Copper fouling
- Thread starter wjarrell
- Start date
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, it can. How much depends on how bad it is.
Get thee some Boretech Eliminator and some KG-12.
The Eliminator works faster but not as well. It turns blue though, which is very helpful.
The KG12 works slightly slower but better.
Use them both with plastic (or not copper/brass jags). Use the Eliminator to see if copper is present, use the KG12 to get rid of it.
As an aside that will be much disputed, I have always followed a barrel break-in procedure of cleaning after every shot for 10 shots and then cleaning after #15 and #20. I have never had a problem with copper (or any other) fouling in any gun I've ever owned. Someone else will tell you that break-in is voodoo. To each, his own. I'l never stop doing it.
Get thee some Boretech Eliminator and some KG-12.
The Eliminator works faster but not as well. It turns blue though, which is very helpful.
The KG12 works slightly slower but better.
Use them both with plastic (or not copper/brass jags). Use the Eliminator to see if copper is present, use the KG12 to get rid of it.
As an aside that will be much disputed, I have always followed a barrel break-in procedure of cleaning after every shot for 10 shots and then cleaning after #15 and #20. I have never had a problem with copper (or any other) fouling in any gun I've ever owned. Someone else will tell you that break-in is voodoo. To each, his own. I'l never stop doing it.
603Country
New member
I broke in the last barrel, and it shoots fantastic, but it was a high dollar barrel and it should shoot fantastic. I cannot tell you that a break in process helped or not. I just don't know.
As to the fouling, I was shooting that particular new rifle, which shoots remarkably well, and the groups were just not up to par. I guess I had 75 rounds through it since last cleaning. So I cleaned it (Boretech Eliminator) and it shot great again. That was a 260. My 220 fouls up after about 20 rounds. My 223 will go an easy 50 before it needs cleaning, but I can tell when it's time to clean. Most of the cleaning is carbon fouling. I don't get much copper out of any of the rifles any more.
But, if you want the copper out and you are using some of the ammonia based cleaners, get the Boretech and you'll find copper you didn't know you had. However...I have come to the belief that I don't want absolutely all of the copper out of the bore to get to best accuracy. Once I took all the copper out of my rifles about a year ago, I had to shoot a couple of them enough to lay down a bit more copper to get best accuracy back. A couple of them shot great without copper laydown.
So what I've said above is what I presently think. As with life in general, it's all a work in progress. I may well modify my thinking again, with time.
As to the fouling, I was shooting that particular new rifle, which shoots remarkably well, and the groups were just not up to par. I guess I had 75 rounds through it since last cleaning. So I cleaned it (Boretech Eliminator) and it shot great again. That was a 260. My 220 fouls up after about 20 rounds. My 223 will go an easy 50 before it needs cleaning, but I can tell when it's time to clean. Most of the cleaning is carbon fouling. I don't get much copper out of any of the rifles any more.
But, if you want the copper out and you are using some of the ammonia based cleaners, get the Boretech and you'll find copper you didn't know you had. However...I have come to the belief that I don't want absolutely all of the copper out of the bore to get to best accuracy. Once I took all the copper out of my rifles about a year ago, I had to shoot a couple of them enough to lay down a bit more copper to get best accuracy back. A couple of them shot great without copper laydown.
So what I've said above is what I presently think. As with life in general, it's all a work in progress. I may well modify my thinking again, with time.
Yes, copper fouling does affect accuracy but how much depends on the barrel. If you believe your rifles accuracy is being affected take it down to a "white" bore and start over. As stated above you may experience a period of inaccuracy until the bore has some copper in it but if you keep track of how many firings it takes you'll know next time what to expect.
Copper fouling tends to be "smooth" Lead is "rough" or "lumpy". Copper will actually "smooth" rough spots in the bore, to a point. This is why a completely clean barrel may shoot a bit better with some copper build up in it.
However, there is a point where the copper does degrade the accuracy. And it will be a different number of shots, in different guns & calibers. 20 shots or so, in many guns is where the change is usually noticeable. Some guns do better, some don't.
However, there is a point where the copper does degrade the accuracy. And it will be a different number of shots, in different guns & calibers. 20 shots or so, in many guns is where the change is usually noticeable. Some guns do better, some don't.
Bore Tech Eliminator and KG12 is about as good as it gets. I have a Model 70 that will foul badly with copper in only 3-5 shots. A judicious treatment with KG-12 followed by BTE to see how you've done, followed by 10-20 passes through the bore with a patch wrapped around a worn out brush (for the caliber) with a dab of Kroil on it and then rub in JB bore Cleaner. If all that doesn't get the copper out there's some serious problems.
Brian, if I may-- I have seen this posted repeatedly regarding the barrel break in procedure. What exactly does cleaning mean?? Hoppes #9 and a patch or BTE or JB bore paste or ??? Everybody says clean after X number of shots during barrel break in but never defines this.
Thanks for any help!
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
What it means to me is using the cleaning agent of choice and continuing until the patches are clean.
Here's an example of how my barrels DON'T get fouling/copper.
This is the first patch through my .204barrel after running it since last summer without cleaning. Remington Bore Cleaner.
This is three patches wetted with KG12 and 5 passes with the first two and 15 passes with the 3rd one. I did it just to see if there was any copper there.
I then ran two more at the same time with KG, let it sit for 5 minutes and ran the same 2 again, 10 times.
Not much there, eh?
This is after dozens of rounds since last cleaning, which I only did at that time to see if there was any copper.
This gun runs 32gr Vmax above max loads at near 4,200 fps, consistently 1/2 MOA or less.
Here's an example of how my barrels DON'T get fouling/copper.
This is the first patch through my .204barrel after running it since last summer without cleaning. Remington Bore Cleaner.
This is three patches wetted with KG12 and 5 passes with the first two and 15 passes with the 3rd one. I did it just to see if there was any copper there.
I then ran two more at the same time with KG, let it sit for 5 minutes and ran the same 2 again, 10 times.
Not much there, eh?
This is after dozens of rounds since last cleaning, which I only did at that time to see if there was any copper.
This gun runs 32gr Vmax above max loads at near 4,200 fps, consistently 1/2 MOA or less.
recoil junky
New member
My dedicated varmint rifles get a dose of Wipe Out foaming bore cleaner when we get home. You can leave it set overnight and then just a few patches on a jag until they come out "clean" You can use Hoppe's #9 or Shooters Choice after if you think you need to, but I never do.
I've forgotten and left the Wipe Out in for like a week? No worries mate, just put some Hoppe's or Shooters choice on a patch and clean as you would normally.
My 2 cents.
RJ
I've forgotten and left the Wipe Out in for like a week? No worries mate, just put some Hoppe's or Shooters choice on a patch and clean as you would normally.
My 2 cents.
RJ
I had a local smith clean my bore and do a trigger job on my gun last week sense I was out of town for work. He got the trigger down to 2.5 pounds, breaks pretty clean. I;m back to a one inch group at 100 yards. Maybe a tad less. First and third shot are in the same hole and second shot is just a bit above it.
bamaranger
New member
my .270
I've got a Wally World Rem 700 ADL in .270 that starts to go south after about 20 rds. A real pain. I keep it as it has the sweetest trigger of any 700 I've owned, and for the first box, is plenty accurate, maybe even exceptionally accurate. But after a box of shells or so,there is visible fouling and accuracy diminishes, noticeable.
Its gotten a bit smoother over the years, scads of polishing with JB, but it is not the rifle one wants to do a lot of practice with.
I've got a Wally World Rem 700 ADL in .270 that starts to go south after about 20 rds. A real pain. I keep it as it has the sweetest trigger of any 700 I've owned, and for the first box, is plenty accurate, maybe even exceptionally accurate. But after a box of shells or so,there is visible fouling and accuracy diminishes, noticeable.
Its gotten a bit smoother over the years, scads of polishing with JB, but it is not the rifle one wants to do a lot of practice with.
I like the effectiveness of KG-12 but it is a PITA to use because it doesn't readily get absorbed into the patch. It kind of sits on top and tends to roll off which makes things messy.
About the only way I've found around that is to start the patch in the breech but only just far enough to plug up the bottom of the barrel. Then, turn the rifle muzzle up and squeeze a little KG-12 down the barrel. Give it a little time to pool on the patch, then push the patch up to the muzzle. Have a rag handy around the muzzle to catch any that drips out (or let it hang over something that won't matter if it gets dripped on).
Like I said, a PITA but it works.
About the only way I've found around that is to start the patch in the breech but only just far enough to plug up the bottom of the barrel. Then, turn the rifle muzzle up and squeeze a little KG-12 down the barrel. Give it a little time to pool on the patch, then push the patch up to the muzzle. Have a rag handy around the muzzle to catch any that drips out (or let it hang over something that won't matter if it gets dripped on).
Like I said, a PITA but it works.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
That part is a pain. I solve it by dunking the patch in the bottle and wringing it out.
Goatwhiskers
New member
Bamaranger, read up on fire lapping. Sounds like your bore could benefit from it. GW
The work of cleaning the bore can be very time consuming. It isn't my favorite part of shooting but it must be done. I am sure that there will be disagreements on my process but here it is. First of all to get the black tar out after 50 rounds I will start out at home with two wet patches of #9, let it soak for no more than 5 min. mostly because I want to just get it done. Then push out the crud with med. tight patch's. Only at the range will that have a chance to work well. Although quite often at home more is needed. I will fallow with same 2 wet patches a few min apart with Sweets. Again push it out. I will use a brass brush If that doesn't satisfy me I will repeat with patches several times until it comes clean. It's time for some new solvents and I will be trying Boretech and KG-12. I shoot factory rifles so I don't believe the bores have been lapped so I will use JB. Now as far as accuracy and cleaning goes. Ounce in a wile I will use JB to restore accuracy. I would use some thing less aggressive if I knew what it was. But JB seams to do best. I will notice the patches will push through smooth with out hot spots (increase in friction) when I use JB. That is what I measure for clean. After my bore is clean I will run a jag through with Miltech oil then push a last dry patch. I am always open for a better way. Note:
Brian I sure like your clean patches.
Brian I sure like your clean patches.
I have used JB on newer, rough bores, but never on bores that are seasoned. Abrasives round off sharp edges on rifling first and that's not beneficial to great accuracy in the longer run.
If rough copper fouling is present, I use a clean bronze bore brush with Shooter's Choice or other cleaner that's not detrimental to bronze. The brush is cleaned with "Gun Scrubber" or brake cleaner sprays about every 5 strokes.
The only heavy fouling I've found in my bores came from using Barnes TSX bullets at near-maximum loads. Hornady GMXs don't do it in my .270 Win, so I use them instead.
If rough copper fouling is present, I use a clean bronze bore brush with Shooter's Choice or other cleaner that's not detrimental to bronze. The brush is cleaned with "Gun Scrubber" or brake cleaner sprays about every 5 strokes.
The only heavy fouling I've found in my bores came from using Barnes TSX bullets at near-maximum loads. Hornady GMXs don't do it in my .270 Win, so I use them instead.
green_MTman
New member
butch's bore shine is great,but yea it stinks