Country not ready for 3rd party!!!!

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Hank, your "logic" really puzzles me here...

You say, and I paraphrase:
"If we vote 3rd party we may just hand the victory to the Democrats.... Maybe the other side will realize that they need us...."

Is that a good thing? Handing over another four years of office to a bunch of rabid anti-gunners who would sooner see all of our guns melted into a giant dolphin than do a lick so seriously tackle crime? And all this "in the hope" of making the Republicans wake up and smell the coffee? That is like throwing $10,000 down a cliff in the hope that a curious spectator will give you $20 for the amusing event. If we ever go to war, remind me not to be in the platoon under your command! You would send us all to be mowed down "in the hope" that HQ would hang their heads in repentance and do better next time!

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Dennis, you argue your point passionately, but I could not disagree more with that fundamental premise that Republicans and Democrats are equal vis a vis the 2nd Amendment. Your justification is "show me a gun-law that was not supported by the Republicans".
Well, show me a pro-gun law that was NOT supported by the Republicans! Show me a Democrat who has passionately spoken in favor of the 2nd amendment in the past 8 years.

If your interest is more than just emotionally-based, just take a look at the current pro-and anti-gun bills pending in the House and Senate. ALL OF THEM are clearly, almost 100% cut along party lines, and by the way, I don't see no 3rd party actively promoting our gun-rights.

You forget that, even though Republicans have the majority in the house and Senate, Klinton is still in the White House, and he OWNS the media. The Republicans are walking a very thin line, here and not seeing that is voluntary blindness.

In your world of "all-or-nothing" politics, you will be on the losing side no matter what, because you won't be happy with any outcome. To you the Republicans are to the Democrats what the Japanese were to Hitler. Never mind all the honest and principled Republicans thanks to whom we haven't had to hand in our weapons yet. Are there some Yellow Republicans? Sure, like Liddy Dole.... Look what happened to her. And do you think that her statements about the 2nd amendment had nothing to do with her early demise? But to say that ALL Republicans are socialists is, forgive me, just plain BS. By the way, the official "socialists" are all within the Democratic party, just like all the other leftist kooks - militant gays and lesbians, the NOW, the Godless (who brought to you the current laws against prayer in school), the NAACP, the PETA who would like for you to be blown apart by your own ammo rather than seeing Bambi killed, the EPA, the trial lawyers who would gladly sue you out of your hunting socks, the various "civil rights" organizations like the ACLU..... ALL DEMOCRATS. If you equate this party to the Republicans, you may seriously reconsider your news-source.

You know what I find sad? That even us, who should be bound by a serious common goal, are tearing each-other to bits over who to vote for. And I include myself in the bunch, no doubt. And that's what the Democrats are good at. Sticking together. And that's why they win. And that's why I will vote Republican until a viable (yes, viable! by Golly!) better, different option pops up.

If we are serious about defending our 2nd Amendment rights, we whould all:

1) Belong to the NRA or to another pro-gun lobby. No, none of them are perfect, but neither are you or I. Doing otherwise would be serious hypocrisy.

2) BE REALISTIC when we go to the polls. The kind of Kamikaze attitude of Hank, although maybe "honorable" to the eyes of some, is seriously self-defeating.

3) If you want to bring about change, be active. Sitting in your chair and bitching has never won wars or battles. Call your congressman if you are not happy with him. Tell 1, 10, 100 friends to do so.

I know that I won't win me any popularity contest by writing this, but COME ON! You cannot treat politics like waiting tables - if you didn't get your refills fast enough screw'em all and I'll never come back to the Restaurant. That's a loser's attitude. And losing we will, not as Republicans or Democrats, or whatever else you may vote, but as decent citizens and gun-owners.

And, most af all, all you anti-establishment people, WHERE IS "YOUR" CANDIDATE?

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SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLVM

Constitution-RKBA=a weakened document!
 
Rigby, I'm a dues-paying card-carrying Libertarian. You ask, where's my candidate?

Simple, guy: we don't have one yet. And neither do the Republicrats.

If Harry Browne wins the nomination at our convention next year, I'll vote for him. If El Neil gets it, great. If Ron Paul decides to run under the LP or GOP, I may just reconsider my atheism :).

But what I won't do is vote for someone who's merely less anti-gun than someone else. Junior hasn't said or done anything to convince me that he backs RKBA 100% ("reasonable restrictions," anyone?), therefore, until he does, he will not get my vote.

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"Janet Reno is the fire that ignites my loins."
--Joe Cartoon
 
Okay, Rigby, I’ll call.

1) “Well, show me a pro-gun law that was NOT supported by the
Republicans! Show me a Democrat who has passionately spoken in favor
of the 2nd amendment in the past 8 years.”
- How many restrictions on the ownership and use of firearms have been
implemented during the reign of the Democrat/Republican party?
- How many restrictions have been repealed? What national pro-gun law did I miss?
- Do pro-gun laws outweigh the anti-gun laws? No way.
- As a kid, I walked into Western Auto, plunked down cash, left with guns
and/or ammo as I pleased. We can NOT do that now. The Democrats and
Republicans have taken those rights away from us.
- Such is the “success” of your Republican party “pro-gun” movement!

2) “If your interest is more than just emotionally-based, just take a look at
the current pro-and anti-gun bills pending in the House and Senate.”
- Proposals make good propaganda. Laws are law. Don’t talk to me about
labor pains. Show me the baby!
- The Republicans have made great promises (“Read my lips”) and have
broken them - “compromised” away our gun rights time after time.
- Oh, and yes, my interest is more than emotional. If YOUR interest were
more than emotional you would see clearly that voting Republican is
voting for gun control and the continuing infringement of our Second
Amendment.

3) “I don't see no 3rd party actively promoting our gun-rights.”
- www.lp.com
- Other folks can give you other sites....

4) “You forget that, even though Republicans have the majority in the
house and Senate, Klinton is still in the White House, and he OWNS the
media. The Republicans are walking a very thin line, here and not seeing
that is voluntary blindness.”
- The Republicans compromise away their power because their eventual
gun control goals are too similar to the Democrats’ goal of severely
restricting our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
5) “In your world of "all-or-nothing" politics, you will be on the losing side
no matter what, because you won't be happy with any outcome.”
- Really? If we continue to support the gun-grabbing Republicans along
with the gun-grabbing Democrats then you are right - I will not be happy
with the outcome.

6) “To you the Republicans are to the Democrats what the Japanese were
to Hitler. Never mind all the honest and principled Republicans thanks to
whom we haven't had to hand in our weapons yet.”
- Close, but like Gore - no cigar!
- Of course their are Republicans who are against gun control - just as
their are Democrats. But the fact remains that these two parties, working
together, have brought us to the controlled, unconstitutional situation we
“enjoy” today. It’s a fact, Rigby. You can not buy guns and ammo now
like I did forty years ago. If you can’t see the changes that have
happened over the years, then I understand your loyalty to the
gun-grabbers. Otherwise, Rigby, you are a mystery wrapped in an
enigma.
- And, frankly, Schumer may be honest and “principled”, but I sure don’t
agree with his desire to disarm all of us!

7) You then discuss many other worthy subjects. Again, as important as
these are, we must return our government to Constitutional rule if we are
to have any effect on these other subjects. If that means I must ally
myself with people who are for or against my other interests, I shall do
so. We must secure the “Keystone Amendment”.
- I equate the Republicans to the Democrats because they are peas in a
pod when it comes to gun control. Gun control, Rigby! That’s all I’m
talking about here!
- The only difference between the Democrats and Republicans is how
much risk they are willing to take to achieve their goals of outlawing the
private ownership of firearms.

8) By the way, I’ve been a life member of the NRA for over twenty years.
I’m a life member of LEAA and an annual member of five or six other
gun-rights organizations. I have letters to my Congressmen dating back
to the ‘60s fighting gun control. I’m doing what I can with the resources I
have available. Do the same.
- But I will no longer support those who advocate gun control because I
like their other opinions. That means I can NOT vote Democrat or
Republican.

9) Again, the reason we, as gun owners, have no champion is as simple
as supply and demand. We have not demanded a pro-gun leader.
Therefore there is no supply. I’m trying to create demand. You are
fighting for the status quo that nearly has disarmed us.

So go ahead and support your Republican. But don’t you dare accuse me
of merely sitting in my chair and bitching when YOU are voting for gun
control.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 21, 1999).]
 
Ipecac,

Let the games begin. If ALL of the third parties and fringe parties combined get 28% or more of the vote, I will send you $100.00. If they get 27% or less, you send me a check for $100.00, payable to the Make a Wish Foundation.

Dennis, I point out some of the differences between the two major parties, and you concur, yet then you say that doesn't matter. What is it, are they different or not?

As for gun control bills being passed with GOP support, of course they have had some GOP support! The GOP only has a ten vote advantage in the House and a ten vote advantage in the Senate. If six GOP Congressmen or six GOP Senators go along with a united Dem. party, then the Democrats bill will pass.

I challange you to name me a gun control bill that has passed with a MAJORITY of GOP support! I don't think you will find one.

What this shows me is that we need to elect MORE conservative GOP Congressmen and Senators. Enough that the numbers of conservatives will outnumber the 20 to 30 liberal GOP Congressmen and the 3 to 5 liberal Senators (mostly from the northeast) that allow the Democrats to pass their bills.

Then we need a Republican President that will sign the GOP bills. Voting for third parties will just assist AlGore in taking away all of our guns.

[This message has been edited by Cactus (edited October 21, 1999).]
 
Dennis, for some reason I pictured you as a yougster - I respect your time-honored committment to the 2nd Amendment and I wish that more people were as stick-to-itive as you have been.

I am a lot younger than you, and, perhaps, unfortunately for me, I didn't have occasion to see the downward plunge of gun-rights in this Country - but, I can assure you, I no more want another gun law than I want to lose a finger.

I also see your point, about your bitter disappointment at the current "regime" and their incremental gun-control, and I too wish, like you and many others, that we could elect a 100% uncompromising pro-gun, pro-2nd candidate.

But you MUST also see my point. Having only witnessed the political debate in the last 7-10 years, I have come to identify the Liberal Democrats as the greatest, most realistic danger to our Rights, because I see them every day on TV, in the Papers and on the radio ranting and raving about gun control, not counting the fact that, as a man of the Academia, I see them at work every day trying to poison young minds with Liberal mush.

And you must too understand my apprehension about the year 2,000. I REALLY don't want these people to win. I want to slow them down. I am truly AFRAID of seeing another Gore/HCI coalition in the last 8 years, I am afraid to see Schumer in bed with another Liberal president trying to erode away at our rights. If the Liberals were ever on the offensive, they seem to be on it now, and I have never seen the media more pro-Lib as I see them now. I just want anyone, including the Republicans to knock the political wind out of them for the time being. Is that so hard to understand? Is it so wrong to be a little more politically pragmatic than politically idealistic? Do you realize the unprecedented amount of tough gun control you are going to see if the Liberals get another term in the White House, in a short period of time? How bad and lowly is it to try and do something to stop that, even if one necessarily compromises one's purest ideals?

And I am afraid that any non-Republican vote could de facto go in favor of this bleak scenario. You must understand this. Maybe not agree, but you must see where a lot of us "less experienced folks" are coming from.

Believe me (and you seem to be deaf to this), I don't have any inherent libido towards the Republicans. I just see them as the most realistic way to stop the Democrats, who are my real fear, and I know that I am justified in fearing them.

But I too have not sat on my fanny. I know there are a lot of "moderate Republicans" and they are the ones that have helped the Dems compromising away our rights. I write and call almost every day, to ensure that my elected officials know that these chickens don't belong to the Republican party. So give me a break. Do you think that just by voting Republican I am
a) Dumb? Do you think I don't see what they do and what they don't do?
b) Non-idealistic? Do you think I will nestle in a cozy feeling of ease when/if it is the Republicans who take away my next gun?
c) Unrealistic? When I think that, as of now, there is a much better chance to kick out the moderates from the Republican party than it is to elect a third-party president?
d) Unnecessarily fearful? When I think that in the current political climate, with the Democratic front-runner actually RUNNING on a gun control platform, we run the risk of sending our rights down a dangerous, UNPRECEDENTED (and this is the key) slippery slope, where in the next 4 years we could be robbed of more rights than in the past 60?

Again, can you not see my point?

If not, there is no more reason for me to participate in this debate.
 
Dennis, 416;
Both of you make fine examples and points with your arugments.

Ultimatley, no matter how you vote, you will be ( I said "WILL BE" ) faced with an enevitable loss of your gun rights and freedoms. I guarantee it! The media is too strong for you to resist. It's efect is nationwide and extends into everyones living room. You both are argueing, discussing your views on a small website. This site reaches nothing when compared to the main media so your arguments will disappear into the lost long pages of time and irrelevance.

You will both, eventually, be forced to chose between pacifism or action in your belifes. Just what would you do to protect freedom of speech? Would you fight for it? Just what would you do to protect the ownership of arms? Would you fight for it? They are, after all, both constitutional guarantees. I promise, you will both be forced to choose as the powers that be are fractionalizing you both (and all gun owners) into obscurity. Stand up or lay down, you will be forced to choose and I think you both will lay down.
 
Frank, that is the "core" of the problem!!!!

The media! I hate them all with a passion, because they abuse, with the most condescending and tracotant manner, what is in fact the only "job" sanctified by our glorious Constitution.

Believe me, if I could round up a sector of society and rocket them all to Mars, it would be the National Press Club, Heraldo (or however the heck you spell his stupid commie name), King, and most of the stupid ABC - CBS - NBC - CNBC - colleagues. Lord, but I despise that lot!

OK, let's get constructive here. I know we have bashd each-other's views a lot, especially regarding the phantomatic 3rd party...... But what do you (Y'all) think we should do with the media and their shamelessly biased views, especially as regards our beloved 2nd Amendment?

Should we:
1) Boycott the sponsors?

2) Call in and bitch, harrass and refute?

3) Write in to the newspapers and ridicule the b**tards?

C'mon, guys, this should be something we all agree on! Let's get united and try and make a dent.

Any ideas?????

A very frustrated .416Rigby

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SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLVM

Constitution-RKBA=a weakened document!
 
Cactus,
1) “Dennis, I point out some of the differences between the two major parties, and
you concur, yet then you say that doesn't matter. What is it, are they different or
not?”

Yes they may have differences but I am restricting my attention to gun control -
the defense or demise of the Second Amendment and perhaps the entire Bill of
Rights and Constitutional law.

Though proposed Republican infringements of the Second Amendment may be less
draconian than Democrat proposals, Republican proposals remain unconstitutional.
This proves the Republicans no longer believe in Constitutional law. I will not vote
for either party when the majority of each party are liars and traitors to the
Constitution they swore to defend and uphold.

Furthermore, Republican leaders already have promised to INcrease their
unconstitutional legislation by advocating additional infringements and promising to
“work out reasonable compromises” with the Democrats. (Ref Senator Trent Lott.)

As we lose the Second Amendment, that Keystone Amendment, I truly believe most
of the Bill of Rights will be legislated into oblivion. Then any differences (real or
imagined) between the Democrats and their Republicans become irrelevant - our
government will make all our decisions for us - womb to tomb.

2) I understand your defense of the current Republican efforts. However, in the
past, regardless of which party was in the White House or which party was the
Congressional majority, gun control legislation became law and gun control
directives were created with the power of law (ATF regs, etc.).

3) “I challange you to name me a gun control bill that has passed with a MAJORITY
of GOP support! I don't think you will find one.” I won’t research this or argue the
point because your next comment proves this is irrelevant.

4) “What this shows me is that we need to elect MORE conservative GOP
Congressmen and Senators.”
- I agree we need more conservatives in Congress and (dare we wish it?) a
conservative in the White House. However, the Democrats have moved so far left
as to be truly in opposition to all things most of us (on TFL, at least) consider to be
American values. I’m upset because the Republicans have followed this great
political shift to the left. The Republicans are now more radical leftists than most
Democrats dared to be twenty years ago.

- I no longer believe that the Democrats and the Republicans are truly in
opposition to each other. Oh, they have their little pillow fights, but then they kiss
and make up, “compromise”, and gun owners are blessed with another little
“reasonable restriction for the children”. They play Good Cop, Bad Cop to their
constituencies and we all lose our Rights.

- Therefore, because I believe there are too few viable conservatives in the
Republican party, I must look elsewhere. It’s simple, really! Who determines who
may run for the Republican Presidential nomination? Those who run the Republican
Party. Sure we have token conservatives such as Alan Keyes, but do you think
Keyes really has Republican support? Personally, it looks like G.W. Bush is “a sure
thing” for the Republicans. The only question is, “Who will Bush’s Vice President
nominee be?”
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Rigby,
You thought I was younger? Gee! (blush! Rubbing my toe in the sand!) Thank
you! You really ARE a politician! :D :D

1) You make a very perceptive (and frightening) observation. My kids (ages 32, 23
& 22) don’t really understand why I’m so upset. They haven’t seen the amount of
change, the degradation of our gun rights, that has been implemented in the last
forty years. (chuckle) To use the “boiling the frogs” analogy, they compare “warm”
with “just a little warmer”! I started out when the water was cold so now it seems
pretty hot!!!!

Picture what it was like when the entire United States was very much like Vermont
or Arizona. Got a gun? Wear it (or carry it). No problem.

Once when I was 14 or 15, in Erie, Pennsylvania, my Dad and I went directly from
rabbit hunting to downtown Erie to pick my Mom up from work. Our car broke
down. We put the car in a garage and took the bus to Mom’s work so a friend of
hers could take us all home. We rode the bus in hunting clothes and each carried a
shotgun! Two guys with shotguns on a city bus at rush hour! True, they were
bolt-action shotguns so we took the bolts out and stuck them in our vest (in a
shotgun loop). But our vests also were loaded (visibly) with shotgun shells!

Nobody was scared of us. We even had dead rabbits in the back of our hunting
vests! Dad talked jovially about hunting with some of the other passengers - that
was it! Good Lord, what if we tried that nowadays!!!! Can you just imagine the
panic? Police, SWAT teams, helicopters, news teams, on and on!

I never questioned your loyalty to the Second Amendment, I believe you
completely. My anger is directed toward the government which has made gun
owners appear to be such a threat that we must be legislated out of existence. And
that government has been made up virtually 100% of Democrats and Republicans.

So you see, Rigby, I DO see your point. And I agree that, “the Liberal Democrats
[are] the greatest, most realistic danger to our Rights”. Sincerely, I agree
completely.

However, we disagree on the effect of Republicans on gun control. At best, the
Republicans will do at a slower pace what the despised Democrats would do at a
quicker pace. Therefore, I see the difference as death by the guillotine or death by
a thousand cuts - but death in either case.

I have supported the Republican cause until I just can’t take their lies any more.
The “frog water” has just become too hot! The hand on the heat control may be a
Democrat, but all the Republican is saying is, “Turn the heat up a bit slower,
please.”

If the Democrats win, I believe they may push so hard that this all comes to a head
- one way or another. If the Republicans win, that only confirms that their program
of appeasing the Democrats and enacting gun control laws will increase in speed
and severity. The difference is not so great as the Republicans would have us
believe.

You honestly believe the Republicans will “knock the political wind out of [the
Democrats] for the time being.” I really do understand your belief. But judging by
the loss of our gun rights over the last forty years, I just am not able to agree -
however much easier it would be for me to do so. ;) I have compromised my ideals
so many times to support the Republicans that I just can’t do it again.

Hopefully, if enough of us gun owners support a third party, either the third party
will win or enough Republicans will desert their Democratic gun control ideals to
become Americans again.

So compromise, Rigby. I understand your fear and loathing of Democrats - we
share that! You honestly believe the Republicans will help us. I understand. I
truly, “see where a lot of us "less experienced folks" are coming from.”

You see the Republicans, “as the most realistic way to stop the Democrats...”. But
it was Democrats and Republicans together who voted away our gun rights, who
implemented restriction after restriction upon us, poisoned the minds of our young,
destroyed our education system, sent young Americans to be killed without reason
or support, devalued our money, warped our judicial system, destroyed our
American values, and (worst of all) made gun owners something to be feared and
loathed.

So I hope you can see, Rigby, that I do not consider you dumb, non-idealistic,
unrealistic, unnecessarily fearful, or a shirker. I see your point. We merely
disagree.

So, in a calm, friendly manner, let me turn your question back toward you.
- You understand how gun owners have been degraded from a position of honor
and respect to a position of fear and loathing.
- You understand how both Democrats and Republicans participated in this
degradation and will continue to do so.
- You understand how the Second Amendment and the entire Bill of Rights have
been infringed upon severely by both major parties over the years.
- You understand that the Democrats may be a great threat to our freedom and
liberty.
- Can you understand that the Republicans have not stopped the Democrats yet?
- Can you understand that the recent Republican promises to work with the
Democrats on further unconstitutional infringements means that the Republicans
and Democrats are closer to each other than to the American people?
- If so, NOW can you understand why I can no longer support either of the parties
who have lied to us, tricked us, enacted unconstitutional laws and directives, and
deserted the Constitution they swore to uphold and defend.
------
Frank,
1) I understand your frustration and apprehension concerning our loss of gun
rights. But this is not the time for a call to arms - we still have the ballot box.
2) I’ve agreed with many, many of your opinions in the past, but this time you
have made an unwarranted assumption. “Stand up or lay down, you will be forced
to choose and I think you both will lay down.” You don’t know me well enough to
say that, Frank. So I suggest, let me say I strongly suggest, you don’t go there.
 
Cactus, you're on. Altho if I win, I plan on buying ammo. ;)

I thought the Republicans had a chance to show their stuff in '94, when they knocked the pudding out of the Democrats and took control of Congress, thanks to the efforts of some newcomers with passion and a desire to return to Constitutional government. Sadly, and predictably, the GOP brass decided to ignore the wishes of the voters and steered the party toward the "center". Hence their losses in '96. Had the Republicans shown that they were interested, as a party, in smaller government and strict adherence to the constitution we would not be having this argument today. As Dennis says, they abandoned us.

The Republicans have had their chance. No matter what they say, the work of the last 5 years is what their party is about: bigger government, more intrusive laws and regulations, more infringements of our rights. They've even managed to keep the most corrupt president in history in office, and impeach him for his most trivial offense. The GOP is either incompetent, stupid, or lying, take your pick, circle as many as apply.

The Democrats want big government, the Repubs do too, just a mite cheaper. The Democrats want more gun control, the Repubs do too, just a wee bit slower. The Repubs want National ID, so do the Democrats. The Repubs want to restrict free speech, the Democrats do too, except for federally funded talent-free "artists". Both parties conspired to pass forfeiture laws that enable to state to confiscate your property for mere suspicion of criminal behavior. BTW, Congressmen are exempt from forfeiture laws. If there is a difference in the parties it's a matter of degree, not principle. You can find members of either party on either, or both, sides of an issue.
Subtlety doesn't work with politicians. neither does begging, pleading, or cajoling. To get their attention you need money, or a big stick. You want status quo? Vote for Republicans or Democrats. You want them to change their ways? Vote for anyone else. Before it's too late.




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"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
As many times as we've rehashed this issue, I don't tire of reading about it.

It, however, leaves me between a rock and hard place.

I find the options of voting third party (Libertarian) and thus possibly assisting the enemy, or voting Republican (which is a vote against the Constitution) equally unappealing.

I know not which way to turn.

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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
 
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