Couple questions....

R

Running Gunfight

New member
I am wondering if anyone here considers himself a moderate. Well?

I am beginning to develop the suspicion that people who post on boards are radically off center for the most part. This may the trend in internet boards. It seems like the new talk radio to me.

Also, has anyone ever voted for a candidate and vowed to never vote for him again because of something he did in office? Anyone ever feel betrayed by a candidate or is it more comfortable to ride the ship to the ocean floor?

If my suspicion is right, I think that the positive answers to this question will be, "Yes. I voted for this guy, but he wasn't an extreme conservative enough for me or he wasn't an extreme progressive enough for me, which pi$$ed me off, but I had to vote for him again because the other guy was from the other side."

For years, I avoided politics. I am taking a look into it again now to see if anything has changed. It seems it hasn't. It damages my view of the American people. We get what we deserve all too often.
 
I don't know how to classify myself.

Here's what I believe: (Disclaimer: What I "believe" and "do" are two entirely different things, so don't panic Mr. ATF or FBI troll that looms and reads these threads)

I believe I should be able to own any firearm I want, regardless of mechanical or cosmetic characteristics, without having to register or pay an additional tax. NFA laws can kiss my grits.

I believe I should be able to carry anywhere I please without a license, other than publicly owned buildings, like courthouses, police departments, etc. The whole "public gathering" phrase can kiss my grits.

I shouldn't have to wait five days for anything. More people die in car wrecks each year than by firearm related injuries and I can go to the dealer today and leave with a brand new, four-wheeled killing machine.

I should be able to purchase whatever ammunition I want, whether it's Ranger SXT's or API.

I despise the term "any other weapon?" Just what is "any other weapon" exactly? Could we be any more vague? "Any other weapon" could include my highly polished combat boot up Diane Feinstein's bunghole. "Any other weapon" could include Diane Feinstein's fecal matter that I scrape out of my waffle and fling into Ted Kennedy's hair.

These are just some of the things I believe, so what am I? A moderate?
 
Yes, I'd have to say I'm a moderate.

I still count myself among the Republican fold, but I strongly disagree with the party line on things like abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, and many of the "reforms" that are being undertaken in the name of national security. I was also adamantly opposed to going to war with Iraq and still believe it to be the wrong thing to have done.

I feel incredibly betrayed by George Bush, and am exceptionally disappointed in the past 4 years.

That said, I can never imagine myself voting for a Democrat because I am virulently against their platform on so many issues it's not even funny.
 
Between Authoritarian and Anarchist I consider myself close to the middle.

Looks about like this: Anarchist | | | | me | | | | | | Authoritarian
 
I'm more or less in the same boat as Mike Irwin. I'm voting Bush this year because Kerry is disgusting, but I don't have to like it.

I'm probably closest to the Libertarian party, but some of their ideas (and ALL of their candidates) are insane :)
 
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I suspect that Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, et al would be regarded as "radically off center" in today's political climate.
 
ALL of their candidates) are insane
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Sigh.....


It's a sad state of affairs when certain positions like questioning the need for social security numbers and driver's licenses are considered "insane".

When that's the biggest dirt you can dig up on the opposing candidate....it's time to re-evaluate your position.

AFAIK, Badnarik didn't sign an order saying the F.B.I. can't touch Al-Qaeda like Bush jr. did, or take off more trade restriction with China than Clinton and then sign a phony ban of Norinco products to make it look convincing, or like Clinton give North Korea the capacity to nuke us, but those are just minor things right? Certainly not insane. Don't get me started.... :rolleyes:
 
I suspect that Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, et al would be regarded as "radically off center" in today's political climate.
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Indeed. Give me liberty or give me death. That's not something you're gonna hear Peter Jennings say.
 
FWIW...Peter Jennings is a Canadian.

I am...
Pro War
Pro Life
Pro Death Penalty
Pro Constitution


Anti... government interference in the private lives of individuals. Who are they to mandate safety belts, air bags, food and drug safety, restrictions on firearms ownership, regulations on alcohol and tobacco, speed limits, telecommunications, taxation, job place safety,
land usage, education, etc, etc, etc. Isn't there something in the US Constitution that states that all powers not specifically granted to the Federal Government are reserved for the various states?
Whassup wit dat?????

I'm holding my nose and voting for Bush. Sure, he likes to wipe with the Constitution but I'm afraid that's nothing compared to what we'll get with Kerry.
 
Well....

I myself am torn in many directions politically (obviously).

I am a Christian and as such, I believe strongly in the values of peace, understanding and brotherhood. I think above all, Christ "did good". If one lives his life in this endeavor, that IMO is following, as best a man can, the philosophy of Christ. Simple, I know, but IMO it isn't rocket science either.

I don't disdain money, but I don't hunger after it as much as many (most) Americans seem to. IMO, $$$ has replaced God in the USA. God was never really #1 here as IMO the founding fathers envisioned a capitalistic society free from government and religious intervention. Both sides complain about the result, but it seems logical to me that those ideas could result in the current situation, basically that God is not in the schools and that corporations and a ruling elite run the show. I consider Kerry part of that elite as much as I do Bush, and I mean that.

One reason I admire soldiers, criminal justice pros, teachers and nurses is that not many of these folks make a ton of $$$ and I hope that there is a higher calling there. That is pie in the sky thinking, but there you go. The bad ones make the headlines because they are the exceptions. The LEO who abuses authority, the nurse caught stealing morphine, the teacher who has sex with a student, etc. The overwhelming majority of the above are very effective at what they do, from my experience.

I also must believe in the constitution and the bill of rights-every word. I believe in the separation of church and state, the right to bear arms, search and seizure, etc., etc., etc. I don't feel that we should pick and choose which ones to follow based on ideology. We should stick with it. It is what makes the USA the USA.

Although I am a Christian, I personally have difficulty with government dictating morality. I feel that if an action harms only the actor, it should not be illegal. Basically, only acts that infringe on the rights and properties of others should be illegal.

I would never force my Christian views on others. I know that many feel that by evangelizing, they are doing what Christ wanted insofar as they are fishing for men, and I understand why they feel that way, but I do not.

I ultimately see religions as instruments to separate rather than unite people.

I see nations as little more than tribes that separate men, but understand that in this geopolitical world man has created, there is a need for a common defense of a nation. However, I feel that the United States should have to declare war in order to go to war.

I also believe in the social contract theory. I feel that a society has a responsibility to aid its weaker members. Without this, there is in essence, no society IMO. If charity falls short in this regard, government, as a servant of a society, should fill the void. People should never be suffering and dying from disease and malnutrition as occurred here during the great depression. This is the United States, not India. IMO, we have too many americans who do not have adequate health care in this country. How to fix it? I don't know, but it disturbs me.

I feel that a corporate state such as one that essentially existed here prior to TR's trust-busting is as dangerous as one in which government holds too much power. Ultimately, government must serve the people and exhibit influence over corporate power.

IMO, true capitalism does not currently exist here in the USA. It is not allowed to exist.

Final thoughts:

Ultimately, I fear we are headed back to the days of Hoover in more ways than one.

All the good presidents are on Mt Rushmore, more or less.

Not really a party out there that represents me, I am afraid.
 
I myself am torn in many directions politically (obviously).
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I think a large contributing factor to that is that you haven't done your homework, you've just soaked up some common ideas. Common misunderstandings, I should say. I don't say that to be insulting, but just in this one post I see a lot of popular misconceptions that would be quickly cleared up for you if you were to do some serious reading. Let me take them one at a time. Again, this is not to be insulting or patronizing, just trying to help you get clear on some basics.

I am a Christian and as such, I believe strongly in the values of peace, understanding and brotherhood.
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Good so far, as long as you understand how Jesus defined brotherhood. It's NOT the "brotherhood of all mankind".


I think above all, Christ "did good".
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Now there's a MAJOR mistake. Yes, He did good, but that was NOT the point of his life. His sacrificial death was the "above all" of His life.


If one lives his life in this endeavor, that IMO is following, as best a man can, the philosophy of Christ.
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Christ didn't come to present a philosophy, he came to present a claim - HIS claim to be your Lord. Take it or leave it, but don't try to make it some fuzzy do-gooder "philosophy".



God was never really #1 here as IMO the founding fathers envisioned a capitalistic society free from government and religious intervention.
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It's obvious you've never read much of the FF. Nothing could be further from the truth. Except for Jefferson and Franklin, the major Founding Fathers were devout Christians who wanted America to be a Christian nation. Like it or not, agree with it or not, that's just the way it was.

One reason I admire soldiers, criminal justice pros, teachers and nurses is that not many of these folks make a ton of $$$ and I hope that there is a higher calling there. That is pie in the sky thinking, but there you go.
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It's not pie in the sky, it's just WRONG. There's nothing inherently virutuous in poverty. There are plenty of evil poor people, and good rich people. It IS commendable to server your fellow man and to sacrifice to do so, but to impute virtuous motives to entire classes of people just because they don't make much money is naive, at best.


I also must believe in the constitution and the bill of rights-every word.
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That's good.


I believe in the separation of church and state,
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That's bad.

Why?? Because there's nothing like that in the Constitution. It's an invention of the Supreme Court, not heard of until the middle of the 20th century. Oh, yes, those words are found a long time before that, in a letter that Jefferson wrote. But Jefferson meant the exact OPPOSITE of this idea of "separation of church and state". He meant that the State was not allowed to interfere with the church. He did NOT mean that the church had to stay out of the state! Look it up some time. Do a search on "Baptist Danbury" and Jefferson, and I think you'll find it/


the right to bear arms, search and seizure, etc., etc., etc. I don't feel that we should pick and choose which ones to follow based on ideology. We should stick with it. It is what makes the USA the USA.
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Hear hear! It's also what makes us free.

Although I am a Christian, I personally have difficulty with government dictating morality. I feel that if an action harms only the actor, it should not be illegal. Basically, only acts that infringe on the rights and properties of others should be illegal.
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Well, God has a different opinon that you, it seems. Check Romans 13.


I would never force my Christian views on others. I know that many feel that by evangelizing, they are doing what Christ wanted insofar as they are fishing for men, and I understand why they feel that way, but I do not.
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Well, again God has a different opinion. Have you ever heard of "The Great Commision"?


I ultimately see religions as instruments to separate rather than unite people.
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Which religions?


I also believe in the social contract theory. I feel that a society has a responsibility to aid its weaker members. Without this, there is in essence, no society IMO. If charity falls short in this regard, government, as a servant of a society, should fill the void.
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Where do you find that in the Constitution? What happened to "every word"?

People should never be suffering and dying from disease and malnutrition as occurred here during the great depression. This is the United States, not India. IMO, we have too many americans who do not have adequate health care in this country. How to fix it? I don't know, but it disturbs me.
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Well, if you are hinting that the Federal government should fix it, you'll have to do one of two things:

  1. Ignore the Constitution.
  2. Pass an amendment.

The Federal goverment has NO AUTHORITY to have anything to do with health care or any other social care. No retirement planning, no welfare. None. Zero. Zip.

But you've got another problem. You haven't understood that freedom and security don't go together very well. If we are to be free, we must be free to succeed or fail. They are the two sides of the coin of liberty. Responsibilty and rights, freedom and failure. You can't do away with one without doing away with the other.


I feel that a corporate state such as one that essentially existed here prior to TR's trust-busting is as dangerous as one in which government holds too much power. Ultimately, government must serve the people and exhibit influence over corporate power.
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There was a time when corporations were NOT regarded as "persons" under the law. They were always temporary, and did not have the rights of persons.

That was a GOOD thing.




A few last suggestions:

  1. Recognize that you don't know nearly as much as you think you do. If you had a recent public school education, you got more indoctrination than education. Not your fault, but it's time to correct it.
  2. Stop doing so much 'feeling' and spend more time thinking. There are too many people in this country who are operating on emotion instead of reason.
  3. Do some homework. I mean do some SERIOUS reading. Start with the Constitution, and then read The Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist papers.
 
Ok....

I am not going to get into interpreting the gospels and how Jesus interpreted brotherhood. Everyone has an opinion. Bush called Jesus his favorite philosopher. My Christianity may not mirror his. Christianity IMO provides a philosophy.

I don't see the Bible as simply a rulebook and I do not rely on doctrine for my interpretation of it. I believe in the concept of a personal interpretation. If I were forced to interpret Christianity like some people I know were raised to, I might not consider myself a Christian.

I understand the role of the savior. Perhaps I should have said that, "Christ provided a model by doing good, etc." and left out the "above all". IMO, it is a fuzzy do-gooder philosophy, for lack of a better term.

IMO, the FF were essentially deists and desired a secular society which allowed them economic freedom.

As for public servants and nurses, etc., many forego higher wages in the private sector to do something that gives them a sense of satisfaction in helping others or doing good for the community, etc-I know a few. I admire them for that. Sorry. I hate to rain on the greed is good parade. Everyone has something that they strive for-good health, $$$, family life, whatever. $$$ is not always that thing, even in the USA. I still feel that $$$ is the most popular deity in the USA-difficult to argue that.

As for the 1st amendment, it is obviously open to interpretation. They all are. This is why I am torn. I ultimately feel that government and religion should be apart. I feel that anything even remotely resembling a theocracy is not a viable form of government and that policy decisions should be made accordingly.

IMO, religions (creations of man) have done their fair share in instigating war, genocide and repression. ALL religions are flawed, as mankind is, and susceptible to corruption and abuse.

A belief system is often a convenient reason to, if not hate, then dismiss or marginalize other people who don't share that view. Religion often acts as another difference between people who are also different in other ways. I have known Baptists who don't like Catholics, Episcopals who don't like Baptists, Christians who don't like Muslims or Buddhists, etc.

Sidenote-I actually had a conversation with a Christian youth counselor from a local church that I would consider "fundamentalist" who told me that the military was in Iraq to, "provide the people freedom." As naive as that might be, he also said that, when I mentioned the estimated number of young americans killed and severely wounded and the numbers of Iraqi dead, civillians included, we should, "slaughter them by the thousands (he may have said millions). Force and power are the only things those people understand." I am a veteran and I almost asked him, "What is this WE stuff? Are you going to be pulling the trigger?" THIS is an example of a Christian youth counselor? Not my Christianity. Sorry.

As for the social contract theory, I didn't say that the Constitution was the ONLY thing I believed in. In your opinion, then, a society should NOT care for the weaker members and simply allow them to starve off as in any one of a number of 3rd world countries? Is this your vision of the United States? Brrrrrrr. I know, private charity will take care of them. :rolleyes:

Personally, I don't want the United States to be a military state.

I noticed you chose not to critique the statement that we should have to declare war in order to go to war. That is part of the constitution that would be hard to follow.

I guess we will agree to disagree on several matters.

As for education, I recently earned an MS from a private institution.

Also, I read the fed and anti-fed papers YEARS ago.

Sure glad you didn't mean to be insulting or patronizing. :rolleyes:
 
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As for the 1st amendment, it is obviously open to interpretation. They all are. This is why I am torn.
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You are torn because you believe that words mean what you get out of them, rather than what the speakers intended. As long as you hold that foolish idea, you will remain torn.

About everything important.
 
In your opinion, then, a society should NOT care for the weaker members and simply allow them to starve off...
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Check out Ishmael by Daniel Quinn sometime. Even if you don't agree, it's an interesting view.
 
Quartus is right on this...too often people take words for what they believe they can get out of them (or twist them into) and totally ignore the intention of the speaker.
 
Running Gunfight said:
As for the social contract theory, I didn't say that the Constitution was the ONLY thing I believed in. In your opinion, then, a society should NOT care for the weaker members and simply allow them to starve off as in any one of a number of 3rd world countries? Is this your vision of the United States? Brrrrrrr. I know, private charity will take care of them.
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Would you find it acceptable to hold at gunpoint someone who chooses, for whatever reason, not to help out the less fortunate, until he changes his mind? Or is it only acceptable when you have voted someone else to do it?

And to stay on topic, I am a libertarian. As a Christian, I believe libertarianism is the only option that allows me to do freely as God requires. I believe it is the only biblical choice. And it is the choice I will make in November.

Diana
 
""I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

--Barry Goldwater back in 1964
 
I'm human and that's, that I feel what all prior posts to mine have said are all correct, we can't argue someone else's views or opinions. Everyone is entitled to put in there two cents. Now as far as politics go everyone opinion is non arguable except for the Presidents and any other politician. Because what I think or you think won't really effect people's lives, if i don't like Russia it really doesn't matter, but if the president and other politicians don't like Russia they can declare war for any dumb reason such as the Iraq issue at hand. and that effects peoples live now, so like previously stated I voted for Bush last time because I didn't like Gore's views and I'll vote for Bush this time because i don't like Kerry. Now as far as being a moderate yeah, ok just like Mike Irwin. :eek:



"Yes, I'd have to say I'm a moderate.

I still count myself among the Republican fold, but I strongly disagree with the party line on things like abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, and many of the "reforms" that are being undertaken in the name of national security. I was also adamantly opposed to going to war with Iraq and still believe it to be the wrong thing to have done.

I feel incredibly betrayed by George Bush, and am exceptionally disappointed in the past 4 years.

That said, I can never imagine myself voting for a Democrat because I am virulently against their platform on so many issues it's not even funny. "
 
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