ammo.crafter
New member
Why do reloaders appear to use Cream Of Wheat as a filler when fire forming brass cartridges?
Are there other substances that can be used as well?
Are there other substances that can be used as well?
COW
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I always seat a cast bullet into the lands to do my fireforming.
All you need is a load that develops more than 12,000 psi and you're done.
Never used cream of wheat and never will.
If you don't have any cast bullets or have the molds, there are lots of places to buy them.
Most often I use Red Dot for that purpose cause I have a lot of it and it doesn't take much.
All you need is a load that develops more than 12,000 psi and you're done.
Never used cream of wheat and never will.
If you don't have any cast bullets or have the molds, there are lots of places to buy them.
Most often I use Red Dot for that purpose cause I have a lot of it and it doesn't take much.
Not me, I am a case former I form first and then fire, when I eject the case the case comes out of the chamber as a once fired case. Manufacturers do not sell cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. If a case requires an increase in length from the shoulder to the case head I have no problem necking the case up bid time, I am the only reloader that can not move the shoulder of a case back, and then there is that reloader that can not bump the shoulder back (same person-me).
And then there is increasing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head, if I am working with the 30/06 family of cases I have no problem with using the 280 Remington case and the feeler gage.
I do not use cereal, Chee roes or Raisin Bran, I do not like the idea of jamming up the cereal, I was at the pool hall when I heard some older reloaders talk about 'ringing' so I continue to form first and then fire.
F. Guffey
And then there is increasing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head, if I am working with the 30/06 family of cases I have no problem with using the 280 Remington case and the feeler gage.
I do not use cereal, Chee roes or Raisin Bran, I do not like the idea of jamming up the cereal, I was at the pool hall when I heard some older reloaders talk about 'ringing' so I continue to form first and then fire.
F. Guffey
ammo.crafter
New member
Breakfast cereal
Thanks all.
Thanks all.
It not just for breakfast!
And, its not just for fireforming. Basically Cream Of Wheat is an inert filler. It's light, takes up a lot of space, is cheap, and is found in nearly every home.
People use fillers when there is a concern about using a small powder charge in a large case, to keep the powder charge at the back of the case.
You can also find people using Kapok fiber as filler in the old literature. Some people have even used card wads to keep the powder in place in certain loads.
Some swear by it, some swear at it, but as far as I can see, it hurts nothing, and if it prevents erratic ignition, or worse, I don't see it as a bad thing.
I tried it once, and found no advantage, but that's probably because of the way I shoot. When I have forming loads, or gallery loads (essentially a small charge of powder in a large case) I point the muzzle UP, then lower it back down to level for firing. However, this is really only practical on the range. If I were using those loads in the field, I would use a filler, or more likely a different powder.
I'll see if I can clear up some misconceptions about the use of COW. It's an old-school technique that "somebody heard of" But maybe they only heard 10% or so and filled in the blanks with assumptions. Its good to QC assumptions because many of them ae wrong. COW gets used for wrong applications by folks who don't know its use.
Regardless of the things, it does not work very well for, there is one application where it excels. I have used it quite a bit. Ken Waters describes the process in Pet Loads...but, IMO, he messes up when he suggests corn meal. Use COW. But Ken's process description is good. I learned about it when I built a 35 Whelen. The task was necking up 30-06 brass. Necking up. That means the suggestion to use a cast bullet does not apply. Neither does Ackley improving. I think it would be a dangerous choice for a filler used behind a bullet. I do not use a bullet with COW.
OK. I hear the folks already. Just run the 30-06 brass through a 35 Whelen sizing die. Been there, done that, got the Tee-shirt. I got really lousy brass that way. The case necks do not stretch in a uniform, concentric way. It happens on one side. The spindle deflects to the path of least resistance, the shoulder become eccentric and neck uniformity is a joke.
"Aww, you just shoot it and it straightens out." No. You shoot it. I want better.
Now, I never did it, but I suspect if we buy a true forming die set from Redding, it will work. And I made a die that supported the case and guided a tapered rigid expander. But COW works better.
I will tell you what I did without recommending it. You are on your own. I used Bullseye. Ken Waters recommended about 10% of the typical rifle power charge weight. So, for 30-06, about 6 grs of Bullseye. You will adjust a bit for results, but don't get crazy. It's Bullseye. When I figured out what worked I used a dipper. I took primed brass and a loading block. I put the cases in the block as I loaded them with a charge of Bullseye. Next, I used a larger dipper and a powder funnel to fill the cases with COW. You can put a little toilet paper cork in them {for transport}.
I admit it's a bit tricky with a controlled feed rifle (if it won't feed brass without a bullet) to get the case under the extractor. I pulled the bolt, and set the cartridge in the bolt and loaded the bolt.
You may have to play with the charge to get a nicely formed case. Use virgin brass. Magic! For some reason, the brass stretches uniformly. Neck wall thickness remains uniform. Shoulders are concentric.
For BPCR shooting in 40 cal, the nice Hornady 405 Win brass was not yet available…and 30-40 Krag and 303 Brit were easy to come by. 40-60 Maynard was in the SPG load book. and 40-70 Sharps straight was simple Krag brass blown out to straight basic brass.
40-50 sharps was another rifle we fed. Once-fired brass would split, but virgin brass formed out beautifully.
I made about an 8 in long fireforming chamber to use in a 12 ga break shotgun. It was sort of like a 410 chamber insert. I used a 40-70 Sharps reamer and a letter drill that is .406 I believe to drill a "bore" through. That setup made hundreds of rounds of beautiful Krag and 303-derived 40 basic straight walled brass.
I agree, all the MISuses of COW are a bad idea. IMO, the ones that use a bullet are dangerous. If you are using 30 cal brass with a 30 cal bore…its a silly waste of time {then use a bullet}. But for opening up necks it works better than anything else I know of.
COW has a sort of hard, slick, semi-fluid texture as its blown through brass and it works good. Before you scoff…in the words of Elmer, "Hell, I was THERE!!"
PS: Articles on fillers for large volume cases used to be frequent. I read them. Kapok and Dacron fluff. I decided it was not for me. I don't pursue <700 fps loads. There are powders that are not position-sensitive, or there are fluffy powers like Nitro 100. For 45 Colt shooters, Starline has new low-volume 45 ACP length 45 Colt brass.
Folks have ringed barrels {and chambers} experimenting with fillers. And, in the dry, flammable Rocky Mountain West…I prefer not to risk blowing smoldering kapok tinder around.
These fillers have common characteristics: low weight, fluffy. They take up space but they are mostly air. COW is dense and heavy, not compressible. IMO, it's just wrong for bulk filler.
Regardless of the things, it does not work very well for, there is one application where it excels. I have used it quite a bit. Ken Waters describes the process in Pet Loads...but, IMO, he messes up when he suggests corn meal. Use COW. But Ken's process description is good. I learned about it when I built a 35 Whelen. The task was necking up 30-06 brass. Necking up. That means the suggestion to use a cast bullet does not apply. Neither does Ackley improving. I think it would be a dangerous choice for a filler used behind a bullet. I do not use a bullet with COW.
OK. I hear the folks already. Just run the 30-06 brass through a 35 Whelen sizing die. Been there, done that, got the Tee-shirt. I got really lousy brass that way. The case necks do not stretch in a uniform, concentric way. It happens on one side. The spindle deflects to the path of least resistance, the shoulder become eccentric and neck uniformity is a joke.
"Aww, you just shoot it and it straightens out." No. You shoot it. I want better.
Now, I never did it, but I suspect if we buy a true forming die set from Redding, it will work. And I made a die that supported the case and guided a tapered rigid expander. But COW works better.
I will tell you what I did without recommending it. You are on your own. I used Bullseye. Ken Waters recommended about 10% of the typical rifle power charge weight. So, for 30-06, about 6 grs of Bullseye. You will adjust a bit for results, but don't get crazy. It's Bullseye. When I figured out what worked I used a dipper. I took primed brass and a loading block. I put the cases in the block as I loaded them with a charge of Bullseye. Next, I used a larger dipper and a powder funnel to fill the cases with COW. You can put a little toilet paper cork in them {for transport}.
I admit it's a bit tricky with a controlled feed rifle (if it won't feed brass without a bullet) to get the case under the extractor. I pulled the bolt, and set the cartridge in the bolt and loaded the bolt.
You may have to play with the charge to get a nicely formed case. Use virgin brass. Magic! For some reason, the brass stretches uniformly. Neck wall thickness remains uniform. Shoulders are concentric.
For BPCR shooting in 40 cal, the nice Hornady 405 Win brass was not yet available…and 30-40 Krag and 303 Brit were easy to come by. 40-60 Maynard was in the SPG load book. and 40-70 Sharps straight was simple Krag brass blown out to straight basic brass.
40-50 sharps was another rifle we fed. Once-fired brass would split, but virgin brass formed out beautifully.
I made about an 8 in long fireforming chamber to use in a 12 ga break shotgun. It was sort of like a 410 chamber insert. I used a 40-70 Sharps reamer and a letter drill that is .406 I believe to drill a "bore" through. That setup made hundreds of rounds of beautiful Krag and 303-derived 40 basic straight walled brass.
I agree, all the MISuses of COW are a bad idea. IMO, the ones that use a bullet are dangerous. If you are using 30 cal brass with a 30 cal bore…its a silly waste of time {then use a bullet}. But for opening up necks it works better than anything else I know of.
COW has a sort of hard, slick, semi-fluid texture as its blown through brass and it works good. Before you scoff…in the words of Elmer, "Hell, I was THERE!!"
PS: Articles on fillers for large volume cases used to be frequent. I read them. Kapok and Dacron fluff. I decided it was not for me. I don't pursue <700 fps loads. There are powders that are not position-sensitive, or there are fluffy powers like Nitro 100. For 45 Colt shooters, Starline has new low-volume 45 ACP length 45 Colt brass.
Folks have ringed barrels {and chambers} experimenting with fillers. And, in the dry, flammable Rocky Mountain West…I prefer not to risk blowing smoldering kapok tinder around.
These fillers have common characteristics: low weight, fluffy. They take up space but they are mostly air. COW is dense and heavy, not compressible. IMO, it's just wrong for bulk filler.
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ShootistPRS
New member
When forming 358 Win. brass from 308 I just load the 308 brass with junk bullets and fire them in my 358.
That is what my smith told me to do and it has worked without a problem.
Case filler is often not used anymore because it can cause a ring to form in the leade area.
That is what my smith told me to do and it has worked without a problem.
Case filler is often not used anymore because it can cause a ring to form in the leade area.
"I was in the pool hall and I heard"
Please do whatever makes you happy. I'm cool with it.
I came to the conclusion to avoid Kapok,Dacron,etc for filler because I read of bore rings.But that is IMO,a different and unrelated subject.
In this entire thread,not one person mentioned the technique I described(and Ken Waters described in "Pet Loads")
Not one. Several tried to do "something" with COW,perhaps because they heard something at the poolhall about COW.But no one had any experience with using COW for opening up necks.THey used it for things its no good for.
Yet everyone has a negative opinion based on nothing but what they heard in a poolhall.
It works great I've done hundreds of them supporting four rifles.
I did my best to answer the OP. sadly,it was a waste of my time.
In some cases, a case must be fired to conform it to the contours of the new chamber. A material is necessary that will resist the expansion of the powder long enough to build up enough pressure to form the case. It is also useful if that material is not abrasive, corrosive and doesn't foul the barrel or action.
Any finely divided material could conceivably be used, but as noted, Cream of Wheat is inexpensive, readily available and does work. But, I think it would be a mistake to assume it is the only thing that can be used or that its use is necessarily widespread.
- Malt-o-meal
- Oatmeal
- Grits
- Instant Mashed Potatoes
- Acidi pasta
- Pretty much any form of flour
- Pretty much any form of powder starch
- Polyester fill
- Kapok
- Cork
You get the idea. Stay away from things that will be melted by the burning powder and can cause the action, like sugar or styrene plastics. Also, stay away from things that are abrasive like sand and clay-based animal litter.
I'm not arguing with you. Any/all of those things may work. I won't say they won't work because I have no experience with them. I have not tested them.
I think it would be irresponsible of me to recommend on this forum for folks to load materials I have no experience with. What would my recommendations be based on?My imagination?
Will my imagination cover all the variables? How does this material flow under pressure? Does it compress? Clog? Pack? Will it give the desired results? Will Murphy's law show up? Are you recommending loading them with Bullseye?
Not trying to get personal,but have you tested those suggested materials actually fireforming with them?
I have fireformed HUNDRED of rounds in multiple cartridges with the COW method. I can tell you from my hands on experience it works good.
COW granules are hard.They are slick. They are not springy or spongy.They have been "pearlized? The corners are rounded smooth. That's the difference between regular sand and quicksand. Simple milled grain does not have those characteristics.Those are part of why it works.
Its like powders through a powder measure. Ball,stick,flake..Short cut.How would cork,cornmeal,kapok work?
We are lighting a charge of Bullseye under it. What will flow in a way that forms the brass,and what will pack,compress,clog....?
I don't know. I know COW works.I've tested it.(But!! They can change COW any time)
I think we need to clarify the very different uses of fillers. They have nothing in common.
If a person wants a light load in a large cartridge case,with a given powder there may be a reason to use a filler to take up some powder space.The plan is to shoot a bore diameter bullet and hit a target.
That's all somewhat OK in theory. In practice,it can have some problems.
IMO,we have enough powders a better solution can be found. I do not experiment with these fillers.
I guess ,from what has been posted,some are curious about fireforming with a bullet that fits the bore AND some filler,such as COW. Like a belt AND suspenders.
IMO,this is completely misguided and potentially dangerous.
Use a fairly long bullet. It will bridge from the bore to the case neck.Use a recommended powder for that load. As pressure builds,the case will be "blow molded" to the chamber configuration. What on earth do you need a filler for?
IMO,forget them. A solution to a problem that does not exist.
Firing .308 catridges in a .358 ? OK. If it works for you,I won't argue with your experience.There is more than one way to do many things.Carry on!.What forms the necks up? Either a sudden flash of pressure...and with just neck tension,that may be challenging to achieve wth no bore to bullet seal...or you are using smokeless powder instead of COW for a media to open the neck.
I'm not doubting that it works for you,I'm just looking at how it works.What other possibilities exist?
IF you are using smokeless powder for forming media,compare the cost of a junk bullet and 40 plus grains of powder (about 150 loads per pound) to maybe 6 grains of Bullseye (over 1000 loads per pound) and a tablespoon of COW. But do whatever works for you.Its OK by me.
I'll bet you found you get better necks/shoulders than by jamming your decapping sindle/expander ball through.
The COW method I describe DOES NOT USE A BULLET!. It does not rely only on gas pressure to form the case. The COW media IS the case forming tool.
How would you turn 30-40 Krag brass into .405 Win or 40-70 Sharps straight brass?Its a moot point now. Krag brass is rare,and there is the excellent Hornady .405 Win brass now.
But before the .405 brass,we transformed hundreds of .303 and 30-40 brass into 40-50 Sharps,40-60 Maynard,40-70 Sharps. Easy! All with an old single barrel shotgun and a 40-70 chamber insert.It was even fun. I don't find necking up at the press fun.
Without a form die set,how would you make .400 Whelen brass? With your decap/expander spindle?
I prefer necking down,every chance I get. I make my .375 Taylor brass necking down .458 brass. But when .458 brass is scarce,blowing out .338 brass works great.
Now,think about this. An Old Curmudgeon Gunsmith told me a method of LENGTHENING brass.Like making 45-90 out of 45-70.
I have not tried it,I don't know if it works. But somehow Buffalo Arms sells some lengthened cases. It involves using an odd media inside the case.
And...its somebody's trade secret. Somebody makes some $ providing lengthened cases. I'm going to respect that and keep the secret.
Besides..it would only be scoffed . Waste of time.
. As a kid I hung around with Gunsmiths that were OLD when they sold Hogdon powder to me for $1.60 a pound in the 60's. They were part of the heyday of US Gunsmithing.
They tolerated and mentored me for a reason. I knew how to keep my hands folded behind my back. I knew how to ask permission. And at 14 I had more gun intelligence than most of the adult customers they dealt with. They spoke to me as someone they enjoyed passing on to.
No putting on an act of smoke,mystery,puzzles to feed their own ego.
And these Old Guys forgot more than than many of today's "experts" will ever know.One muzzle loader mentor out of Wyo went by the handle of "Flintlocker" W worked together. He mentored my first muzzle loader build.Then I became friends with the late Mike McCormick,prop Cache la Poudre Rifleworks. I learned from him,too,and built a few more rifles.
I treated them with respect,and in turn,they treated me with respect. They taught me.
I'm not a Veteran. By way of "immersion",I have learned from two brothers who served in the Army Special Forces.One was a Medic west of Da Nang in 1968.At an "A" camp minding the only active coal mine in VN at the time.Nong Son.
The other began as a platoon leader for a mechanized heavy mortar platoon in Panama before he went SOCOM. He was an A-Team commander for quite awhile.He held significant positions in SOCOM through his career. Yes,I'm being vague. I'm sure he would prefer that. He retired during the Clinton years,but has been developing weapons ,ammunition,optics,etc for SOCOM ever since.
Its best he decides what story gets told,but he has also helped me learn a lot.
Another brother has really dialed his Dillon 1050,and his 650,and his Square Deal.He shoots 3 gun some,and has some long range skills. He is dedicated to his AR-10T. I taught him a lot. He has his own way of turning that into more. I learn from him now.
It does not make me anyone special,its more a comment on a Gracious Host I had the Honor and Pleasure to meet...
I was invited by Elmer Keith to come to his home for coffee. I did. We sat in his trophy room and discussed many things. I was there to learn.And Respect.
I'll keep details of another friend and his shop private.He knows the older stuff.Lever guns,single shots,shotguns(Win 1897 guru) and wheel guns.
I spent 30 years as an R+D machinist,modelmaker,mold maker,insrument maker,and "Quality Assurance Co-Ordinator" They invented a new job title for what they needed me to do.
I offer what I can now. "Here,a bucket of rich Gold ore for you to pan"
You can do with it what you please.Take it! No charge.
Five years? Ten years? Tomorrow? The Angel of Death is coming.
Then what I have is gone.
I'm trying to give it away. I don't understand why its so hard.
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Most of the folks using filler between powder and bullet are trying to make ignition consistent. They can forget they are also making the powder space smaller, which raises peak pressure. A tiny tuft of polyester pillow ticking won't take up much of that volume, but filling the space between the powder and a bullet base with COW would. On top of that is the observed chamber ringing, which seems likely to be due either to elasticity of the filler or its ability to carry a pressure wave. Not worth messing with, IMHO, when you can just buy Trail Boss for light loads.
For case forming, the COW method is as HiBC describes it and is effective. I also agree with him that jumping to the use of a substitute material is something you would want to approach very cautiously. The use of COW may be a serendipitous discovery. It may be inside a band of combinations of bulk density and elasticity and coefficient of friction with the brass that is especially effective in the time frame of the firing event, in which dynamic effects caused by things that are insignificant at slow speeds can occur. Things like the inertia of the brass, the creation of compression zones in the COW or other flow factors that have plenty of time to equilibrate at loading press speeds but not at firing speeds.
So, experiment as you prefer, but I would actually fire any new candidate filler with a remote trigger cable on a gun I was willing to lose until the material was proven.
For case forming, the COW method is as HiBC describes it and is effective. I also agree with him that jumping to the use of a substitute material is something you would want to approach very cautiously. The use of COW may be a serendipitous discovery. It may be inside a band of combinations of bulk density and elasticity and coefficient of friction with the brass that is especially effective in the time frame of the firing event, in which dynamic effects caused by things that are insignificant at slow speeds can occur. Things like the inertia of the brass, the creation of compression zones in the COW or other flow factors that have plenty of time to equilibrate at loading press speeds but not at firing speeds.
So, experiment as you prefer, but I would actually fire any new candidate filler with a remote trigger cable on a gun I was willing to lose until the material was proven.
I regularly fire form cases with a lubricant on the outside of the case. This is a practice that Bench Rest National Champion's follow, for it produces a perfectly formed, stress free case. I also do not need to fire reduced loads and therefore do not monkey around with dangerous and unpredicatable combinations of food and gunpowder.
Initially I tested grease bullets, greasing the 30-06 cartridge cases with grossly excessive amounts of lubriplate 130 to see what happened. What happened was basically nothing other than I had to move my chronograph out further as the grease plume blown out the barrel caused errant readings!
My Marlin 30-30 has a huge chamber and if the cases were not lubricated on the initial firing, I am certain I would have experienced case head separations in a very short amount of time:
The base to shoulder distance is not controlled for belted magnums. Cases are very expensive for the 300 H&H Magnum, currently about $2.50 apiece now. It only makes economic sense to lube these cases and strive for maximum case life. Here are before and after fired 300 H&H Magnum cases. This site has a ridiculously low six picture limit per post, but rest assured they shot well out to 300 yards with full powder loads, and I would have posted the target if not for the picture limit. As such, I am not monkeying around with dangerous combinations of food and reduced powder, instead I am firing full power loads, and getting good zeros
There is a myth about over lubrication that is accepted as gospel within the shooting community. Unless you pack the barrel with grease, you can't over lubricate cartridges or guns.
Myth of over lubrication:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM
Initially I tested grease bullets, greasing the 30-06 cartridge cases with grossly excessive amounts of lubriplate 130 to see what happened. What happened was basically nothing other than I had to move my chronograph out further as the grease plume blown out the barrel caused errant readings!
My Marlin 30-30 has a huge chamber and if the cases were not lubricated on the initial firing, I am certain I would have experienced case head separations in a very short amount of time:
The base to shoulder distance is not controlled for belted magnums. Cases are very expensive for the 300 H&H Magnum, currently about $2.50 apiece now. It only makes economic sense to lube these cases and strive for maximum case life. Here are before and after fired 300 H&H Magnum cases. This site has a ridiculously low six picture limit per post, but rest assured they shot well out to 300 yards with full powder loads, and I would have posted the target if not for the picture limit. As such, I am not monkeying around with dangerous combinations of food and reduced powder, instead I am firing full power loads, and getting good zeros
There is a myth about over lubrication that is accepted as gospel within the shooting community. Unless you pack the barrel with grease, you can't over lubricate cartridges or guns.
Myth of over lubrication:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM
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If I stuff the case with something between the primer and bullet I put it there to hold the powder against the primer. I do not like the idea the powder could run to the front of the chamber or lay in the case between the rear of the case and bullet.
Fire forming, I am the fan of forming first and then firing, I have 16 forming dies. I do not grease my bullets, I avoid streaker bullets. At one time there was an attempt to reduce bullet streaking the barrel, during that time they started with scrubbing the barrel with a wire brush to remove chunks of stuff especially with rough barrels.
I still have a bunch of those bullets, I do not use them but I have them just in case.
F. Guffey
If I stuff the case with something between the primer and bullet I put it there to hold the powder against the primer. I do not like the idea the powder could run to the front of the chamber or lay in the case between the rear of the case and bullet.
Fire forming, I am the fan of forming first and then firing, I have 16 forming dies. I do not grease my bullets, I avoid streaker bullets. At one time there was an attempt to reduce bullet streaking the barrel, during that time they started with scrubbing the barrel with a wire brush to remove chunks of stuff especially with rough barrels.
I still have a bunch of those bullets, I do not use them but I have them just in case.
F. Guffey
Unclenick. During the dry years I experimented with cast bullets with light loads. I only had regular rifle powder so I went the filler route. I used a tiny square (0.5"x0.5") of single ply toilet paper. The idea is to keep the power close to the flash hole. It much reduced the position sensitivity. I no longer do that as the dry years have passed, and trail boss has become accessible.
Slamfire. I quite like your idea of lubing the brass. Didn't think of using it for fire forming, but I am sure it will much reduce head separation.
-TL
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Slamfire. I quite like your idea of lubing the brass. Didn't think of using it for fire forming, but I am sure it will much reduce head separation.
-TL
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Geezerbiker
New member
I used to make 7.7x58 our of '06 cases. All I ever did was load and shoot them as normal. I found that my formed cases lasted long and gave better accuracy than the high priced Norma brass.
Tony
Tony
You may find it rather hard to chamber a 30-06 round in a t99. 30-06 is longer than 7.7 Jap.
-TL
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