Court overrides teen-&-parent's decision to seek alternative cancer treatement.
- Thread starter Trip20
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Rich Lucibella
Staff
brickeyee-
Take it from someone who has been in the Medical Research industry:
Unless you are a large pharmaceutical company, there is no money for them there High Dollar Pharmaceutical Company Sponsored "Controlled Studies" on which Western Medicine survives and flourishes. It's just that simple.
Yet, still....some people, like this young man, go kicking and screaming into forced chemo having seen it fail (for them) the first time around. Go figure.
Rich
Take it from someone who has been in the Medical Research industry:
Unless you are a large pharmaceutical company, there is no money for them there High Dollar Pharmaceutical Company Sponsored "Controlled Studies" on which Western Medicine survives and flourishes. It's just that simple.
Yet, still....some people, like this young man, go kicking and screaming into forced chemo having seen it fail (for them) the first time around. Go figure.
Rich
Ausserordeutlich
Moderator
Rich, what do you think the REAL cure rate for previously-diagnosed, supposedly terminal cancer is in those "south-of-the-border" bordellos...er. clinics?
I never heard of anybody's being cured down there; have seen muy documentation and news reports of folks' dying down there, their having spent thousands of dollars for quack science remedies.
Some of the posts in this thread about alternative medicine sounds remarkably like chiropractic jabber.
I never heard of anybody's being cured down there; have seen muy documentation and news reports of folks' dying down there, their having spent thousands of dollars for quack science remedies.
Some of the posts in this thread about alternative medicine sounds remarkably like chiropractic jabber.
MeekAndMild
New member
Yes I agree. A lot of of 'stuff' seems to be floating by.
FYI the documented cure rate for Hodgkin's at St Jude's is 90% nowadays. St Judes normally takes treatment failures from local oncologists nationwide, doing risky experimental treatment. "Traditional" medicine has a really good batting record with this disease, even if we bow to the paranoid assumption that the "medical/drug company conspiracy" skims off all the easy cases and sends the hard cases to St Jude's.
IMHO rather than blocking "traditional" treatment which has known positive results the father would have better scratched his itch for independence by trying to get the kid a prescription of Marinol to cut down his vomiting or trying to get him transferred to St Jude's.
FYI the documented cure rate for Hodgkin's at St Jude's is 90% nowadays. St Judes normally takes treatment failures from local oncologists nationwide, doing risky experimental treatment. "Traditional" medicine has a really good batting record with this disease, even if we bow to the paranoid assumption that the "medical/drug company conspiracy" skims off all the easy cases and sends the hard cases to St Jude's.
IMHO rather than blocking "traditional" treatment which has known positive results the father would have better scratched his itch for independence by trying to get the kid a prescription of Marinol to cut down his vomiting or trying to get him transferred to St Jude's.
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Rich Lucibella
Staff
Bit too much of that going on around here, lately:
"My Grandma's cousin's best friend tells me that her experience was ...."
"I've never met anyone who survived a ....."
Yup, that's pertinent.....[I guess].
The St Jude's "90% Cure" mirrors what is available in any quality Hodgkins program....first time around....and they are to be commended on that, truly. But this kid is NOT first time around. He's been there and done that.
I'm not taking the side of the child or the State here. Just wanna keep the record straight.
Rich
While most studies are indeed sponsored by the pharmaceutical industry, if the Mexican clinics are so good at finding cures they could easily perform at least some limited study. Even a retrospective on their own patients would be a start.
The government also sponsors studies, sometimes with big pharma, sometimes without.
The problem with trying to evaluate many alternative treatment regimes is the complete lack of reliable data. What is revealed is anecdotal or ‘cherry picked’.
Neither inspires a great deal of confidence.
The government also sponsors studies, sometimes with big pharma, sometimes without.
The problem with trying to evaluate many alternative treatment regimes is the complete lack of reliable data. What is revealed is anecdotal or ‘cherry picked’.
Neither inspires a great deal of confidence.
"they could easily perform at least some limited study. Even a retrospective on their own patients would be a start. The government also sponsors studies, sometimes with big pharma, sometimes without."
brickeyee,
There have been studies done on alternative therapies. There IS data. You are just making generalizations and assumptions. Just because you haven't read about alternative treatments on the front page of the Post doesn't mean they are bogus. It does mean that big medicine isn't interested about treating people, but just making money.
When I was a kid, I had a friend that was deathly allergic to bees. He got stung while at my house. While his mom was getting ready to take him to the ER, my mom gave him some homeopathic "arnica" pills. We ended up going back outside to play.
Next time you get a bee sting, take some arnica. In fact, keep some on hand. To you, they are sugar pills, and they are completely harmless. But you'll be surprised when your sting doesn't swell up AT ALL. It will cost you about $3.
Arnica also can be used for swelling, pain and bruises. But you won't find it in any traditional doctor's office. They instead want to shoot you full of pain killers. A shot of demarol costs maybe $50. An arnica pill costs $.05.
I'm telling you this because I want you to try ONE thing an ordinary doctor wouldn't give you. And THEN I want you to come back here and tell me "alternative treatments" in general are witchcraft.
brickeyee,
There have been studies done on alternative therapies. There IS data. You are just making generalizations and assumptions. Just because you haven't read about alternative treatments on the front page of the Post doesn't mean they are bogus. It does mean that big medicine isn't interested about treating people, but just making money.
When I was a kid, I had a friend that was deathly allergic to bees. He got stung while at my house. While his mom was getting ready to take him to the ER, my mom gave him some homeopathic "arnica" pills. We ended up going back outside to play.
Next time you get a bee sting, take some arnica. In fact, keep some on hand. To you, they are sugar pills, and they are completely harmless. But you'll be surprised when your sting doesn't swell up AT ALL. It will cost you about $3.
Arnica also can be used for swelling, pain and bruises. But you won't find it in any traditional doctor's office. They instead want to shoot you full of pain killers. A shot of demarol costs maybe $50. An arnica pill costs $.05.
I'm telling you this because I want you to try ONE thing an ordinary doctor wouldn't give you. And THEN I want you to come back here and tell me "alternative treatments" in general are witchcraft.
Ausserordeutlich
Moderator
Why would ANYBODY think that "scientists/doctors" trained in one of the most corrupt, backwards, third-world countries on Earth would be competent to find cures for cancer? Trips to Mexico for miracle cures are made by desperate folks in denial.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
I now understand why we don't accept the cancer drugs commonly available in places like England, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands and France. These are certainly some "the most corrupt, backwards, third-world countries on Earth". Anybody actually checked their morbidity/mortality rates lately?
Rich
Arnica doesn't look very promising, link below. And anyway, bee stings bother me less than mosquito bites.
arnica - summary of research.
www.herbmed.org/Herbs/Herb92.htm
P.S. - The folks I've known who were deathly allergic to bee stings would have died while their mom was getting ready to take them to the ER.
arnica - summary of research.
www.herbmed.org/Herbs/Herb92.htm
P.S. - The folks I've known who were deathly allergic to bee stings would have died while their mom was getting ready to take them to the ER.
Ausserordeutlich
Moderator
Seriously, Rich, I wasn't trying to just be provocative in my reference to Mexico as "Third World." I don't see Mexico's fitting in with the countries that you mentioned. Is Sweden really as "Third World" and corrupt as Mexico, for example? How many scientific/engineering, etc., breakthroughs can you think of that came out of Mexico?
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Ausser-
Mexico has contributed nothing to Modern Medical Science? What about Thalidomide, Radical Breast Mastectomy and Frontal Lobotomy.....oops, you're right....each of those "advances" was pure American Medical Association. How about kids and Ritalin? Oops, I missed again.....Mexico doesn't hand those out to every kid who talks out of turn in class. Only in America.
Enjoy your treatment and remember not to ask too many questions. Somebody might turn you in for supporting butchery or quackery.
Rich
Mexico has contributed nothing to Modern Medical Science? What about Thalidomide, Radical Breast Mastectomy and Frontal Lobotomy.....oops, you're right....each of those "advances" was pure American Medical Association. How about kids and Ritalin? Oops, I missed again.....Mexico doesn't hand those out to every kid who talks out of turn in class. Only in America.
Enjoy your treatment and remember not to ask too many questions. Somebody might turn you in for supporting butchery or quackery.
Rich
V4Vendetta
New member
I am a believer in alternative medicine. I used to have blinding pain in my knees & shins. My mother took me to a regular doctor who said that it was nothing to worry about, just growing pains. They didn't go away. So my mom took me to a microbiologist who examined my blood. I then found out that my blood type does not absorb the calcium from milk. So I started taking calcium & magnesium pills with other vitamins. I haven't had the pains in years
.
We have a friend who is a reflexologist. His wife had cancer & was told by the hospital to settle her affairs. She decided to eat just raw organic fruits & vegetables for a year. No meat, no coffee, just water. Her husband did reflexology on her feet. It's been 10 years now & she's still going strong .
The moral of the story is that doctors don't know spit. That's why they use all those fancy medical terms so that they can sound clever. And even if they are smart, they don't care to get you well because there is no money in the cure. Just the treatment.
. We have a friend who is a reflexologist. His wife had cancer & was told by the hospital to settle her affairs. She decided to eat just raw organic fruits & vegetables for a year. No meat, no coffee, just water. Her husband did reflexology on her feet. It's been 10 years now & she's still going strong
. The moral of the story is that doctors don't know spit. That's why they use all those fancy medical terms so that they can sound clever. And even if they are smart, they don't care to get you well because there is no money in the cure. Just the treatment.
MeekAndMild
New member
Its my understanding they are publishing their TOTAL cure rates, not first time around rates. If what has been said by certain, um, local experts about the medical/drug company/government establishment is true then wouldn't it be natural for these wicked people to send their failures to St Judes?
BTW Rich, Thalidomide was invented by the Swiss and marketed by the Germans. It didn't affect the American population.... (except I suppose the ones who went abroad for "alternative treatments"?)
http://www.rlc.dcccd.edu/MATHSCI/reynolds/thalidomide/history/history.html
Lobotomy? Oh, dear! Germany? Portugal? Spain? Japan? http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/lobotomy.html
Radical mastectomy? Geeze Rich, you had to dig all the way back to 1882 for that one. Halsted did his surgical training under Bilroth in Vienna, Austria. More recently, the Halsted radical mastectomy has been out of favor for at least 30+ years.
I tend to agree with you about Ritalin use. I think that 85% of ADHD cases in this country are either misdiagnosed mood disorders, adjustment disorders, t.v. addiction syndromes or just plain lack of exercise. Ritalin was also a Ciba product, invented in Europe.
But all these are off topic. I believe the main question here regards what is the truth and what is the chaff regarding this kid with Hodgkin's disease.
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Ausserordeutlich
Moderator
Rich, hopefully, neither you nor I will require any treatment. I can guarandamntee you, however, that any treatment I receive won't be in Tijuana. Pointing out mistakes of countries that have actually been successful @ innovation in no way relates to countries like Mexico that have been, if anything, counterproductive to Western Civilization.
Pointing out mistakes of countries that have actually been successful @ innovation in no way relates to countries like Mexico that have been, if anything, counterproductive to Western Civilization."There have been studies done on alternative therapies. There IS data."
Yes. I have seen the data. And it has shown every single time that the effectiveness if the therapy couldnot be determined.
"You are just making generalizations and assumptions. "
You are the one making assumptions. You have no idea what I have seen.
As for your seemingly almost reflexive hatred of modern medicine, while it does have some problems it has brought about the greatest extension in life expectancy over the past few hundred years ever seen.
Many of the ‘herbal’ remedies have been investigated and some found to have use.
Many others are found to be no better than a placebo, and even some patients on a placebo do better. That does not make sugar pills a recognized therapy.
Yes. I have seen the data. And it has shown every single time that the effectiveness if the therapy couldnot be determined.
"You are just making generalizations and assumptions. "
You are the one making assumptions. You have no idea what I have seen.
As for your seemingly almost reflexive hatred of modern medicine, while it does have some problems it has brought about the greatest extension in life expectancy over the past few hundred years ever seen.
Many of the ‘herbal’ remedies have been investigated and some found to have use.
Many others are found to be no better than a placebo, and even some patients on a placebo do better. That does not make sugar pills a recognized therapy.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
It's completely irrelevant whether modern medicine or alternative treatment is more effective.
The question at the core of this issue is this: do people have the right to make medical decisions for themselves and their children, or does the State have the right to make those decisions for them?
Anyone who argues that the State has the right to override the will of the parents and the child in question cannot seriously complain when twenty years down the road the same State starts removing children from houses with firearms in them...once you concede principle, it is pointless to argue degree. There is no middle ground here.
The question at the core of this issue is this: do people have the right to make medical decisions for themselves and their children, or does the State have the right to make those decisions for them?
Anyone who argues that the State has the right to override the will of the parents and the child in question cannot seriously complain when twenty years down the road the same State starts removing children from houses with firearms in them...once you concede principle, it is pointless to argue degree. There is no middle ground here.
MeekAndMild
New member
That was a battle the State won in 1957 in Little Rock, AR. The rest is just a slippery slope with reducing need for the State to produce moral justification every time we slip another step. (Actually, according to Wikipedia the Prussians established compulsory education against parental will in 1819. This idea spread to Massachusetts in 1852 and from there the rest of the US. The UN declared it to be a 'human right' in 1948. The 1957 battle was just the first major one where the State turned really oppressive to the kids and parents involved with TV cameras and live radio reporting.)
A humble suggestion would be to put the 1981 Allen Arkin movie Improper Channels on your Netflix queue, then when it arrives drink a beer or two while you ponder the facts of life in these United States.
It would be good to see parents win one every now and then, but they won't unless they have their facts straight, hire an expensive lawyer and have a real alternative plan.
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I've been listening to this argument since I was a kid. I remember court cases in Texas in the 1940s, where some Christian Scientists would pray over some guy with pneumonia--and then pray at the funeral.
The upshot was that the state would only step in to protect a minor child.
Cancer? These Mexican "clinics" have also been around forever. Steve McQueen snatched at that straw; I think some sort of peach-pit deal was his thing. He's dead. They're about as effective as the 1920s/1930s "Goat Gland" doctor with his radio stations along the border, beaming into the US about his wondrous restorative "Be a man again" deal. Giant shuck.
For all that I'm against government interference in family affairs, I'm sure not on the parents' side when what the free choice comes down to, mostly, is a dead kid.
I guess I'm lucky. I self-diagnosed my own cancer in time to come out clean from the surgery. (Although I told the surgeon I'd made cleaner cuts, guttin' a deer.) A real good friend of mine didn't. Got a call from his widow, the other day. And I've learned more about skin cancer than I really wanted to, for that matter.
I ain't goin' to Mexico for treatment.
Back to the kid: If the parents guess wrong, and all this Mexico hoo-ha is wrong guessing, the cancer metastacizes and the kid's dead. Question: Do parents have the right to be so wrong that the kid dies? 'Cause that's what's gonna happen.
Art
The upshot was that the state would only step in to protect a minor child.
Cancer? These Mexican "clinics" have also been around forever. Steve McQueen snatched at that straw; I think some sort of peach-pit deal was his thing. He's dead. They're about as effective as the 1920s/1930s "Goat Gland" doctor with his radio stations along the border, beaming into the US about his wondrous restorative "Be a man again" deal. Giant shuck.
For all that I'm against government interference in family affairs, I'm sure not on the parents' side when what the free choice comes down to, mostly, is a dead kid.
I guess I'm lucky. I self-diagnosed my own cancer in time to come out clean from the surgery. (Although I told the surgeon I'd made cleaner cuts, guttin' a deer.) A real good friend of mine didn't. Got a call from his widow, the other day. And I've learned more about skin cancer than I really wanted to, for that matter.
I ain't goin' to Mexico for treatment.
Back to the kid: If the parents guess wrong, and all this Mexico hoo-ha is wrong guessing, the cancer metastacizes and the kid's dead. Question: Do parents have the right to be so wrong that the kid dies? 'Cause that's what's gonna happen.
Art