County seizes son for medical care

Remember that people who abuse their children often refuse medical care for them, so they do not get caught.

So every parent who refuses to rush thier son to a doctor for an injury is a potential child abuser?

Thats like saying every gun owner has the potential to be an armed criminal.

I have no argument with taking people who are not mentally capable of making a decision against thier will. If the son was lucid and functioning and able to answer questions and said he was ok thats different.

So if you refuse to pay a traffic ticket and they send a police officer with a warrant to your house and you refuse him entrance there needs to be a SWAT Team sent in for everyone that refuses to.
 
Yes, what I am saying here is that the Paramedic in question had a reasonable belief that the child needed medical care.

It is reasonable to assume that a crime (neglect, endangerment, or abuse) is being committed if a child:

1 Has an injury which needs to be medically evaluated
2 The parent refuses to allow such evaluation
3 even when the govt offers to pay for it

Social services concurred, even though the parent in question issued threats against law enforcement, including the statement "Bring an Army." A judge, acting on their recommendation, issued a warrant.

That warrant was properly served by two deputies, who knocked on the door, and the parent refused to comply with the warrant. A SWAT team was sent. Tell me how due process was ignored or violated here? It is perfectly constitutional to do what they did, if they first obtain a warrant, which the police did in this case.
 
There is new info from this paper - The sheriffs view:

Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario defends decision
GLENWOOD SPRINGS - Use of the Garfield County All Hazards Response Team (AHRT) was appropriate to seize Tom Shiflett's son for medical care because of Shiflett's confrontational history and repeated lack of cooperation, according to Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario.

"I wouldn't have done it if I didn't think we would have been able to accomplish it with just the deputies we had on duty," Vallario said. "The end result of what happened was based on (Shiflett's) decisions, not mine."

The team used force to break into Shiflett's home Friday night in Apple Tree Park near New Castle, and seized his 11-year-old son, Jon Shiflett. The boy was examined and returned hours later with the recommendation to ice his bruises and take Tylenol.
More at the link.

The doctor(s?) at the hospital, evidently held the kid for observation for about 18 hours to make sure that the head trauma was non-life threatening. I don't think we can fault the medical staff for this. It was a reasonable precaution, given the nature of head wounds to children.

What appears to be at odds, are the descrepencies in the two "stories." That is, the story as told by Shiflett and that told by county personel.

A first responder with West Care Ambulance wrote in an affidavit that she and others in an ambulance crew also believed the boy needed medical treatment.

The responder wrote that paramedics left the residence for fear of their safety after Tom Shiflett refused to let them treat his son and became "verbally abusive" to the ambulance crew.
I would think the the above was also told to the Social workers. They went to Shiflett's home, the next day, with preconceived ideas as to the belligerence of the father and the actual state of the child.

The social workers didn't interview the owner of the park, who was there at the time of the paramedics, who said:
Talbott said he was there when paramedics responded, and that Shiflett was not yelling or acting abusive. He only asked them to leave, Talbott said, and paramedics were in fact acting belligerent.
Classic "He said, She Said" situation.

It makes one wonder at what the attitude of the DSS folks might have been, had the paramedics not reported the alleged abusive behavior of Shiflett.

If Shiflett was not combative or abusive as the statements by Talbott seem to indicate, then there was an abuse of power perpetrated first, by the responders and secondly, by the DSS people. This is further bourne out by what the paper reports:
Community relations sheriff's deputy Tanny McGinnis said two deputies were first sent to notify Shiflett of a court order for his son's medical treatment and that Shiflett did not comply.
Notice that Shiflett was notified of the court order. The CR Officer does not say that the warrant was presented. Ommission or fact? Shiflett was under no legal obligation to comply if the warrant was not presented.

Also notice that there was no mention that Shiflett was abusive or combative towards the deputies? The CR Officer would have reported this to the newspaper had that occured, I would think. I have no doubt that the paper would have reported such, since it has so far done an excellent job of actually reporting the entire event... Even to the point of reporting that Talbott is a freelance writer for the paper (full disclosure).

But in the second story by the paper, it is now claimed that the warrant was in fact signed and presented, that Shiflett became abusive with the two officers, that the officers left out of concern for their safety and the sheriff elected to use his CAHRT (SWAT) team to execute the warrant, based upon his own perceptions of Shiflett's past behavior.

A lot of unanswered questions remain.

As it is, I cannot find fault with the Judge or the SWAT team. Both were acting in good faith. That leaves the first responders, the DSS people, the Sheriff and last but not least, Mr. Shiflett himself.
 
There are times that Paramedics have a legal responsibility to ensure that a patient has the care that is medically necessary. Any of you that have been in an accident have heard the EMS people ask seemingly stupid questions. For example:

1 What day is it?
2 Do you know where you are right now?
3 Remember these three words for me: Dog, tree, bird. Repeat them back to me.
4 What is your name?
5 Who is the president?
6 Do you remember what happened?
7 What were those three words again?

These questions are designed to test the long and short term memory of the person. All the while, various things are being noted. How steady your stance is. Breath odor. Pupil reaction. Nystagmus. All of these clues tell the paramedic if you are competent to make decisions for yourself, or if you have an altered mental status.

If you are determined to have an altered mental status, you go. Even if you don't want to. In the case of a child, the medics can make the child go, even if you don't want them to. Especially if the parent shows signs of incompetence, and a host of other factors.

The fact is, medics force people to go to the hospital every day. In fact, I did it just last night to a man who was intoxicated and ran his car into a bunch of vehicles that were stopped at a traffic signal. He didn't WANT to go, but he HAD to go, because to allow an intoxicated person with a head injury to refuse could be the equivalent of signing his death warrant.
 
Divemedic, I'm not disputing a thing you're saying. In fact, I agree.

Neither am I trying to cast blame on anyone. If I was, my money would be on DSS.

What is apparent, is that the medics didn't think it was so serious that the child should be immediately carted off. At least, in my experience, the medics would have called the police for backup, if they had thought so, over the objections of the parent(s).

Perhaps it's different in Colorado. I don't know.
 
This whole case is an example of what you get when you empower government at the expense of the individual. Individual rights are what our system was meant to be based on, and whatever it has morphed into isn't what was intended long, long ago.

So, at one end you have anarchy (complete individual rights) and at the other end you have tyranny (complete collective authority over the individual). It is a sliding scale and it will move where we as citizens allow it to go - only because we still have a Constitution and can exercise our individual rights and responsibilities of voting out the miscreants that allow things like this to happen, especially at the local level.

As someone else once said many moons ago.....in a republic, the people get exactly the kind of government they deserve.....:rolleyes:
 
Then why was there such a long wait till the SWAT team descended upon the house if the medical danger needed immediate attention? I guess a person would tend to get confrontational after he has told them no and asked them to leave his residence for the umpteenth time.

I just dont understand some folks who dont understans the word No and want to argue with a person saying No. If the medic thought that the child was in danger like Anti said he should have moved off a distance got on the radio and gotten the court order then. Busting somebody's chops after they have said no is just adding fuel to the fire.

Some people just dont respond well to being told no.
 
It isn't always as easy as that. You all are assuming that the only rights here to be protected are the rights of the parent. Who protects the rights of the child? The parent does not always do so. In times like those, it is not a decision made lightly to remove the child for care.

If the child were in immediate danger, calling the law and forcing a standoff right there is EXACTLY what would have happened. In this case, it appears as though there was a concern for neglect. In less than 24 hours, a CPS worker visited the house, a judge signed a warrant, deputies attempted to serve the warrant/order, and then the SWAT action occurred. It isn't as if they were sitting on their hands. Many of you are blasting the cops for acting rashly, and using the fact that they acted too slowly as evidence.

Also remember that due to patient privacy laws (HIPAA), only one side gets to tell the story here.
 
I have no argument with the officers who were following the Sheriff's orders. Thats what they get paid to do. The Sheriff should get the fallout for any bad calls. Just seems strange that if it was such an emergency everbody decided it could wait till the next day.
 
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Antipitas said:
As it is, I cannot find fault with the Judge or the SWAT team.

I'm in complete agreement with you, right up until this point.

But I have trouble with the idea of sending a SWAT team on a no-knock raid into a house where they point their weapons at the children inside, for the sake of the children. I understand the rationale (the father was obstreperous) but I really think that was the wrong approach.

That said, I presume this was the Sheriff's call. But it still doesn't seem reasonable to me.
 
Working with Social Services is very frustrating. Most of the time the stuff that that is obvious they can't or won't deal with and the stuff in the gray area they jump all over.
 
If you understood the training that most social workers are fully indoctrinated left-wingers who believe that all proletarian peasants must be tightly controlled "for the good of the children". They get indoctrinated in college. Not all college professors are left-wingers, but they do tend to concentrate in art, English, sociology, and social work departments, as well as in journalism departments.
 
Actually, I know quite a few, and that is not the case. One of the things that bothers me on this board is how everyone who works for the government is automatically considered to be a left wing JBT whenever someone disagrees with them.

If you want to open your mind, I suggest reading this book. It is an eye opener. I read this book as part of a class on child abuse. Like it or not, most LEO, Firefighters, EMS, and others are not JBT's. They perform needed functions.
 
As a follow up:

Vallario has defended the decision to use the team in order to achieve the highest level of safety. He pointed out Shiflett was given opportunities to comply and that Shiflett has had a history of confrontational behavior, including chasing someone with an ax in 2005. Prosecutors dropped charges in that incident.

It seems as though this was not the first run in Mr Shiflett has had with the law.
 
Divemedic, why does it matter? I mean, do you really want to stand up and defend the decision to send a SWAT team into a house with 10 children, where they proceed to violate firearm safety rule #2 with said children, ostensibly for their own safety?

It's idiotic, and indefensible.
 
Look, that statement about rule 2 is immaterial to the issue. The "facts" here are all coming from one source- the axe wielding guy who lives in a double wide with 10 kids.

The police, social workers, and medics here are prohibited from speaking by privacy laws. You are only getting one side of the story. As a paramedic, I know that there are times when a medic CAN treat a patient against their will. I explained that already.

There are requirements under the law that require social workers to investigate possible child abuse and neglect.

The Judge signed a warrant. The Sheriff sent two deputies to try and resolve the issue. Shiflett sent them away. They came back with reinforcements.

Totally defensible. The problem here is that there is a large group of people here that are looking for reasons to slam cops, rather than looking at each issue in a reasonable way.
 
While I would never advocate not letting a child receive adequate medical treatment, I think as most here that things went way too far.

This stink to high heaven of a massive case of bruised egos.

How DARE that stupid citizen disobey our direct orders! Don't he know who we ARE!? Now we will show him whats up! We'll teach him whos really in control here!

So a emt, got pissed, and called cps. (if the medic truly thought the child needed treatment, SOP is to call in an officer right then, and take the person to the hospital)

So they get pissed at this "uncooperative citizen" and call CPS. You don't even whant me to get started on CPS. They have no checks and balances, no oversight committee, NO ONE to hold them acountable, or that they have to answer to. They have MASSIVE UNCONTROLLED POWER. (and we all know what that kind of power does to even the most well-intentioned people)

If CPS says jump, lawyers, judges, police, government officials, ALL JUMP WITHOUT QUESTION. They have NO Accountability. I was once told by an officer, "you better not piss off CPS, they can and will take everything you have, and there is noone to stop them, cuz nobody wants to get in the way of people supposedly "helping the children". These guys run it...trust me.
 
"So they get pissed at this "uncooperative citizen" and call CPS. "

Most likely they are REQUIRED to report thre incident to CPS.
Many states have laws that require doctors, nurses, and EMT/paramedics to report ANY suspicious cases involving children, and in some cases ALL cases involving children are at least reviewed.
Bring you kid to the ER and the chart will at least be looked at.
 
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