COW
- Thread starter ammo.crafter
- Start date
Geezerbiker
New member
Did you ever consider that I was referring to an 06 case that had been run though a 77 Arisaka sizing die then cut off? The shoulders still need to be fire formed to get the correct shape...
I forgot about having to fire form K-Hornet cases but with those it really is load and shoot as normal...
Tony
Not exactly sizing up by fire forming, but it works.
-TL
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reynolds357
New member
That's about clear as swamp mud. Tell me how you would go about making brass for my 375 Ackley magnum without fireforming a H&H case. I would love to skip that step.
Forgive, yes I did, my favorite forming dies are the short one. I can form at least 5 different cases with a 308 W forming die (all you gotta do
) is be able to keep up with the difference in length between the 7.7 Japanese and the 308 W case from the shoulder to the case head. When forming with the 308 w die add the difference between the lengths of the cases between the bottom of the 308 W die and shell holder. I always add .010" for cases that are going to be sized to minimum length and go-gage length. And then there is no go-gage length, The .010" should take care of the cases that are being formed for the no go-gage length cases.And then there is my second most favorite forming die; that would be the 243 W forming die. When finished fire forming is not necessary, after firing my formed cases they are ejected as once fired cases.
F. Guffey
Geezerbiker
New member
Back when my Arisaka was one of 2 center-fire rifles that I had, I shot it a bunch and formed any 06 cases that crossed my path that weren't Win or Rem. I was once given a couple boxes of .270 rounds that all got pulled down and reformed for the Arisaka.
I'd like to have a forming die like that but I don't have any gun money at the moment. The set of RCBS dies I have do a pretty good job forming cases but I do loose a few.
Later on I found that 8mm Mauser cases were simple to form for the Arisaka. One trip though the dies, load and shoot. No trimming needed. Maybe I'll drag that old beast out of the safe and shoot it one of these days.
Tony
I'd like to have a forming die like that but I don't have any gun money at the moment. The set of RCBS dies I have do a pretty good job forming cases but I do loose a few.
Later on I found that 8mm Mauser cases were simple to form for the Arisaka. One trip though the dies, load and shoot. No trimming needed. Maybe I'll drag that old beast out of the safe and shoot it one of these days.
Tony
What needs to be added to Slamfire's post is that a big part of the help lubrication offers in fireforming is that it prevents the case sticking to the chamber well, so it backs up against the breechface without creating a pressure ring stretch just in front of the head. The overlubrication video shows a lot of oil does not blow a gun, which is the main myth element they failed to mention. However, the first time I shot an over-oiled Garand in a match, it sprayed enough oil mist onto my glasses that the sight picture was gone before the end of a rapid fire string. That's to be avoided.
Escape someone's attention? Not my attention, Again, all I want between the case and chamber is air, I do not want a lot of air but the air I have between the case and chamber has to get out of the way when the case expands. If there is oil and or grease between the case and chamber the reloader does not get an exemption, contamination of water with oil/grease should be a consideration,
I have no interest in determining just how embeddable the human body is and its tolerance for grease and oil, again, all I want between the case and chamber is air, again I do not want a lot of air and the air that I have between the case and chamber should be clean air.
Again, I am a case former, I form first and then fire.
One more time: I fired 8mm57 ammo in one of my 8mm06 chambers, the clearance between the shoulder of the 8mm57 round and the shoulder of the chamber was .127". when I ejected the round I found the case neck on the ejected case was very short from the shoulder/neck juncture to the end of the neck.
F. Guffey
reynolds357, forgive, I did not see anything beyond anything beyond swamp mud, and then? I have at least 17 forming dies, most of them have never been used for their intended purpose.
A builder of bench rest type rifles called to explain he had more rifles than he had cases, seems forming cases for his (at the time) wildcat was not easy, if it was easy he would not have called me.
I explained to him I had to determine if it was possible so I dug pug out the forming dies and started. He had 460 belted cases in all configurations that were long enough, I started with short forming dies. All I had to do was keep up with the length of the case from the case body/shoulder juncture meaning I had to adjust the die off the shell holder as much as .240",
After that we started, he had (I believe) 40 cases that would not fit the #4 shell holder, the 40 that would not fit the #4 shell holder had been hammered with heavy loads, we decided the work required to get those cases to chamber was not worth the effort.
F. Guffey
I am going to put you into the 'widely indignant about everything category'. You left out the part about being asked; I said if is was easy he would not have called me for help, he also said we were going to use Imperial sizing wax; problem, before I leave the shop I determine if it is possible to form the cases he needs. AND! I have said before: "I have a tuff time making Imperial look good; I do not compete, I use a no name lube, I do not have a problem with the lube I choose to use but there seems to be too many 'shooters that are widely indignant about almost everything.
The old builder had many 300 H&H cases, I did not include them because the 300 H&H is a long case with a long tapered case body. It is not necessary to fire form the 300 H&H, it is possible to form cases the old way.
http://www.whiddengunworks.com/products/hydraulic-form-die/
F. Guffey
And it is messy but primers can be removed with water and or oil and a big hammer and a few other tools reloaders would not recognize.
F. Guffey
Memory fails me but I believe they were using 'nearly' instead of everthing'.
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ammo.crafter
New member
cow
Thanks for the great info.
BTW I'm forming 7x30 Waters using 30-30 Winchester rounds.
Thanks for the great info.
BTW I'm forming 7x30 Waters using 30-30 Winchester rounds.
I got lots of oil and grease on my shooting glasses from over oiled/greased M1's, M1a's, and AR15's, with dry ammunition. I have no doubt that if I were to fired heavily greased or oiled ammunition in these weapons, there would be even more oil or grease in the air.
I recently glassbedded a Rem M700 in 35 Whelen and free floated the barrel.
I shot these cases over the last two weekends. Full power loads, like a 225 Sierra SPBT with 55.0 grains IMR 3031. No namby pamby cream of wheat stuffed loads, I fire the suckers first time with full power charges, and they shoot well. I have not up loaded the targets, but will in time.
All my 35 Whelen cases are necked up 30-06 cases, most of them recently annealed, and all fired heavily greased. Not only does this produce stress free, perfectly fireformed cases, but it also gives truer pressure indications. With the bolt fully loaded, I can detect over pressure indications earlier. I saw case face rub marks that probably would have been disguised if I had fireformed these cases dry. I also see the transition from rounded primers to flat primers, which is not always visible with dry cases in dry chambers. I did not have any disagreeable discharges of grease in the air, or to my eye glasses. This is the extent of mess on the rifle that I have to deal with:
I will say my fingers were greasey, handling the cases. The bathrooms at CMP Talladega have hot and cold running water and they are located at the low end and the high end of the range, so I wash up before I pack up and leave. Something I do anyway. In cold weather, that hair gel has lanolin and vasoline and it might help my skin from cracking.
I regularly shoot oiled ammunition in Bullseye Pistol matches, I put drops of oil on cartridges in the stack and fire the stuff. I have gone through as much as 1.5 ounces of oil firing 180 rounds. My ammunition is as light as I can have with reliable function and accuracy. Sometimes I have oil on the glasses, but I am not certain it is from the cases, though it could be. I am oiling the barrel hood of my M1911 ever 10 rounds and I frequently oil the hood and rails. I do believe that my function is more reliable, and that my chamber is cleaner as the oil dissolves fouling. I do believe oil reduces lead fouling as my barrels clean up very quickly. During Bullseye matches I am frequently wiping my M1911 as oil squeezed from the cases continuously lubricates the slide rails. This actually to the good as, veteran Bullseye shooters told me "your elbow is the drip point". Bullseye pistols are lubricated, kept lubricated, because these pistols are ungodly tight and we are of course, firing the least recoiling rounds. So having my ammunition add to the lubrication of the rails is good, just that I do have to wipe the pistol down occasionally through the match, to reduce the amount of oil coming out of the slide rails. It is messy and I always clean up after a match.
I really don't care if some air head prefers sprinkles on his ice cream or not. I am doing this to lower my costs, extend my case lives, and improve my firearm function. I think it may extend barrel life, but I doubt I will ever shoot any of my sporting rifles enough to know.
I have not seen anything from Goofy that indicates he can hit the black, never mind the ten ring.
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You guys think you have discovered something new, I have said for years and years I do not want anything between the case and chamber but air, I have always insisted on clean air and I insisted I do not want a lot of air.
And now? You are noticing grease on your glasses. I do not greases my bullets because I do not shoot streaker bullets, 'streaker bullets"? There was an article in a reloaders manual in about 1954 about streaker bullets and the artile suggested ways to clean the streaks left by streaker bullets. I have streaker bullets, I do not shoot them but I have them just in case I want to clean a barrel that has been streaked by streaker bullets.
F. Guffey
Bob Willman
New member
When I first loaded cast bullets in 30-06 back in the 1960s I used COW to keep the small powder charge at the base of the case. I do not know what the pressure was but the first 3 primers fell out of the empty cases as soon as I opened the bolt. After much study I came to the conclusion that COW is OK as a filler in a straight walled case but not in a bottle necked case. The granules do not easily pass through the tapered neck. I acquired some kapok fiber and had no more problems.
Bob
WB8NQW
Bob
WB8NQW
A foreign company claimed a reduced load can render a firearm to a heap of scrap. Reloaders did not buy into the concept because the foreign company could not duplicate the disaster ever time the trigger was pulled.
I do not shoot reduced loads, I understand some powders and loads are position sensitive.
F. Guffey
Back in the 70's,the gun mags often had articles about reduced loads,fillers.etc.
Once again,even with a straight walled case,my recommendation is just don't use cream of wheat. I have successfully used COW for case forming WITH NO BULLET. Your primers falling out are pretty good testimony.
Folks have learned the hard way (ringed barrels) that experimenting with fillers such as kapok is just not a good idea. It might be fun to do the development work,but the price of the "not so good" ideas,such as the wrong powder/filler combination,can be high.
We have a LOT of powders available.Some of the more ideal for sub loads with no filler will be listed either at the Hogdon site or in the load manuals.
I confess I have not played with TrailBoss,but that would be a powder I would research for a subload.
SR 4759 was a popular powder for reduced and cast bullet loads in rifle cartridges.Unfortunately,it may be discontinued.
I can't promise what result you will get,but if I wanted to make up a reduced load in a large volume case,and if I had no good data,I'd call Hogdon and ask questions.
Lyman has a book with cast bullet loading data.Accurate Powders might offer something.
While I'm NOT making any specific load recommendation,Nitro 100 is so fluffy they only put 12 OZ in a typical 1 lb powder can. I forget where I saw it,but it was recommended for large handgun cases like 45 Colt to get some fill.
But no Kapok,pillow fluff,etc for me.
Once again,even with a straight walled case,my recommendation is just don't use cream of wheat. I have successfully used COW for case forming WITH NO BULLET. Your primers falling out are pretty good testimony.
Folks have learned the hard way (ringed barrels) that experimenting with fillers such as kapok is just not a good idea. It might be fun to do the development work,but the price of the "not so good" ideas,such as the wrong powder/filler combination,can be high.
We have a LOT of powders available.Some of the more ideal for sub loads with no filler will be listed either at the Hogdon site or in the load manuals.
I confess I have not played with TrailBoss,but that would be a powder I would research for a subload.
SR 4759 was a popular powder for reduced and cast bullet loads in rifle cartridges.Unfortunately,it may be discontinued.
I can't promise what result you will get,but if I wanted to make up a reduced load in a large volume case,and if I had no good data,I'd call Hogdon and ask questions.
Lyman has a book with cast bullet loading data.Accurate Powders might offer something.
While I'm NOT making any specific load recommendation,Nitro 100 is so fluffy they only put 12 OZ in a typical 1 lb powder can. I forget where I saw it,but it was recommended for large handgun cases like 45 Colt to get some fill.
But no Kapok,pillow fluff,etc for me.
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