13,000 officers killed in the line of duty, that statistic seems a little far fecthed.
There is a clear and present danger, when making vehicle stops, It's not an "Us vs. Them" thing whatsoever. It's making the police officers working enviourment safe for him or her and the person there dealing with. Every officer has thier own way of dealing with legally armed people. But as i stated before, assuming that because one has the legal right to carry a gun, he won't harm an officer or others; is a risk i'm not willing to take.... ever!
Vehicle stops = Having control of the situation by the officers present... period.
I really don't understand why some take this situation personally? All the actions taken these officers were done in a professional & courtoues manner. [Kevin dealt with it with no problems]
Why do departments issue DAO pistols to there officers? There could be any number of reasons for that, every department has its own set of crieteria for the weapons they issue thier officers.
"No law abiding citizen has ever killed a police officer", with @ 13,000 officers killed in the line of duty, that statistic seems a little far fecthed.
There is a clear and present danger, when making vehicle stops, It's not an "Us vs. Them" thing whatsoever. It's making the police officers working enviourment safe for him or her and the person there dealing with. Every officer has thier own way of dealing with legally armed people. But as i stated before, assuming that because one has the legal right to carry a gun, he won't harm an officer or others; is a risk i'm not willing to take.... ever!
labgrade,
In the past your posts have always been pretty reasonable and your arguments were good even if I didn't agree with them. But your statement that "ZERO LEOs have ever been shot by a law-abiding citizen" is absolutely absurd. The only way this is possible is if they become a non law-abiding citizen when they pull the trigger, therefore inregards to your statement they don't count. Where exactly did you come up with this statement?
"Why is it that so many leo depts require cops to carry DAO?"
This is an easy one, liability. Some chiefs are so paranoid about liability I am surprised they don't give their officers spitwads. Don't use what those idiots at the top do as a reflection on individual LEOs. I do agree that some cops are not proficient with their firearms, just like some engineers are not proficient with their calculators.
P.S. What is a smarmy?
James E,
Sorry you can't pack. I don't like it anymore than you do. As an LEO I know the scum that are out there and everybody should be able to protect themselves from them.
George Dickel,
"Too many times I have witnessed the disrespectful attitude of LEOs towards the general public."
Too many times I have witnessed the disrespectful attitude of the general public towards LEOs. The only thing your statement and mine shows is that we have jerks in society, regardless if they have a badge or not.
"...you need to look at the situation from the other side too."
That is good advice, no offense intended but I think you should take you own advice.
"The Us against Them attitude of LEOs is becoming quite offensive."
There is enough "Us against Them" to go around for everybody, including citizens. The bricks in the "blue wall" are put up by both sides, not just by LEOs.
"If you don't like it, do the rest of us a favor and find other employment."
Because I am an LEO does not mean I have to put up with constant critizism and like it. I believe I have as many rights as you do. Here you are saying it is your right to complain, but since I am an LEO I have to shutup or quit. Sounds like a double standard to me.
In the past your posts have always been pretty reasonable and your arguments were good even if I didn't agree with them. But your statement that "ZERO LEOs have ever been shot by a law-abiding citizen" is absolutely absurd. The only way this is possible is if they become a non law-abiding citizen when they pull the trigger, therefore inregards to your statement they don't count. Where exactly did you come up with this statement?
"Why is it that so many leo depts require cops to carry DAO?"
This is an easy one, liability. Some chiefs are so paranoid about liability I am surprised they don't give their officers spitwads. Don't use what those idiots at the top do as a reflection on individual LEOs. I do agree that some cops are not proficient with their firearms, just like some engineers are not proficient with their calculators.
P.S. What is a smarmy?
James E,
Sorry you can't pack. I don't like it anymore than you do. As an LEO I know the scum that are out there and everybody should be able to protect themselves from them.
George Dickel,
"Too many times I have witnessed the disrespectful attitude of LEOs towards the general public."
Too many times I have witnessed the disrespectful attitude of the general public towards LEOs. The only thing your statement and mine shows is that we have jerks in society, regardless if they have a badge or not.
"...you need to look at the situation from the other side too."
That is good advice, no offense intended but I think you should take you own advice.
"The Us against Them attitude of LEOs is becoming quite offensive."
There is enough "Us against Them" to go around for everybody, including citizens. The bricks in the "blue wall" are put up by both sides, not just by LEOs.
"If you don't like it, do the rest of us a favor and find other employment."
Because I am an LEO does not mean I have to put up with constant critizism and like it. I believe I have as many rights as you do. Here you are saying it is your right to complain, but since I am an LEO I have to shutup or quit. Sounds like a double standard to me.
mrat,
My parse of words re "no law-abiding, etc." was exactly what you figured. They were L-A until they pulled the trigger. A stupid thing to say on my part.
But, having no figures whatsoever, I'd just betcha that no LEO has ever been shot by someone who has gone through all the hoops
to legally obtain a CCW. These folks (me BTW) are about as law-abiding as they come & should be the absolute least of your worries.
"smarmy?" Beats me. Saw somebody else use it & took it as being kinda smart-a$$ed/sorta sarcastic. Looked like a good word.
BTW, thanks for the kind words re my posts. I don't expect that any of us will agree on everything & that's not the intent. It's more the actual thought-provoking discussion/s that we're here, I'd think. You're pretty good too.
Back to the topic (that's been bastardized from what Kevin started )...
I am zero threat to any LEO. Period. Yeah, I know, you guys won't know that because you don't know me from Adam at any contact. Oh well.
Still, I would take huge offense that any LEO would disarm me (for his [alleged] safety or mine, because I might do something untoward. You would take just as much offense (not to mention I'd be arrested toot-sweet) if I disarmed you because I thought that you might do something "funny."
That's a double standard - even though, yes, I know, you're the "symbol" for law & order, etc.
Very many of y'all LEO-types come across very well in my way of looking at it & many come across as, shall I say, "less than desirable" .... a bit "robust" & "smarmy."
I'm sure we are similar from your perspective.
If I gave reason, I'd expect to be disarmed. Changing a flat or even in a normal contact re traffic violation, doesn't in my mind, call for disarming a person.
I asked, in my first post, kinda rhetorically, "why?" is all. Some came back with reasonable answers, some came back with a "'cause you'll damned-well do as I say, Buster"-type of attitude.
I liked the first type & don't the second.
My parse of words re "no law-abiding, etc." was exactly what you figured. They were L-A until they pulled the trigger. A stupid thing to say on my part.
But, having no figures whatsoever, I'd just betcha that no LEO has ever been shot by someone who has gone through all the hoops
to legally obtain a CCW. These folks (me BTW) are about as law-abiding as they come & should be the absolute least of your worries.
"smarmy?" Beats me. Saw somebody else use it & took it as being kinda smart-a$$ed/sorta sarcastic. Looked like a good word.
BTW, thanks for the kind words re my posts. I don't expect that any of us will agree on everything & that's not the intent. It's more the actual thought-provoking discussion/s that we're here, I'd think. You're pretty good too.
Back to the topic (that's been bastardized from what Kevin started
)...I am zero threat to any LEO. Period. Yeah, I know, you guys won't know that because you don't know me from Adam at any contact. Oh well.
Still, I would take huge offense that any LEO would disarm me (for his [alleged] safety or mine, because I might do something untoward. You would take just as much offense (not to mention I'd be arrested toot-sweet) if I disarmed you because I thought that you might do something "funny."
That's a double standard - even though, yes, I know, you're the "symbol" for law & order, etc.
Very many of y'all LEO-types come across very well in my way of looking at it & many come across as, shall I say, "less than desirable" .... a bit "robust" & "smarmy."
I'm sure we are similar from your perspective.
If I gave reason, I'd expect to be disarmed. Changing a flat or even in a normal contact re traffic violation, doesn't in my mind, call for disarming a person.
I asked, in my first post, kinda rhetorically, "why?" is all. Some came back with reasonable answers, some came back with a "'cause you'll damned-well do as I say, Buster"-type of attitude.
I liked the first type & don't the second.
walangkatapat
New member
12-34hom, #2. Just because someone is licensed to carry firearms you can NEVER know what another persons mindset is on that particular day, moment etc..
Can't this be said for cops as well? May be civillians shouldn't be able to buy any firearms because someday we may NEVER know what kind of mindset they may get. Where have I heard this kind of garbage before?
I really don't understand why some take this situation personally? All the actions taken
these officers were done in a professional & courtoues manner.
Frankly I would take offense at it because I have gone through the legality at my own expense to carry concealed legally, but then we are treated like second class citizens. I guess this is what us civillians get for playing by the rules.
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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
Can't this be said for cops as well? May be civillians shouldn't be able to buy any firearms because someday we may NEVER know what kind of mindset they may get. Where have I heard this kind of garbage before?
I really don't understand why some take this situation personally? All the actions taken
these officers were done in a professional & courtoues manner.
Frankly I would take offense at it because I have gone through the legality at my own expense to carry concealed legally, but then we are treated like second class citizens. I guess this is what us civillians get for playing by the rules.
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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
One question and a short story ...
This is for the LEOs on the board... If you are in uniform and aproach me, not because I'm doing anything but just to "shoot the breeze", do you expect me to inform you that I'm armed? If you approached me off duty, out of uniform, and I didn't know you were police then I certainly would never bring up to a stranger I was armed, so why should I tell a uniformed officer. I can understand telling them if it were a traffic stop or another problem, but if they are just doing community outreach then I don't feel obligated to tell them anything.
Another great Indiana story ...
About 2 years ago my parent's neighbor came home to find his front door had been forced open. He went to my parents and called 911 then my brother and father went back over with him to watch the house until they arrived. (There's a lot of room between the houses there so they couldn't see the house from inside my parents' house.) My brother had his 45 carried open on his hip, my father had a shotgun. The sheriffs arrived, cleared the house, took the report and never once asked to see a CCW, unload the guns, check the serial numbers, or be anything but nice and professional.
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Refuse to be a "helpless" victim.
Knowing Your Rights WAGC in Indiana
This is for the LEOs on the board... If you are in uniform and aproach me, not because I'm doing anything but just to "shoot the breeze", do you expect me to inform you that I'm armed? If you approached me off duty, out of uniform, and I didn't know you were police then I certainly would never bring up to a stranger I was armed, so why should I tell a uniformed officer. I can understand telling them if it were a traffic stop or another problem, but if they are just doing community outreach then I don't feel obligated to tell them anything.
Another great Indiana story ...
About 2 years ago my parent's neighbor came home to find his front door had been forced open. He went to my parents and called 911 then my brother and father went back over with him to watch the house until they arrived. (There's a lot of room between the houses there so they couldn't see the house from inside my parents' house.) My brother had his 45 carried open on his hip, my father had a shotgun. The sheriffs arrived, cleared the house, took the report and never once asked to see a CCW, unload the guns, check the serial numbers, or be anything but nice and professional.
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Refuse to be a "helpless" victim.
Knowing Your Rights WAGC in Indiana
Walangkatapat: Yes, that includes police officers. [unless you don't consider police as people]
If you want to take my words as a personal affront towards you, that is entirely up to you. I'm applaud your decision to "play by the rules". Lots of others don't and play by thier own set. These are the folks i deal with on a regular basis, and as such must be careful on how i approach the "unknown" and deal with them.
I don't expect you to sympathize or care about my saftey while working, that's up to me, and this is the way i conduct business. I offer no apologies, i have never violated anyones personal or civil rights, and don't intend to in the future. But don't expect me to sacrafice my saftey, so that you and others with like thoughts can feel better about the police.
I fully suppoert 2nd amd rights and those licensed to legally carry firearms.
If you want to take my words as a personal affront towards you, that is entirely up to you. I'm applaud your decision to "play by the rules". Lots of others don't and play by thier own set. These are the folks i deal with on a regular basis, and as such must be careful on how i approach the "unknown" and deal with them.
I don't expect you to sympathize or care about my saftey while working, that's up to me, and this is the way i conduct business. I offer no apologies, i have never violated anyones personal or civil rights, and don't intend to in the future. But don't expect me to sacrafice my saftey, so that you and others with like thoughts can feel better about the police.
I fully suppoert 2nd amd rights and those licensed to legally carry firearms.
[Me] Hello Officer, here is my Driver's License, CCW permit, and yes i have IT on my right hand side, behind my hip.
[Officer] I'll need to disarm you... thank you for cooperating. Wait here, i'll be back in a few minutes.
Officer goes about his business to complete this encounter... does he really know he's now safe? Does he really know i'm no longer armed?
What's to say, i don't inform him about the Kel-Tec P-32 in my boot? He may or may not have 'patted me down' and wouldn't necessarily know about my little gem.
This is scenario #1. The officer, by disarming me, may now think that he is the only armed personnel; but he may be wrong. Infact, now IF he is indeed wrong, he'll be at an even further tactical disadvantage because he may well be over estimating his safety.
LEO's, now if this scenario doesn't make you quake in your boots, i don't know what will.
So what, USP45, why are you diving into this LEO-Flamefest?
I'm not. The god's honest trueth is, that when interacting with LEO's, i am polite, obedient and non-confrontational. I will even be, disarmed, if it comes to that.
To what end? Disarming me of my 'known' weapon will do very little to assure the officer of his safety. Nothing really will. (Asside from handcuffing me and putting me in the back of the cruiser for the duration of your visit.) I suspect that an Officer standing at my driver's side window is most at danger from another driver. So what is the solution, mandate all traffic to stop, closing the roadway, during the issuance of a traffic citation? Why not, it would assuradly be safer for the officer.
But Scenario #1 is not a realistic concern is it. Why? Because as others have pointed out, those of us who jump through whoops to obtain and remain in good standing for a CCW permit, ARE NO THREAT TO LAW-ENFORCEMENT. But the permit could be a fake. SO WHAT? Your badge could be a fake, does that mean that i should have you disarm, and remain in your cruiser, while i transfer the paperwork to and fro, all the while my hand resting on the handle of my shootin iron? Ofcourse not.
AND, if Scenario #1 isn't a realistic concern then an armed citizen isn't a realistic concern for LEO's either; THERE IS NO NEED TO DISARM A CIVILIAN DURING A NON-CRIMINAL ENCOUNTER.
Where is this going to end?
When you come to my house, to collect for the anual Cheif's of Police charity, are you going to ask that i prove to you that i'm not armed, and that all of my weapons are stored, unuseable? When i join you at Krispy Kreem Donuts, are you going to disarm me at the door? You'll be safer that way, wont you?
On Saturday (15 July) i was shooting at the CMP match at the club when a local LEO show's up in uniform, in car. He's pissed off because his new rifle club membership card (electronic gate) seemed to be malfunctioning. Should we have all stopped shooting and allowed him to secure our weapons before he went about his complaining to the RO about his card (of which the RO's could not possibly help him in any way.) Obviously that would have made him safer.
One last point. You know, LEO's, you must remember that not all of us live in 'shall issue' states. I have to literally beg and plead with my local chief to grant me a CCW permit. AND if he says no, i will have no recourse by law to appeal his decision. When you want some respect from the citizenry, keep in mind how you make us beg and plead.
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~USP
"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
[Officer] I'll need to disarm you... thank you for cooperating. Wait here, i'll be back in a few minutes.
Officer goes about his business to complete this encounter... does he really know he's now safe? Does he really know i'm no longer armed?
What's to say, i don't inform him about the Kel-Tec P-32 in my boot? He may or may not have 'patted me down' and wouldn't necessarily know about my little gem.
This is scenario #1. The officer, by disarming me, may now think that he is the only armed personnel; but he may be wrong. Infact, now IF he is indeed wrong, he'll be at an even further tactical disadvantage because he may well be over estimating his safety.
LEO's, now if this scenario doesn't make you quake in your boots, i don't know what will.
So what, USP45, why are you diving into this LEO-Flamefest?
I'm not. The god's honest trueth is, that when interacting with LEO's, i am polite, obedient and non-confrontational. I will even be, disarmed, if it comes to that.
To what end? Disarming me of my 'known' weapon will do very little to assure the officer of his safety. Nothing really will. (Asside from handcuffing me and putting me in the back of the cruiser for the duration of your visit.) I suspect that an Officer standing at my driver's side window is most at danger from another driver. So what is the solution, mandate all traffic to stop, closing the roadway, during the issuance of a traffic citation? Why not, it would assuradly be safer for the officer.
But Scenario #1 is not a realistic concern is it. Why? Because as others have pointed out, those of us who jump through whoops to obtain and remain in good standing for a CCW permit, ARE NO THREAT TO LAW-ENFORCEMENT. But the permit could be a fake. SO WHAT? Your badge could be a fake, does that mean that i should have you disarm, and remain in your cruiser, while i transfer the paperwork to and fro, all the while my hand resting on the handle of my shootin iron? Ofcourse not.
AND, if Scenario #1 isn't a realistic concern then an armed citizen isn't a realistic concern for LEO's either; THERE IS NO NEED TO DISARM A CIVILIAN DURING A NON-CRIMINAL ENCOUNTER.
Where is this going to end?
When you come to my house, to collect for the anual Cheif's of Police charity, are you going to ask that i prove to you that i'm not armed, and that all of my weapons are stored, unuseable? When i join you at Krispy Kreem Donuts, are you going to disarm me at the door? You'll be safer that way, wont you?
On Saturday (15 July) i was shooting at the CMP match at the club when a local LEO show's up in uniform, in car. He's pissed off because his new rifle club membership card (electronic gate) seemed to be malfunctioning. Should we have all stopped shooting and allowed him to secure our weapons before he went about his complaining to the RO about his card (of which the RO's could not possibly help him in any way.) Obviously that would have made him safer.
One last point. You know, LEO's, you must remember that not all of us live in 'shall issue' states. I have to literally beg and plead with my local chief to grant me a CCW permit. AND if he says no, i will have no recourse by law to appeal his decision. When you want some respect from the citizenry, keep in mind how you make us beg and plead.
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~USP
"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
walangkatapat
New member
12-34hom, Yes, I do believe police are people too, even though I've meant cops that seem to think they are above us civilians. Heck I even think that politicians, lawyers, and journalists are people.
But don't expect me to sacrafice my saftey, so that you and others with like thoughts can feel better about the police.
Safety? You sure picked a fine career choice for safety. But how is it by disarming a citizen that has a CHL is making you feel safer? Is the citizen ranting and raving, verbal or nonverbal threats, violent gestures, possible DUI, or is it simply because the CHL? May be if you disarm CHL holder just because he/she has a CHL may be you should unload, show clear, and put your firearm in the trunk of your car. After all I don't want my safety endangered because of poor gun handling skills from a poorly trained police officer. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
But don't expect me to sacrafice my saftey, so that you and others with like thoughts can feel better about the police.
Safety? You sure picked a fine career choice for safety. But how is it by disarming a citizen that has a CHL is making you feel safer? Is the citizen ranting and raving, verbal or nonverbal threats, violent gestures, possible DUI, or is it simply because the CHL? May be if you disarm CHL holder just because he/she has a CHL may be you should unload, show clear, and put your firearm in the trunk of your car. After all I don't want my safety endangered because of poor gun handling skills from a poorly trained police officer. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
USP45,
"When you want some respect from the citizenry, keep in mind how you make us beg and plead."
I will attempt to be polite in this response and not type what I was originally thinking.
So now I am responsible for what my idiotic politican chief thinks about RKBA? So now I don't deserve respect because of the moron that has the power to not alow you to carry a gun? I think, and hope, you are smarter than that.
USP, obviously the LEOs who come to this board believe in RKBA. I have regularly stated my support of RKBA (and anger about the lack of it) and so have many of the other LEOs who post here. So please, let us debate the subjects here (and sometimes disagree) but don't insult us with such an idiotic statement as the one above. I or the other LEOs you come in contact with have no more control of your RKBA than you do.
[This message has been edited by mrat (edited July 17, 2000).]
"When you want some respect from the citizenry, keep in mind how you make us beg and plead."
I will attempt to be polite in this response and not type what I was originally thinking.
So now I am responsible for what my idiotic politican chief thinks about RKBA? So now I don't deserve respect because of the moron that has the power to not alow you to carry a gun? I think, and hope, you are smarter than that.
USP, obviously the LEOs who come to this board believe in RKBA. I have regularly stated my support of RKBA (and anger about the lack of it) and so have many of the other LEOs who post here. So please, let us debate the subjects here (and sometimes disagree) but don't insult us with such an idiotic statement as the one above. I or the other LEOs you come in contact with have no more control of your RKBA than you do.
[This message has been edited by mrat (edited July 17, 2000).]
"non-criminal encounter" =
Changing a flat tire for one. Or asking for directions, sitting next to another in a restaurant, walking into the station to file a report, assisting an LEO if he/she is in dire need ... all of which are completely innocuous situations.
And, even though doing 50MPH in a 35 zone is "a crime" by definition, I, personally would take the attitude of said driver into huge account regarding how I'd "feel" about my safety (assuming I was LEO).
Polite, courteous folk dealing with polite, courteous folk need not fear each other.
& BTW, if a person disarms me for no good cause, then my rights have been violated, if only for that time.
Changing a flat tire for one. Or asking for directions, sitting next to another in a restaurant, walking into the station to file a report, assisting an LEO if he/she is in dire need ... all of which are completely innocuous situations.
And, even though doing 50MPH in a 35 zone is "a crime" by definition, I, personally would take the attitude of said driver into huge account regarding how I'd "feel" about my safety (assuming I was LEO).
Polite, courteous folk dealing with polite, courteous folk need not fear each other.
& BTW, if a person disarms me for no good cause, then my rights have been violated, if only for that time.
- Status