Crappy day and a run in with two LEO that made it better.

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Kevinw

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I was driving along on the interstate today when I figured out that something just wasn't right. Ended up I had a flat. Easy enough to fix right? WRONG. I grab the Fix-a-flat and air compressor and go at it. Well about 1/4 mile later it is flat again. Turns out that I have two huge places ripped out of the time. (Don’t ask my how I still haven't figured it out) Ok time to break out the spare. Hmm Wait I am on my way in town to have the spare replaced.
Ok on to my next plan. I reach for my ever present and trusty Cell phone. Uhh, Opps I left that at home today in my rush to leave. About this time I start on stream of curses that would make a Sailor Blush. Luckily I saw a police car driving by and I flagged them down. It is at this time that I also realize another important fact. I have three guns on me or in the car and two of them are loaded. So I start praying this guy is nice and doesn't try to raise **** hell about the guns.

Well Two off duty officers get out of the car. Apparently they had seen my gun since it printed while I was kneeling down next to the tire. One went to each side of me and I stood there with my hands out to my side. One took my Sig 226 from my Holster and checked me for other weapons. I told the other my permit was in my wallet. One officer unloads the gun and to my surprise he takes great care with it. He was very careful where he pointed it but he also handled it with the care that you would of someone else’s valuable possession. The other officer got a Cell phone for me to use while the first officer got back in the car with the gun. I am assuming he was running a check on me and the gun. After all this was done he came back. They told me that the first thing I should always say when I am approached by an officer is that I am armed and have a permit. I can understand this, as they would want to know I am sure.

Now here is where it gets good. The officer holding my Sig goes to put it in my glove box. He sees the Colt Box on the seat and asks me if it is unloaded. I tell him that it is and he checks to confirm. Then he tries to get into the glove box to put my Sig in there. ****** it is locked and a loaded Berretta is in there. I inform him and give him the keys while stepping away from the car a bit. He got the M9 and unloaded it. I made the comment to one of them that it is kind of funny. The one time I have had any kind of dealing with police like this and I have three Guns on me. Must look kind of bad from their perspective. (Yes I was trying to kiss ass) But he just looked at me and said, "Doesn't matter how many you have on you, it is your right".
Now I was extremely happy to hear that. Then it got better. The other officer commented that the Sig was just like the one they use and asked me a couple questions about the Beretta. (it is an M9 Commemorative) He said it was a nice pistol then he locked them both in the Glove box and gave me back the Keys. He put all the Ammo in a small cup and gave that back as well. We BSed for a few while waiting for the tow truck, and they asked me not to load the guns till they were gone. Overall I was very happy to run into two officers that not only reacted well but also were supportive of the RKBA and appeared to be an avid shooter. One even asked if I knew where he could get a Beretta like mine. Looking back the only thing I think I did wrong was not informing them early on that there were more weapons in the car. He asked if I had anymore weapons on me but he seemed to be referring to my person and not the car since we were not even near my car at the time. To be honest the whole thing made me forget about what a crappy day I was having before then.
 
Glad to read about your 'positive' experience.
It's refreshing and reassuring, considering some of the stories that get told around here on a regular basis...

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...defend the 2nd.
No fate but what we make...
 
Once it is confirmed that someone is licensed, why is it necessary to for a LEO to unload that person's weapon(s)?

I realize this may differ from one department to another. However it seems that once it is determined someone has a carry license, any suspicion of that person would be greatly reduced if not elininated altogether.

I inquire respectfully, without any smarmy undertones.

Regards
 
I am thinking along the lines of Bunkster: why are they messing with your guns and keys and gloveboxes at all? "One took my Sig 226 from my Holster..."
I don't see any reason that they should have done anything but verify the validity of your permit, and call a tow truck.
OK, I admit it, I may have done the same since the world is not ideal place.
What state are you in, Kevinw?

Peace
Dave
 
Sounds like nice & friendly LEOS but I gotta ask .... (& me too no smarmy)

Why the disarming of a licensed CCW guy?

Every instance/contact I've had with LEOS (these even at TRT demos & I'm required to inform on contact) while CCWing, they just shrug & we carry on the conversation.
 
Kevinw: Thanks for your story.. :)

Your going to see some whining about your thread, there are some here at TFL that would bitch about your encounter with these officers no matter what kind of encounter you've had with law enforcement... :(

Reason for actions of the two officers = Officer Saftey. Just because a persons licensed to carry a firearm, does this make them any less lethal when being approached? These officer had NO idea who Kevin was, and took actions to ensure thier saftey and Kevins.
 
I gotta admit,I'm one of those who views any encounter with a cop as "his show." Any cooperation I can give him to make him feel more comfortable with a situation, he gets. Unless, of course, it's a female officer, and then she gets whatever she wants.

Aside from officer safety, how's this for a farfetched but potentially bad situation: Officer fails to disarm citizen; officer reacts to violence/crime nearby by a third party; armed citizen does something stupid trying to help out; officer and department get sued by somebody's estate.

Just because they can assume we're reasonably competent and have a history of sanity is no reason to ask them to bet their life or their career on a stranger's ability to handle himself if/when TSHTF.

I think they done good.

Steve
 
I've only had one incident with LE, as far as carrying goes. Me and the wife went to a movie. I was standing at the drink counter when a guy bumps his elbow on my right hip as he is turning away from the counter. His eyes got as big as saucers. He asked me if I had a permit for my heater.Told him yes I did. He just asked me to step outside after he showed me his badge. Asked to see my permit, when he was satisfied, he went on his way. Luckily, he was County law, not city, I don't know what the deal is with the city law around here, they hate civilian carry. Got into a little spat with 2 city cops about three yr ago. Went into a local gun shop, 2 LE were there oogling the wares, when they decided to unholster their pieces. They sighted in on each person in the store, when it was my turn, I politely asked them to point their toys elswhere, and made the stupid remark of they wouldn't like it if I pointed my pistol at them. Not a smart thing to say. Got hassled from the time I left till the time I got home. Got a shyster to get a copy of the surviellence tapes and turn it into the Police Dept. They got reprimands and I got 4 BS tickets in the next month. So much for the professionalism of local LE. County LE doesn't count. I have nothing but high regard for them.
 
Yes, not all LEO's are sell-outs to the Oligarchs. This is true of your local SWAT as well. They're simply LEO's who are trying to excell at all they do.
 
While the cops were disarming you, they might have been thinking...get in glove box check for narcotics...then I'm just the suspicious type trying to second guess everyones motives. Did you happen to notice they were looking and feeling around you car in other places? Your were obiously no threat to the Leos after they checked you out, why the diarming routine.
 
I had a similar experience last year in San Antonio's "suburb" Shavano Park (a fairly notorious speed trap. I WAS speeding.

First officer pulls me over and after declaration of weapon & license, asked me to exit vehicle while he waited for backup. He courteously informed me that this was policy and not a personal slight.

Second officer (shift sergeant) arrives, checks weapon, which was in a backpack in my truck cab. We BS for a couple of minutes, he convinces first officer not to ticket me, tells me he's glad to see citizens carrying to protect themselves, and suggests that I keep pistol on my person, for accessibility's sake.

Wasted some time, caused a little embarrassment, but CHL got me out of a dead-to-rights citation and reminded me that ther ARE many solid citizen-supportive LEOs out there.

Glad a downer turned into a positive, Kevin.

SA Scott
 
Kevin--
Interesting post, and thanks for your story. I'm also interested in where you reside.

I share concerns of others responding. I am a certified Texas Concealed Handgun License instructor, and a veteran peace officer. Our law requires Licensees to present their CHL to any officer who asks for ID. It further provides the officer MAY disarm the person contacted FOR OFFICER SAFETY, usually in some sort of high pressure situation, family fight, etc. BUT--once determined that there is no reason to arrest, the handgun is immediately returned to the owner.

S.O.P. in the Sheriff's Office where I work, is to presume that if licensee presents the credential as required, then he is a law abiding citizen. That being the case, our deputies simply conduct their business and depart. Absent some compelling reason, the deputy has no cause to handle a citizen's pistol, camera, jewelry or female relatives. And, the more often a stranger handles a loaded pistol, the higher the possibility of an honest mishap.

There may be a difference in philosophy around here. Most of us trust and like the public. If a person jumps through the hoops necessary to get a CHL, and undergoes the background and criminal records check, he is presumed to be a USDA certified, Grade One, GOOD GUY. Why should the officer throw his authority around and possibly antagonize a citizen who could become a friend, and who may be asked to approve a referendum for public safety pay hikes?

Most of my cop friends are personally GLAD there are properly qualified private citizens legally carrying guns. I know at least twice when this situation has helped officers out of a tight spot.

If the officer has reason to believe that he (or she, sorry ladies) is dealing with a criminal, well, other rules apply. But a casual contact on a traffic violation or offer of assistance with a flat tire is not cause for handling personal property.

12-34hom writes,
"Reason for actions of the two officers = Officer Safety. Just because a persons licensed to carry a firearm, does this make them any less lethal when being approached?"

Sorry--Can't buy that. By definition, a street cop goes out in harm's way, and if he can't handle it, should look for another line of endeavor. No need to be foolhardy or reckless, of course. In any one-on-one citizen-LEO contact, the cop with even minimal awareness has the upper hand: Superior training, rapid-draw holster, recent firearms qualification, etc. And again, there is a presumption that licensee has undergone recent scrutiny and was found to be a decent sort, not apt to twist off over a traffic contact and become violent.

In any case, Kevin, I'm glad the matter went off well and that your day was a bit brighter than it had begun.

Best regards to all,
RR

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
 
Kevinw-

I'm glad you considered this a positive encounter and felt the officers acted reasonably. However a couple concerns I had:

Didn't you say these officers were off-duty? Were they just off shift and still in uniform or on weekend and in plain cloths? How did they identify themselves as officers? This is a concern to me because any two-bit thug could buy a $10.00 badge out of a magazine and flash it to put you off guard before robbing you on the road side......Officer safety is one thing, but my personal safety is why I carry off duty.

I also have a problem with departments teaching thier officers to unload all firearms they encounter for officer safety. Negligent and accidental discharges are more likely to occur when manipulating an unfamiliar gun. Poor policy at its best. Officers do need to secure weapons, but in your case why not simply lock the untouched firearms in the glovebox and return the key as they left? I don't like the idea of having to explain to the boss why I accidentally discharged a weapon (even in a safe direction) while conducting a police action on my weekend.

On another note, what if you had been a serious collector and keeping the Colt new and unfired without its action ever having been manipulated? When the officer checked it after you told him of its condition, he ruined its untouched condition and collector's value as to that level. (I know collectors who do this) The off-duty officer was simply following what he had been taught as safe procedure and policy, but it would be him personally, not the department that would be buying that collector's piece.

The fifth firearms rule should be: Never touch another person's firearm without thier permission. Sometimes officer's have to go beyond this, but reason is still reason.

Second edit - oops, caught the off duty part, but he fact they were driving by in a marked police car and yo uflagged them down went right by me. Sorry 'bout that. However, the point is still valid, but I now realize why you didn't worry about thier actual status as officers.
[This message has been edited by yorec (edited July 15, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by yorec (edited July 15, 2000).]
 
Indiana had a 'declare' clause in their concealed carry law, but it was challanged and as of Jan 1, 2000 there is no mandatory declaration of having a CCW to a LEO. HOWEVER, after contacting a number of LEO's and LE agencies in Indiana I was told that it is GREATLY appreciated by the officers if you voluntarily inform them that you are CCW.

Some agencies in Indiana may have policy, as the Austin, Tx PD does, that when encountering a CHL holder he is to be disarmed before any other action is taken. I held up the activities of an Austin officer when he approached me as I was rendering first aid and controlling witnesses at a traffic accident. I had to inform him that I was carrying and I told him where both pistols were. He disarmed me so I could continue what I was doing, but he could not figure out the mag release, on the left side grip panel, of my Autauga. When other officers responded I asked for my guns back. He never did figure out how to unload it so he handed me back a loaded gun. The disarm was department policy and I have no problem with it if it makes them more comfortable.
 
I agree with 12-34hom, no matter what happened you will have people here that will find something to complain about in an encounter with LEOs.

Why unload the guns? The LEOs were approaching the situation as better safe than sorry. One thread commented on the officers possibly being fakes. Well how about the CCW permit being fake? I don't think it would be too hard to fake a CCW permit. Also, just because you have a permit that does not mean you are never going to be a BG or a nut. For all the LEOs knew the guy they were talkin with could of snapped, shot his wife ten minutes before and was now face with two LEOs that he was going to take out. Remember, truth is stranger than fiction.
 
Rocky Road: To me your statements indacte that.

#1. You underestimate the ability of someone you approach might have training equal or better than yours.

#2. Just because someone is licensed to carry firearms you can NEVER know what another persons mindset is on that particular day, moment etc...

#3. Yes i do go in harms way, and prefer not to end up as a statistic, i might end up that way, but not for being complacent on my part because i "assume" that this persons "OK" because they has the legal right to carry firearms.

#4. If this is the way you conduct your business sir, that's your style. [IMHO]=Those assumptions you have made about persons you approach, thier level of expertise with firearms, what mindset they may be in, is foolhardy and could get you killed. Traffic stops & domestic abuse calls are two of the most dangerous things police officers respond to and are killed while doing. You be the judge... Stay safe.
 
Dear Friends,

Whenever I consider this issue, one point keeps coming to the surface in my mind: I am one of the good guys!

By applying for and qualifying for the CHL, I have proven that not only am I free of any kind of criminal record, I also am so assertively law-abiding as to jump through hoops and pay money in order to excercise what is already my right.

When the officer finds out I have the CHL, he should feel much more at ease dealing with me than he does dealing with anyone else.

I live one block off a busy street, and officers often (once a week or so) pull people over along the curb just across from my house. Whenever I see it, I watch the whole episode from my window, just in case something goes down that threatens the officer. If it does, I'll be out there supporting him/her in a flash.

So although I will comply with what the officer wants in order to avoid legal trouble, I take it as a personal affront that he should feel threatened by me in any way.

Rant mode off.

JP

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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
 
The consenses here seems to be that the leos don't trust the leagally armed civilian wearing a loaded firearm. Therefore, when suspect is showing print or orally acknowledges he is carrying in compliance of regulations in his district to said officers he then has his gun unloaded and temporarily taken from him. All this so the cops mind is put at ease...as the gun toating civilian may go off his nut and become a psychopathic killer. But when the shoe is on the other foot...when cops shoot the crap out of a suspect (5-times) then cop gang stomp said suspect into submission...this sort of becomes the incredibly stupid double standard that seems to keep coming up. Is it just me, or is there really something wrong with this scenario.
 
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